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What are the Renegades & Heretics looking like at a glance?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Maybe. Given what they've done with some shoot-twice weapons I was expecting 25 or 30 shots, not the full 40, but I'm not sure about giving up the extra wing slot for one Punisher.

(Though I'm also reading the Sabre searchlight as unplayably bugged until someone comes along and gives me an official version of that wording that makes a lick of grammatical sense.)

Calculating it, the Punisher would deal 3 wounds to a T8 3+ vehicle while AT loadout (Hellstrike, Lascannons) would deal 4.5. Against MEQ, the Punisher deals about 6 while the AT deals 2. It's maybe not as bad as it was at first glance, but it's still a very good value proposition.

What is wrong with the wording? Do you mean the select a single enemy model/friendly units that attack the chosen unit phrasing? If so, then yes that's a bit confusing against anything but single model units.


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 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
What are the Renegades & Heretics looking like at a glance?

At a first glance, I'd say that they are unappealing. They have Cultist units (basically the CSM ones) with the Uncertain Worth rule, then they basically have WS5+ BS5+ Sv 6+ Militia for 4 points each, with special weapons per 5 and heavy weapons per 10 (max 20 models per unit). They have two different types of veterans, with the Disciples only have 1 Special Weapon regardless of unit size, and Marauders having 2 but on a LD check have to roll a D6, on 2+ autopass on 1 remove unit as well as nifty special rule akin to veteran doctrines. Their Enforcers are Commissars but D3 instead of 1 on Execution, The Ogryns are pretty scary. Otherwise, they have Astra Militarum units with unchanged statlines.

Overall, I would say that they are worse than IG or DKoK, simply because their general units are worse while still costing the same (apart from the HWS being 3 pts for a loss of WS, BS and save). The loss of blast templates hurt their dirt cheap artillery since BS2 didn't really affect them, and now they can only take the same units as IG with BS4+. Worth noting is that the Faction Keywords are CHAOS and RENEGADES AND HERETICS, so you cannot combine them with Astra Militarum units in general, apart from the list above.

My thoughts in the FW IG units?

The searchlights are lit, Cadia calls for fire support!

Thanks Aenarion.

No real surprises there to be honest.

Anybody able to let me know how the arkurian pattern baneblades are?

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Anybody able to let me know how the arkurian pattern baneblades are?

You have the Stormblade, the Stormhammer and Stormsword.

Stormblade is Heavy 2D6 72"/96" S8/9 AP-3 D2/3 depending if you've overcharged or not, and 1 mortal wound on a hit roll of 1 if overcharged. Must have 1 set of sponsons, no more no less. The hull heavy bolter is only a single heavy bolter, not two weirdly enough. 400 points without sponsons.

Stormsword is the same as in the Index: Imperium.

Stormhammer has a twin battle cannon (2D6 battle cannon), Stormhammer Cannon (60" Heavy D6 S9 AP-3 Dd6 Roll two dice remove lowest for number of attacks, re-roll damage rolls of 1), co-axial multi-laser (if you fire this and the main gun at the same target, re-roll hits with Stormhammer Cannon), six multi-lasers and a Lascannon. Can change any multi-laser for a heavy bolter, heavy flamer or lascannon. 470 points with basic gear. Same body as other Baneblades.

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Anybody able to let me know how the arkurian pattern baneblades are?

Um. Is that the Arkurian Pattern Stormblade, the Stormhammer, or the Stormsword?

PUFNSTUF wrote:
Anybody able to let me know how the arkurian pattern baneblades are?

Stormblade: just plain bad. The main gun is worse than the Baneblade's gun in every way (same stats when overcharging except you can kill yourself, weaker stats when "safe"), you can't take the second set of sponsons or trade HBs for HFs (a primary reason to take Baneblade-class tanks), and you don't get the demolisher cannon. Why does this unit even exist?

Stormsword: as far as I can tell it's identical to the "codex" version. Not sure why this is reprinted here.

Stomhammer: it's the 30k tank brought into 40k. Main gun is pretty much a Baneblade's gun with "2D6 pick highest" for shots instead of 2D6, but the coaxial multilaser lets you re-roll to hit so it probably comes out even in the end. Double battlecannon in the hull mount instead of a demolisher cannon is probably a win. Sponsons are weaker (single LC/ML/HF/HB x6 instead of the twin HF abuse of the Baneblade) so that offsets the main guns a bit.


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 Aenarian wrote:
The hull heavy bolter is only a single heavy bolter, not two weirdly enough.

For WYSIWYG. The Stormblade model has a single HB in the upper gun mount next to the plasma cannon, not the twin HB in the lower hull next to the driver.

The R&H psykers look horrifically bad.
Someone convince me otherwise..

Peregrine wrote:

For WYSIWYG. The Stormblade model has a single HB in the upper gun mount next to the plasma cannon, not the twin HB in the lower hull next to the driver.

Alright, suspected as much.

Captyn_Bob wrote:The R&H psykers look horrifically bad.
Someone convince me otherwise..

What?

One power one deny, with the possbility of 3D6 on the roll and taking D3 mortal wounds. On perils, D3 mortals wounds but nearby models only suffer when the unit is gone. 3W each, 5+ invul. 20 points each seem reasonable. The Malefic Lord is slightly tougher and a character for 30 ppts instead as well as a funny interaction with Perils. The powers might be a bit lackluster, but not awful. So I wouldn't say they are horrifically bad. Compared to the Adeptus Astra Telepathica ones, I'd say only your powers might be slightly worse.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's way better because you're only considering the low end of firepower. At minimum you go from ~18 hits (BS 3 twin-linked) to 20 hits (BS 4+ 40 shots), but it's very easy to raise that firepower. Go into hover mode (now with only a +1 penalty to incoming fire) and you're shooting at BS 3+, for an average of 26.6 hits. And it only goes up from there now that IG have ridiculously cheap BS buffs. Each 20-point searchlight gives you +1 BS, so a 200 point Vulture is shooting at BS 2+ with 40 dice, averaging 33.3 hits per turn. Throwing in a Trojan for re-rolls is just overkill at that point.

That's not even particularly impressive - Necrons are already doing the same thing (or at least generating similar amounts of hits) with Tesla Immortals + an Overlord, both of which are practically mandatory.

The factional lists seem pretty bad though as they're stripped of random unit options, and the Macro rule looks ill thought through. No real reason these guns shouldn't just be Heavy, with unit specific rules to ignore move+fire penalty and doubling damage to titanic vehicles.

Necron and 'Nid stuff looks great; haven't had chance to go through the other bits yet. Titans are, thankfully, largely too expensive for normal games.

 Aenarian wrote:

Peregrine wrote:

For WYSIWYG. The Stormblade model has a single HB in the upper gun mount next to the plasma cannon, not the twin HB in the lower hull next to the driver.

Alright, suspected as much.

Captyn_Bob wrote:The R&H psykers look horrifically bad.
Someone convince me otherwise..

What?

One power one deny, with the possbility of 3D6 on the roll and taking D3 mortal wounds. On perils, D3 mortals wounds but nearby models only suffer when the unit is gone. 3W each, 5+ invul. 20 points each seem reasonable. The Malefic Lord is slightly tougher and a character for 30 ppts instead as well as a funny interaction with Perils. The powers might be a bit lackluster, but not awful. So I wouldn't say they are horrifically bad. Compared to the Adeptus Astra Telepathica ones, I'd say only your powers might be slightly worse.

Ok I've softened on the Lord, as 30pts for a smite guy is OK, It's just the R&H powers are far too hard to cast.
The psyker unit tho.. 100 pts for 1 power a turn.. I can't get behind that at all.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Ok I've softened on the Lord, as 30pts for a smite guy is OK, It's just the R&H powers are far too hard to cast.
The psyker unit tho.. 100 pts for 1 power a turn.. I can't get behind that at all.

I guess you could abuse the 3d6 ability to cast the last power. That would be pretty cool. But yeah, saw the 5 models minimum now.

Vulture lost vector dancer. That is sort of annoying, it was really fun to use. I guess with t7 and 14 wounds it is pretty tough though, so hover is decent. 160 points though, seems like a very good dead. Will definitely be bringing mine along.

I quite like the two vanquisher variants. One gets a bonus to-hit if stationary and the other gets a free durability upgrade and stubber. I mean, alpha vanq is the same cost as vanilla vanq, which seems weird. From what I see there is no way to use any of the new russes with tank commanders. I understand not getting Pask but I really wanted an HQ vanquisher.

Death Riders seem good but it is 160 for ten, which is a large investment. Would love to see someone field a large number though, would be an actual assault Guard army.

Overall, seems a bit rushed. I guess probably because it _was_ rushed, which led to the delayed release. Will have to wait and see if an Imperial Armour comes any time soon to fix the problems I have with it. I just wanted to run an HQ vanquisher with stubber...

 Trickstick wrote:

Overall, seems a bit rushed. I guess probably because it _was_ rushed, which led to the delayed release. Will have to wait and see if an Imperial Armour comes any time soon to fix the problems I have with it. I just wanted to run an HQ vanquisher with stubber...

I have to agree. It seems as if the Forge World team didn't get enough time to do everything they wanted to, and the team seems to be understaffed as is considering the release schedule we've seen. But some things seriously need some FAQ or errata. The Renegade Commander and Renegade Enforcer both lack the Character keyword. Guess who's HQ's are getting sniped? Well not mine, since the DKoK actually has the keyword.

In other news, the cyclops is a tiny little nuke. Look like it will be fun to hide the tiny model in terrain and then pounce, dealing 2d6 str9 ap-2 d3d auto hits to anything within d6 inches. Woe betide a foe who forgets you put one of those in a ruin and does a mass drop near it.

I dont think renegades are alot worse than normal guard, but i think you will have to run heavy mechanized or artillery to get value out of them. Then you put 20 man militia blobs with 4 flamers each in the front, combine that with tzeentch devotion and they will be excellent at protecting your heavy hitting units

So what are Shadow SPectres like now?

 ross-128 wrote:
Hold on, I just found something...

The Saber Weapons Battery.

"Defense Searchlight: If this model has a defense searchlight, at the start of each shooting phase it may select a single enemy model[sic] within 48" and line of sight. One friendly <REGIMENT> unit that attacks the chosen unit[sic] adds 1 to any hit rolls until the end of the shooting phase."

WE HAVE A WAY TO PUT +1 TO HIT ON ANY UNIT.

Granted, it's only one unit per searchlight, so it's kind of a quasi-Order. But we can put +1 to hit and make plasma weapons IMMUNE TO OVERHEATING! That's awesome! That thing hardly needs a weapon, it can pay for itself just by doing that!

Also, just think about how this interacts with plasma scions. Well, for one makes them immune to overheating of course. But you're still going to want to re-roll 1s. Why? Because remember, re-rolls happen before modifiers, and Scions hit on 3+. So, if they roll a 2, they get a +1 and hit. If they roll a 1, they re-roll it and probably hit.

This. Is. Awesome.

The only problem is, as I noted in the quote, it uses both "model" and "unit" to refer to your target. So which one is it? Even if "model" is correct and "unit" is a typo though, that's still amazing against vehicles, characters, and MCs, which will be the targets of overcharges anyway.

It really isn't.

1. Militarum Tempestus can't buy them. Neither can Elysians.
2. They aren't characters.

 ross-128 wrote:
Hold on, I just found something...

The Saber Weapons Battery.

"Defense Searchlight: If this model has a defense searchlight, at the start of each shooting phase it may select a single enemy model[sic] within 48" and line of sight. One friendly <REGIMENT> unit that attacks the chosen unit[sic] adds 1 to any hit rolls until the end of the shooting phase."

WE HAVE A WAY TO PUT +1 TO HIT ON ANY UNIT.

Granted, it's only one unit per searchlight, so it's kind of a quasi-Order. But we can put +1 to hit and make plasma weapons IMMUNE TO OVERHEATING! That's awesome! That thing hardly needs a weapon, it can pay for itself just by doing that!

Also, just think about how this interacts with plasma scions. Well, for one makes them immune to overheating of course. But you're still going to want to re-roll 1s. Why? Because remember, re-rolls happen before modifiers, and Scions hit on 3+. So, if they roll a 2, they get a +1 and hit. If they roll a 1, they re-roll it and probably hit.

This. Is. Awesome.

The only problem is, as I noted in the quote, it uses both "model" and "unit" to refer to your target. So which one is it? Even if "model" is correct and "unit" is a typo though, that's still amazing against vehicles, characters, and MCs, which will be the targets of overcharges anyway.

Wow, you guys got the (albeit for 1 unit) 5th markerlight effect for 20p??

 Vector Strike wrote:

Wow, you guys got the (albeit for 1 unit) 5th markerlight effect for 20p??

Superior Imperial technology and munitions will do that for you. It's not too late to submit yourself for voluntary mandatory extermination yet xeno.

Searchlights are t4 3w 4+, they are not going to lasting long. Trojans look a lot better. Expensive but they don't need LOS to use their ability. Stick them behind a Shadowsword and reroll all hits. Not bad.

Also, aren't stubber sabres supposed to have 4 stubbers?


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Thoughts on taking normal Hellhounds as Artemia Hellhounds? You pay 7 pts for choose 2 pick highest hits on the main gun. Seems like a good deal. Would anyone object if they saw a plain hellhound model fielded as an Artemia?

I'm interested in seeing how the Macharius ended up. Probably should get the electronic version of the index.

Trickstick wrote:Shoughts on taking normal Hellhounds as Artemia Hellhounds? You pay 7 pts for choose 2 pick highest hits on the main gun. Seems like a good deal. Would anyone object if they saw a plain hellhound model fielded as an Artemia?

I wouldn't object. It goes from 3.5 to 4.5 hits.

Justyn wrote:I'm interested in seeing how the Macharius ended up. Probably should get the electronic version of the index.

As usual a worse Baneblade. T8 W22, the Battle Cannon is Heavy 2D6 S8 AP-2 Dd6, has a twin heavy stubber and two heavy stubbers. 360 points. The Vanquisher has the same weapon with d3 damage or Heavy S9 AP-3 Dd6 pick highest when using AP shells, 375 points. The Vulcan is 350 and can shoot twice in your previous shooting phase if you didn't move this movement phase. Yes, that's what it says. Heavy 15 S6 AP-2 D2. The Omega has Heavy 2D6 S8/9 AP-3 D2/3 depending on overcharge, 1 mortal wound per roll of 1 to hit if you are doing that, 355 points.

All of them have the Steel Behemoth rule. And yes, buy the digital index if you want the rules. There are A LOT of errors, and they might update the Index if they ever get round to doing a FAQ document. The same cannot really be said for early printed books.

Is there anywhere I can buy a PDF/E-book version of these books?

Doctoralex wrote:
Is there anywhere I can buy a PDF/E-book version of these books?

http://www.warhammerdigital.com/

Haha so if I shoot in my previous shooting phase twice, does that kill you before you charged me last turn? Because I totally won't move to make sure you didn't charge last turn. What copy paste nonsense.

Justyn wrote:
Haha so if I shoot in my previous shooting phase twice, does that kill you before you charged me last turn? Because I totally won't move to make sure you didn't charge last turn. What copy paste nonsense.

I think that's the best error in the book. But we have some contenders with the Hierophant having BS3 (i.e. only hits on a 3), The Tiger Shark AX-1-0 which can only shoot its main weapons if it didn't move (which it must do as an aircraft), the Renegade Commander lacking the character keyword (i.e. dead to everything) or the Dimachaeron which gets 2x strength on a wound roll of 6, i.e. after it doesn't benefit from strength.

So I bought the AM book and looked through it for a bit. Few interesting notes.

Quartermasters are elites and not HQs.

We have Marshals and Platoon Commanders in HQ.

Combat Engineers can take 2 special weapons.

Death Rider Lieutenants are HQs now (you can do Napoleonic style infantry armies with mounted officers now!)

Combat Engineers can't take drills anymore.

Out of curiosity, do the loyalist knights in the Astra book happen to have the keyword "Adeptus Mechanicus"?