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 Weboflies wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Where in the FAQ does it say that? The only thing I can find is about a specific piece of terrain that provides cover as long as you're close to it.

I can't find a general case of "out of LoS = cover".

That's refererring to pg2. The part about units partially in cover. If a unit is now out of LOS then it's impossible for it to not be more than 50% obscured by the cover that's blocking the LOS, so therefore when it "gains the benefit of cover" (pg 2, question 4 paragraph 3), it must get a save mod, at an absolute minimum

So cover in the rules book (non advanced play) says you have to IN or ON the terrain. Not behind it. Not beside it not in front of it. IN or ON.

Now in the advanced section trees and ruins grant infantry cover if they are IN or ON them. And everything else cover if you are IN or ON them and 50% obscured.

So you nosing out next to building (that is not a ruin you are actually in) does nothing.

In the faq it mentions you might gain a save if enough models die in that shooting phase.

Ie 5 man tac squad 4 are in the treez 1 is not which means NO COVER. A unit shoots them deals 1 wound fails save and that one guy dies. Now everything else shooting at them they gain cover.

Seems odd at first then you realize most things will never have cover cept infantry.

 Weboflies wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Where in the FAQ does it say that? The only thing I can find is about a specific piece of terrain that provides cover as long as you're close to it.

I can't find a general case of "out of LoS = cover".

That's refererring to pg2. The part about units partially in cover. If a unit is now out of LOS then it's impossible for it to not be more than 50% obscured by the cover that's blocking the LOS, so therefore when it "gains the benefit of cover" (pg 2, question 4 paragraph 3), it must get a save mod, at an absolute minimum.

Your citation is talking about models "in terrain". Of course they would have cover. The thing I quoted from you is you saying models out of line of sight count as in cover. I don't see that anywhere.

Q: What happens when a model fires a weapon that
can shoot at targets that are not visible to it (such as
a mortar), at a target it cannot see, if the target unit
is within range of a piece of terrain that grants it the
benefits of cover only when it is obscured by a certain
amount from the point of view of the firer (such as a
unit within 3" of Imperial Statuary)?
A: The unit receives the benefit of cover.

That is specifically talking about being out of LoS and standing near Imperial Statuary.

Q: When determining whether a model benefits from
cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on
or within terrain, or just the model making a particular
saving throw?
A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially
on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive
the +1 bonus to their saving throw.
Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit
of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by
removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As
soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is
slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit
of cover.

Nothing about LoS at all.

There isn't anything that says out of LoS equals cover. If a mortar can't see you, and you're in clear ground, you are not in cover.

So this clears it up to some extent. No LOS: No permission to resolve(Step 4) an attack. LOS being present when the attack was declared is irrelevant. So much for locking in in Step 2. It's still not entirely clear how fast rolling attacks for a single weapon type plays out in regards to this. I've submitted a follow up q to the GW people.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/02/warhammer-40000-faq-now-available-july2gw-homepage-post-1/

Go down the page to "Stepping Into a New Edition" pg 1 bottom right

I was wrong on shooting attacks and had to re-read it several times.
I think some of you are missing under 4. Resolve Attacks - Attacks can be made one at a time, OR in some cases you can roll for multiple attacks together.

Under Fast Dice Rolling the only limiter is all the attacks must have the same BS or WS, S, AP, and D.

So to keep it short and sweet. Shooting attacks made at the same time happen at the same time, and wounds are assigned regardless of LOS.
However say you have 9 bolters, and a plasmagun but the models only have LOS to 1 enemy model. You choose to fire the plasma first, he assigns the wound to the visible model, and it is slain. At that point the bolters cannot fire as they no longer have LOS to the target unit. Or vice versa if he fires the bolters, and kills 2 models and the owning player removes the visible model the plasmagun can no longer fire as it has no LOS.

In units with models out of cover he can remove out of cover models, and then take bonus saves to models in cover. It does however force him to assign wounds to the models not in cover first until they die which might not be models he wants to die so it's his choice. IE If it's his vet sgt with a power fist he may opt to assign the wound to a model in cover and not get the cover bonus. If it's 3 ork boys out of 30 ork mob he's probably going to assign wounds, and lose the 3 out of cover first, and take the +1 armor to the rest.

Wagguy80 wrote:
However say you have 9 bolters, and a plasmagun but the models only have LOS to 1 enemy model. You choose to fire the plasma first, he assigns the wound to the visible model, and it is slain. At that point the bolters cannot fire as they no longer have LOS to the target unit. Or vice versa if he fires the bolters, and kills 2 models and the owning player removes the visible model the plasmagun can no longer fire as it has no LOS.

False. You check to see if you have line of sight at Step 2 of the Shooting phase, however when you go to fire your next ranged weapon in the unit you only go back to Step 3. What leads you to believe you must reestablish line of sight for each and every ranged weapon?

 Ghaz wrote:
False. You check to see if you have line of sight at Step 2 of the Shooting phase, however when you go to fire your next ranged weapon in the unit you only go back to Step 3. What leads you to believe you must reestablish line of sight for each and every ranged weapon?

Check the link I supplied 3 posts up pls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wagguy80 wrote:
I was wrong on shooting attacks and had to re-read it several times.
I think some of you are missing under 4. Resolve Attacks - Attacks can be made one at a time, OR in some cases you can roll for multiple attacks together.

Under Fast Dice Rolling the only limiter is all the attacks must have the same BS or WS, S, AP, and D.

So to keep it short and sweet. Shooting attacks made at the same time happen at the same time, and wounds are assigned regardless of LOS.
However say you have 9 bolters, and a plasmagun but the models only have LOS to 1 enemy model. You choose to fire the plasma first, he assigns the wound to the visible model, and it is slain. At that point the bolters cannot fire as they no longer have LOS to the target unit. Or vice versa if he fires the bolters, and kills 2 models and the owning player removes the visible model the plasmagun can no longer fire as it has no LOS.

In units with models out of cover he can remove out of cover models, and then take bonus saves to models in cover. It does however force him to assign wounds to the models not in cover first until they die which might not be models he wants to die so it's his choice. IE If it's his vet sgt with a power fist he may opt to assign the wound to a model in cover and not get the cover bonus. If it's 3 ork boys out of 30 ork mob he's probably going to assign wounds, and lose the 3 out of cover first, and take the +1 armor to the rest.

I think this is a correct reading of the rules as they stand, although it doesn't say anywhere that attacks rolled together are considered to happen at the same time. That point is quite ambiguous. I'm not sure the way Fast rolling has the ability to change the potential results was the designer's intent though. Barring some clarification from them, I think all we're left with is to do it the way you've outlined here.

 Weboflies wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
False. You check to see if you have line of sight at Step 2 of the Shooting phase, however when you go to fire your next ranged weapon in the unit you only go back to Step 3. What leads you to believe you must reestablish line of sight for each and every ranged weapon?

Check the link I supplied 3 posts up pls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wagguy80 wrote:
I was wrong on shooting attacks and had to re-read it several times.
I think some of you are missing under 4. Resolve Attacks - Attacks can be made one at a time, OR in some cases you can roll for multiple attacks together.

Under Fast Dice Rolling the only limiter is all the attacks must have the same BS or WS, S, AP, and D.

So to keep it short and sweet. Shooting attacks made at the same time happen at the same time, and wounds are assigned regardless of LOS.
However say you have 9 bolters, and a plasmagun but the models only have LOS to 1 enemy model. You choose to fire the plasma first, he assigns the wound to the visible model, and it is slain. At that point the bolters cannot fire as they no longer have LOS to the target unit. Or vice versa if he fires the bolters, and kills 2 models and the owning player removes the visible model the plasmagun can no longer fire as it has no LOS.

In units with models out of cover he can remove out of cover models, and then take bonus saves to models in cover. It does however force him to assign wounds to the models not in cover first until they die which might not be models he wants to die so it's his choice. IE If it's his vet sgt with a power fist he may opt to assign the wound to a model in cover and not get the cover bonus. If it's 3 ork boys out of 30 ork mob he's probably going to assign wounds, and lose the 3 out of cover first, and take the +1 armor to the rest.

I think this is a correct reading of the rules as they stand, although it doesn't say anywhere that attacks rolled together are considered to happen at the same time. That point is quite ambiguous. I'm not sure the way Fast rolling has the ability to change the potential results was the designer's intent though. Barring some clarification from them, I think all we're left with is to do it the way you've outlined here.

You continue to willfully ignore the published steps for shooting and say that it is 'not RAW' to actually follow them.

Nothing in the ruling you quote in 'stepping into the new edition' PDF says to ignore or change the steps for shooting as written in the rulebook. All they are answering is whether or not it is possible for an attack to kill a model that is out of range and/or line of sight of the model firing, and the answer to that is: YES, but it does not say that for each model you suddenly go back to step #2 and re-check range and line of sight after each model has finished firing.

Again, the rules for shooting lay out steps for the UNIT to follow. You check range and line of sight for every model in the unit during step #2. Once you get to step #4 (resolve attacks), you have finished checking range and line of sight for all models in the unit, and now its simply about rolling dice and inflicting casualties. Step #4 is the ONLY place that you make your attacks one by one. Steps #1-3 are for the entire unit (even though you are checking range and line of sight for each firing model).

I get that this can be difficult going from one edition to another, but this isn't rocket science. Just watch GW's live streams or anyone playing the game, its relatively simple, and its all in the RAW in the rulebook.

 Weboflies wrote:
So this clears it up to some extent. No LOS: No permission to resolve(Step 4) an attack. LOS being present when the attack was declared is irrelevant. So much for locking in in Step 2. It's still not entirely clear how fast rolling attacks for a single weapon type plays out in regards to this. I've submitted a follow up q to the GW people.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/02/warhammer-40000-faq-now-available-july2gw-homepage-post-1/

Go down the page to "Stepping Into a New Edition" pg 1 bottom right

You shoul actually read that pdf.

This specific question comes up and the answer is that you do not need los or range for wounding models in a target unit.

"Q: Can you wound models in a target unit that are not visible to the firer or are beyond its maximum range?

A. Yes"

This didn't even need the FAQ.

Section 3 under shooting addresses whether your models in a mixed weapon unit fire in sequence or together. The paragraph ends with "resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next." Not all the shots from one weapon, all the shots for the models shooting.

Section 4 has you rolling with all the models in the unit, no mention of segregating weapon types.

The FAQ then goes on to say that wounds can be applied to models out of los just to make it that much more clear that yes, all of the units shots are resolved against one target before moving on to the next.

The problem is weboflies simply has no reading comprehension.

He keeps posting the FAQ on how you resolve shooting focused on the word resolve even though the FAQ clearly states that the wounds need not come from an in range/los model.

He has posted link or image of the rules as intended as proof that he is "right" but they shoe him wring by anyone who can actually read and parse a sentence.

I think what people tend to forget like with the cover rule needing all models to be in cover is that units can split-fire and other units are waiting to shoot as well.
So at the beginning of a shooting phase, an opponent can intentionally pull models out of cover off to give the unit a better save if another unit shoots at it.

We are not doing the old wound pool as pointed out.
If you look at the examples, coloured dice were used as well to differentiate weapons.
I have a bunch of different colours (used them for Battletech) so I can roll for all weapons at once (and consistently use the same colour for each weapon type: white standard weapon, green plasma, blue lascannon/power weapon, red melta, Black heavy bolter... etc.).

It is clear you need to check for who has range and who is shooting and then you can roll for the whole wad and your opponent gets to choose who gets pulled off the table from that unit (out of line of sight or range or not).

I thought this method was rather simple and makes things go fast (I encourage my opponent to roll my "remaining" dice for their saves so they know the armor shift).

You guys are all missing the point. All the rules mentioned here explain how to resolve single attacks, one by one. Rolling together in this situation alters the result, and bearing in mind the way that cover saves work vis a vis wound allocation, and the first paragraph of "Fast Dice Rolling", it seems to go against the intent of the rules.

Furthermore as per the "Stepping Into" doc, everyone's assertion that LOS is only required at Step 2 is demonstrably false.

My question isn't reall about how shooting works, it's just about how Fast Rolling is meant to interact with it.

I don't really care at this point, I've already submitted the q to GW anyway, and it's only their say on it that matters.

 Weboflies wrote:
You guys are all missing the point. All the rules mentioned here explain how to resolve single attacks, one by one. Rolling together in this situation alters the result, and bearing in mind the way that cover saves work vis a vis wound allocation, and the first paragraph of "Fast Dice Rolling", it seems to go against the intent of the rules.

Furthermore as per the "Stepping Into" doc, everyone's assertion that LOS is only required at Step 2 is demonstrably false.

My question isn't reall about how shooting works, it's just about how Fast Rolling is meant to interact with it.

I don't really care at this point, I've already submitted the q to GW anyway, and it's only their say on it that matters.

Please, PLEASE go back and reread the end of the section 3 paragraph. It is perfectly, crystal clear. You resolve all shots. Not all shots per weapon, all shots.

You can roll all at once or seperately for the 9 bolters and the plasma. It doesn't matter for hits and wounds because you "resolve all shots".

You can roll the saves in such a way that models gain a cover save that wasn't there before, as per the faq, but you must resolve all shots. You have to resolve all shots, even against models that aren't in line of sight, as per the faq. Even without the faq, nothing in section three tells you to resolve only some shots. It doesn't tell you to resolve one set first, then resolve another set of plasma.

It says that you must resolve all shots for that unit.

Man GW's writing I got re-confused and had to re-read and study it a dozen more times. Here's the end of the debate.

Nothing forces you to do anything 1 at a time, nothing. So you can literally check range, and LOS for every model in a unit against the target unit, and they attack the target unit.

The attacks are only being RESOLVED 1 at a time or in groups per fast dice rolling. Resolution means something has already happened.

IE all the attacks from a single unit happen at the same time. Steps 1 - 3 are simply figuring out who can, and will attack. Once you hit step 4 it's just RESOLVING those attacks.

So you cannot pull a guy in LOS to deny him the rest of his attacks. Nor can you pull a guy from a bolter wound so his flamer no longer has range.
The same goes for the Fight phase. You cannot pull some guys from regular wounds to deny his Vet Sgt his power weapon attacks.


Edit: This also means if the entire unit did not get a cover bonus when they were attacked none of them get a cover bonus. If another unit attacks them after and now they are all in cover they will get the cover bonus.

Some of you guys seem confused about the fact that you are absolutely not permitted to roll different weapon types together. I encourage you to read the rules again in their entirety.

Anyhow, that's enough of this for me. Bye!

Are we sure weboflies isn't reading the 7th BRB?

It's pretty obvious. The rules explicitly state when checks, selections, actions and dicerolls are done. Range/LOS is done in step 2. All subsequent actions, from rolling to hit to rolling to wound to allocating wounds to modifying saves to taking saves are done after that in subsequent steps, and there is absolutely nothing that says Step 2 -- LOS/Range checks -- need to be repeated, redone or rechecked.

And as per the Stepping Into FAQ:

Q. Can you wound models in a target unit that
are not visible to the firer or that are beyond its
maximum range?
A. Yes.

zverofaust wrote:
Are we sure weboflies isn't reading the 7th BRB?

It's pretty obvious. The rules explicitly state when checks, selections, actions and dicerolls are done. Range/LOS is done in step 2. All subsequent actions, from rolling to hit to rolling to wound to allocating wounds to modifying saves to taking saves are done after that in subsequent steps, and there is absolutely nothing that says Step 2 -- LOS/Range checks -- need to be repeated, redone or rechecked.

And as per the Stepping Into FAQ:

Q. Can you wound models in a target unit that
are not visible to the firer or that are beyond its
maximum range?
A. Yes.

He might just be reading the Torah and thinking it is the 8th edition brb+various FAQs.

At least, that is the level of comprehension he is showing for whatever it is he is reading.

 Weboflies wrote:
Some of you guys seem confused about the fact that you are absolutely not permitted to roll different weapon types together. I encourage you to read the rules again in their entirety.
Anyhow, that's enough of this for me. Bye!

What? Prevent me from using my various different coloured dice??
They only separate the rolls so you do not get to pick a non-differentiated roll as one for a unique weapon.
All the attacks and need to be resolved from all weapons before you start pulling off models so there is little difference.

Rules do not allow to roll different weapons together. All weapons are supposed to be fired one by one. The rules gives you the option to fire several weapons simultaneously just if they have the same stats (except for range), so you can fire bolt guns and bolt pistols together, but not bolt guns and plasma together. Of course, in some cases you can roll them at the same time because it is not relevant to the outcome, but that's between you and your opponent.

Actually the order in which weapons are fired can be very relevant. For example, if I shoot a lascannon and two bolters into a unit with 3 wound models, one of which has one wound left, I should shoot one bolter first and then, depending if they suffer the wound or not, fire the second bolter or the lascannon, to maximise damage. The fact that command rerolls exist means that, in most cases, the order weapons fire will be relevant.

Seizeman wrote:
Rules do not allow to roll different weapons together. All weapons are supposed to be fired one by one. The rules gives you the option to fire several weapons simultaneously just if they have the same stats (except for range), so you can fire bolt guns and bolt pistols together, but not bolt guns and plasma together. Of course, in some cases you can roll them at the same time because it is not relevant to the outcome, but that's between you and your opponent.

Actually the order in which weapons are fired can be very relevant. For example, if I shoot a lascannon and two bolters into a unit with 3 wound models, one of which has one wound left, I should shoot one bolter first and then, depending if they suffer the wound or not, fire the second bolter or the lascannon, to maximise damage. The fact that command rerolls exist means that, in most cases, the order weapons fire will be relevant.

Interestingly enough, if it wasn't for the Fast Dice Rolling rule, there would be no indication of Weapons being fired one by one or all simultaneously. The standard sequence does not address it at all.

But it is there, so that is a consideration.

More to the point, there is no statement which confines all shooting to being one point in time or in the sequence you roll it. We just know everything has to be declared before the actual "Resolve Attacks" step is performed.

It seems as though this topic has run its course. Locking now.