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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




I have only played one game so far against GK. I destroyed his entire army except for his dual auto cannon venerable dread. My killa kans worked overtime. They're really good. Paladins got their heads chopped off by kans.

Record:

8th edition:
Tyranids: 5-4-3
Orks: 4-2-1

5th edition

Orks:18-5-1
Tyranids: 17-10-4

6th edition

Tyranids: 6-4-1
Orks: 3-1-0 
   
Made in se
Waaagh! Warbiker





Sweden

I have a 2000pts game tomorrow and i will try a mechanised list, will leave all the fun units at home and just fill up the battle wagons and trukks with boyz.

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Grimskul wrote:
 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
So 20 burnas in a wagon. Do you get out,


I think it depends on the target. Generally speaking, I would say just burn people up from inside the wagon if possible simply because of how fragile burna boyz are. If you do charge them in, it would only be instances where you need to clear off a unit from an objective and if you do, ensure that they go first for sequencing who attacks since you don't want your opponent to use the countercharge stratagem to take a fair bit of them down first.


I think this is the big problem in how people are using Burnas now. They suck driving around and shooting, because they pay points for the melee profile of the burna, that nice AP value. Burna Boyz have to be used as a more glass-cannony version of Boyz that do actual damage. I've liked them popping out of a trukk with the trukk eating overwatch, that's been fairly successful, and I like them in kommando squads as they are the only actual melee damage upgrade we can give the boyz. a 10-man kommando squad without burnas is kind of stuck attacking GEQ and will bounce off of MEQ because they survive the first round then punch back with Bolt Pistols on their turn. A 10-man squad with 2 burnas generally kills a couple more MEQs.

though if you're running 5-man kommando squads just to tie up tanks and things, rokkits are far superior upgrades.

As to the OP...don't forget you're learning a whole new game system WHILE you're also trying to figure out how things work. Don't make the mistake of attributing things you do wrong to problems with the system. I've seen people saying stuff like "my mechanized marine army sucks now because everyone charges the tank line and then nothing can shoot!" or "My dark eldar army sucks because 30 boyz dajump'd at me and a bunch of my stuff died and got tied up!"

There are new golden rules to army list building, and from the ork side of things the new rule is that you will get to melee a lot more easily, but you will not do as much damage when you get there, and if you don't take steps to minimize overwatch you will be sad.

If you run walking orks? Either Da Jump them or bring distraction squads of kommandos, trukk boyz etc to draw your opponents attention and a couple walkers to soak up nasty overwatch. If you play mechanized orks, clowncar in some killier units, don't just bring boyz and rely on that lone klaw to do your work for you, and don't forget to soak the overwatch with the trukk itself.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 jhnbrg wrote:
I have a 2000pts game tomorrow and i will try a mechanised list, will leave all the fun units at home and just fill up the battle wagons and trukks with boyz.


what fun units are you talking about?
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 jhnbrg wrote:
I have a 2000pts game tomorrow and i will try a mechanised list, will leave all the fun units at home and just fill up the battle wagons and trukks with boyz.


heh, you're going to have a terrible time then. The fun units are what's good in trukks and wagons. Boyz aren't particularly worth it unless you can at least make some attempt to get them to 20+, which you're not doing if you're aboard a wagon or trukk.

Don't get me wrong, trukk shoota boyz aren't particularly horrible, but they're nothing inspiring. I've just been filling my transports with a variety of different units to great effect. Basic nobz (as long as you're not playing PLs, the point spread on nobz makes 99% of nob units terrible in PLs because you're paying for the fact that you *could* have all five with like Power Klaw/Kombi Scorcha/Cybork Body), Meganobz, Tankbustas, Flash Gits, etc have all been absolutely amazing for me in a mechanized list.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





the_scotsman wrote:




There are new golden rules to army list building, and from the ork side of things the new rule is that you will get to melee a lot more easily, but you will not do as much damage when you get there, and if you don't take steps to minimize overwatch you will be sad.



I keep seeing people say that orks will not do as much damage in melee as previously. I'm not sure why that is the case, it really depends on the target. In general I would argue that we do more damage than previously.

Against things that were WS 3 or lower previously you might be right, but in general the ability to hit on 3+ all the time makes up the difference for the extra attack, and against T6 and 7 we do more damage, further on non-charge rounds we are straight better across the board, we are also better in any multi-charge scenario.


Lets use a couple of examples of 30 boyz

against 50 conscripts
in 7th 4.6 orks die in overwatch, then conscripts strike first killing 7 more orks. So lets give the orks a boost and say only 11 die. So 19 orks remaining, swing 76 times killing 22 conscripts. (assuming no sweep because commissar)
in 8th 4.6 orks die in overwatch, then orks swing (lets say 5 died, to give 7th the advantage) so 25 boyz swing 100 times, killing 22 conscripts. Then the remaining 28 conscripts swing, killing 3 orks. One more conscript dies to morale.

So Orks killed exactly the same amount of models, assuming advantage 7th, and lost 3 fewer models.

Against 10 Tactical marines.
in 7th 1.67 orks die in overwatch, then marines swing first killing 2.29, so lets say 4 orks die, now 26 orks swing (104 attacks), killing 8.7 marines. 1 marine likely survives.

In 8th 1.39 orks die in overwatch, then 29 Orks swing, killing 9.333 marines. 1 marine swings back, killing a second ork (0.56 orks), then dies in Morale.

Against T5 and WS 4
7th = 20 wounds Presave (assuming all orks attack)
8th = 20 wounds Presave (assuming all orks attack)

T6/7 Ws 4
7th= 10 wounds
8th = 20 wounds

T8+
7th = 0 wounds
8th = 10 wounds.


So baring lucky sweep rolls orks kill more now (given ideal 7th conditions) than in 7th. 7th had more upside (more attacks = lucky rolling is more devastating), 8th has more reliability. In any round past the charge round 8th is killier by far, in any situation which would have been a disordered charge (charging multiple units) 8th is much killier.

I also just realized my math on 30 boyz in 8th doesn't even include their bonus attack.

I would also say that given the ways to boost overwatch in 7th, it was worse for orks then than it is now. Unless you fail multiple charges against the same unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 12:27:04


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Hordes have definitely gone up in killiness and utility cause you can bunch up and pile in to other targets.
But some stuff has lost the punch - like meganobz that have become almost twice less damaging than before and can't really deal with vehicles effectively - like they could.
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Pittsburgh

Ya if you are paying for burnas you need to use that ap-2. Stay in the transport until you get close to the heavier infantry then jump out and get them. I know for a fact that boys kill more necrons than they used to. Its still hard to completely wipe out a 20 man unit though.

My Armies:
Orks about 15000-16000 mostly unpainted but slowly being worked on
Militarum Tempestus about 2000 points just built
Inquisition about 2000 points unpainted
Officio Assassinorum 570 unpainted
I dont paint quickly 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 koooaei wrote:
Hordes have definitely gone up in killiness and utility cause you can bunch up and pile in to other targets.
But some stuff has lost the punch - like meganobz that have become almost twice less damaging than before and can't really deal with vehicles effectively - like they could.


Are you looking at point for point in this case?

Old Meganobs were about 14 points cheaper than they are now.

On the charge against marines

7th meganobs (assuming no losses) got 4 attacks each at S9, so 2 hits, and likely 2 wounds (1.67 to be exact)
8th meganobs get 3 attacks each at S10, so 1.5 hits and 1.04 wounds. So they are 0.63 wounds less per nob at a price increase. If you pay extra for the killsaws they do the same damage but are 23 points more each.

Anything with a power klaw took a hit when compared to 7th because they give up the charge attack, and the change to a 3+ to hit. Especially in the case of something like meganobs that reliably could expect to live to I1, this hurts as the -1 to hit is a bigger downside than I1 attacks were.

This is a little less true against things that would have struck them first in combat and ignored their armor.

But most units can reliably expect more melee damage than they previously would or at least the same.



   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu




Southern California

If you are sending manz Into combat against marines your doing it wrong. High toughness multi wound models are their target.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
If you are sending manz Into combat against marines your doing it wrong. High toughness multi wound models are their target.


https://imgur.com/YEJZdPI

ERJAK wrote:


The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 cranect wrote:
I like putting 20 burnas in a wagon. They have done pretty well so far for me. Of course ice only fought against crons with my orks. Both times both burnas and the orkanauts were the big hitters. The boys just tied up units until those two could get to them.


Shoota Boyz are better then Burnas at ranged combat. For the same points cost you can field 9 Burna Boyz OR 21 Shoota Boyz. Even at close range Burnas will get 18 hits and against T4 they will get 9 wounds

Shoota boyz get 42 shots 14 hits and 7 wounds. The difference? Shoota boyz have 10inches longer range then Burnas. Second, in a Mob of 21 they are actually BETTER at CC then those same Burna Boyz.

9 Burna Boyz = 18 Attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds at -2 AP. Against a 3+ Save model thats 4 unsaved wounds.
21 Shoota boyz = 63 Attacks, 42 Hits, 21 wounds. Against a 3+ save model thats 7 Unsaved wounds.

So exactly why are you paying for Burna Boyz at all when you can get more bang for your buck with garbage shoota boyz, mind you I still wouldn't take either one and would rely on Slugga Boyz instead.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






SemperMortis wrote:
 cranect wrote:
I like putting 20 burnas in a wagon. They have done pretty well so far for me. Of course ice only fought against crons with my orks. Both times both burnas and the orkanauts were the big hitters. The boys just tied up units until those two could get to them.


Shoota Boyz are better then Burnas at ranged combat. For the same points cost you can field 9 Burna Boyz OR 21 Shoota Boyz. Even at close range Burnas will get 18 hits and against T4 they will get 9 wounds

Shoota boyz get 42 shots 14 hits and 7 wounds. The difference? Shoota boyz have 10inches longer range then Burnas. Second, in a Mob of 21 they are actually BETTER at CC then those same Burna Boyz.

9 Burna Boyz = 18 Attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds at -2 AP. Against a 3+ Save model thats 4 unsaved wounds.
21 Shoota boyz = 63 Attacks, 42 Hits, 21 wounds. Against a 3+ save model thats 7 Unsaved wounds.

So exactly why are you paying for Burna Boyz at all when you can get more bang for your buck with garbage shoota boyz, mind you I still wouldn't take either one and would rely on Slugga Boyz instead.


Because the Burna Boyz take up less space in a transport, and your 20-man squad of shoota boyz becomes a lot less effective when it takes a single casualty. I'm already learning that mechanized orks are best played in a "clown car" fashion now, with multiple squads equipped with a variety of different tools in each transport. Make use of vehicles' capability to plow into melee combat and soak the overwatch, and reap the benefits of having multiple squads taking lighter morale checks and dealing with a wider variety of threats.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Pittsburgh

It is also easier to get all the burnas into the combat as well. Since you only get two lines of boys into combat you may not get to swing with all 20 other boys. Tables here tend to have a good amount of terrain and between that and other nearby units it can be tough to fit all the boys into combat. Plus I prefer to put the shootas in a 30 man and jump them up to do some damage. Same with sluggas id rather walk them. The transports are for the more elite units.

My Armies:
Orks about 15000-16000 mostly unpainted but slowly being worked on
Militarum Tempestus about 2000 points just built
Inquisition about 2000 points unpainted
Officio Assassinorum 570 unpainted
I dont paint quickly 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 cranect wrote:
It is also easier to get all the burnas into the combat as well. Since you only get two lines of boys into combat you may not get to swing with all 20 other boys. Tables here tend to have a good amount of terrain and between that and other nearby units it can be tough to fit all the boys into combat. Plus I prefer to put the shootas in a 30 man and jump them up to do some damage. Same with sluggas id rather walk them. The transports are for the more elite units.


30 shoota boyz = 60 shots. 20 hits, 10 wounds against T4 unit. After a 3+ save (SM) you have inflicted a grand total of 3 unsaved wounds against a Marine Target, unless he was in cover, in which case its less then 2 (1.66 or thereabouts). Good thing is you get to assault but you might have just killed your charge range unless you shot at a different target (I love this rule). Eitherway, Id rather be doing that with slugga boyz because in 30+ groups they are just so damned scary. Not bad for a 180pt throwaway squad mind you.

I just don't see the Burnas being worth their points, even in CC they aren't great because its still only 2 attacks per guy.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Burnas are better at killing flyers and on overwatch. But their only real advantage is that they're a smaller squad. So, you can concentrate more power in a single spot. Yeah, boyz are better point-for point and they'll live longer, however, 12 boyz don't pack the same punch as 12 burnas in a trukk. Theoretically, they have a place there.
I've only tried a single unit of 5 in a trukk - together with manz - and it wasn't too effective. But it was just a single trukk. Maybe burnas are better en masse when they can concentrate on a flank.
   
Made in dk
Waaagh! Warbiker





Sweden

 koooaei wrote:
 jhnbrg wrote:
I have a 2000pts game tomorrow and i will try a mechanised list, will leave all the fun units at home and just fill up the battle wagons and trukks with boyz.


what fun units are you talking about?


I would like to take a mix of units but there are so many nice models that are still pretty bad (over costed and under powered). Flash gits are top of the list but also lootas and burnas, warbikes, koptas with rokkits, most of the mek guns.

I have had some succes with mobs of shootas lately, thats good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I played a game yesterday against another ork player. we both played foot sloggers so it turned into a bloody mess in the middle (hammer and anvil).¨

Things I learned:
Lootas look more dangerous from the other side.
Painboys are a waste of points mostly.
Waaagh! banner is fantastic
If you get to charge with a nobs mob they will do alot of damage to most things.
Shoota mobs will defeat slugga mobs one on one.
Large mobs of Killa kans can take a beating but damage output is pretty low.
KFF is rather pointless.
Pile in and consolidate with large mobs can be interesting... Positioning is very important.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/29 06:21:18


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 jhnbrg wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
 jhnbrg wrote:
I have a 2000pts game tomorrow and i will try a mechanised list, will leave all the fun units at home and just fill up the battle wagons and trukks with boyz.


what fun units are you talking about?


I would like to take a mix of units but there are so many nice models that are still pretty bad (over costed and under powered). Flash gits are top of the list but also lootas and burnas, warbikes, koptas with rokkits, most of the mek guns.


I'm running 3 koptas this sunday vs necrons. I'll probably take a mix of weapons (modelled as rokkits but the opponent won't mind). Others have had some good results running koptas as cheap as possible.

As for mek gunz, they're still ok for backfield scoring. So far i've tried: kannon, kmk and bauble chukka. None were especially killy but they stayed in the backlines, provided protection for grots and scored points laying some mediocre fire across the field. Bubble chukkas can be surprisingly dangerous but are probably the most random gun in all of 40k. They have their performance range from "absolutely useless" to "woops, i one-shot a predator". KMK are very dependant on negative to-hit modifiers cause they overheat more often shooting flyers at night...but i hope gw will fix this overheat - modifier stupid interaction. Kannons didn't do anything cause we rolled a -1 to-hit outside of 18' mission. And i either missed or didn't wound or the shot got saved with 5+ armor. But overall, min squads of big/mek guns are passable and are probably our best backfield scoring unit. Still.

Burnas seem to be more effective in trukks than regular boys. Their point-per-point damage output is a bit lower than those of shootaboyz with a free nob but as vehicles are pretty expensive, it makes more sense to run something more expensive with a more concentrated punch. They can also burn flyers and other things with negative to-hit modifiers. So, if you're running mech, i'd still probably take a couple squads of burnas in a trukk. They ain't amazing but they're passable.

Warbikes are probably still playable. I haven't had them in 7-th cause they were too easilly countered and didn't punch as hard as bully boyz for my liking. But you can easilly run min squads of bikers in 8-th and expect them to be doing fine. It's just that pure bike armies aren't nearly as effective as they used to be. And they're way more fragile vs stronger multi-damage weapons.

Lootas are too expensive imo but they won't be too bad if you run a couple min squads. In fact, they can be ok for orks - especially in larger games where you can't phisically fit all the boyz that you might want on board. Also, 2 damage is nice vs some things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/29 07:01:21


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




If you are in doubt, take more choppa boyz (on foot) and more weirdboyz. They really are the best units this edition. Painboyz are also great when fielded along with weirdboyz to save them from peril, and with multi-wound models in general. A painboy has a 43% chance of saving a nob biker against a wounding rokkit-shot.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




pismakron wrote:
If you are in doubt, take more choppa boyz (on foot) and more weirdboyz. They really are the best units this edition. Painboyz are also great when fielded along with weirdboyz to save them from peril, and with multi-wound models in general. A painboy has a 43% chance of saving a nob biker against a wounding rokkit-shot.


How do you figure that? Nob biker still only gets a 6+ FNP roll. After he gets slapped in the face with the Rokkit

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
pismakron wrote:
If you are in doubt, take more choppa boyz (on foot) and more weirdboyz. They really are the best units this edition. Painboyz are also great when fielded along with weirdboyz to save them from peril, and with multi-wound models in general. A painboy has a 43% chance of saving a nob biker against a wounding rokkit-shot.


How do you figure that? Nob biker still only gets a 6+ FNP roll. After he gets slapped in the face with the Rokkit


The nob biker will lose three wounds from a wounding rokkit hit. That will kill him, unless the painboy saves one or more of the three wounds lost. (1-(5/6)^3 = 0.43 ish.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




You are forgetting a valuable point. The klaws don't strike last if you charge, or if your opponent has bigger fish to fry in the order of swirling combats.

Breng77 wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Hordes have definitely gone up in killiness and utility cause you can bunch up and pile in to other targets.
But some stuff has lost the punch - like meganobz that have become almost twice less damaging than before and can't really deal with vehicles effectively - like they could.


Are you looking at point for point in this case?

Old Meganobs were about

14 points cheaper than they are now.

On the charge against marines

7th meganobs (assuming no losses) got 4 attacks each at S9, so 2 hits, and likely 2 wounds (1.67 to be exact)
8th meganobs get 3 attacks each at S10, so 1.5 hits and 1.04 wounds. So they are 0.63 wounds less per nob at a price increase. If you pay extra for the killsaws they do the same damage but are 23 points more each.

Anything with a power klaw took a hit when compared to 7th because they give up the charge attack, and the change to a 3+ to hit. Especially in the case of something like meganobs that reliably could expect to live to I1, this hurts as the -1 to hit is a bigger downside than I1 attacks were.

This is a little less true against things that would have struck them first in combat and ignored their armor.

But most units can reliably expect more melee damage than they previously would or at least the same.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
My first impression of the book is that burnas got a big boost with the meta, but everyone seems so sour on them. I will field some and see for myself.

I was very skeptical about the weirdboy but once again, everyone raves about him. I am trying him out in a game today. I'm impressed with his weirdboy staff. Free and a potent weapon.

Lootas...I wonder if 12 of them in the back of a trukk wouldn't be a decent move. The trukk would give them protection against small arms fire. Unless your opponent is willing to commit something big to shoot and blow up your trukk, they might live a while. If you position them well, if the trukk can see, they can all shoot. If you are forced to move, you can still hit on a 6.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/29 15:34:19


Record:

8th edition:
Tyranids: 5-4-3
Orks: 4-2-1

5th edition

Orks:18-5-1
Tyranids: 17-10-4

6th edition

Tyranids: 6-4-1
Orks: 3-1-0 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




pismakron wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
pismakron wrote:
If you are in doubt, take more choppa boyz (on foot) and more weirdboyz. They really are the best units this edition. Painboyz are also great when fielded along with weirdboyz to save them from peril, and with multi-wound models in general. A painboy has a 43% chance of saving a nob biker against a wounding rokkit-shot.


How do you figure that? Nob biker still only gets a 6+ FNP roll. After he gets slapped in the face with the Rokkit


The nob biker will lose three wounds from a wounding rokkit hit. That will kill him, unless the painboy saves one or more of the three wounds lost. (1-(5/6)^3 = 0.43 ish.


Do you get a 6+ FNP Versus the 1 shot or against the 3 Damage it does?

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Colorado Springs

It's for each wound lost so you would make three rolls.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





bucheonman wrote:
You are forgetting a valuable point. The klaws don't strike last if you charge, or if your opponent has bigger fish to fry in the order of swirling combats.

Breng77 wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Hordes have definitely gone up in killiness and utility cause you can bunch up and pile in to other targets.
But some stuff has lost the punch - like meganobz that have become almost twice less damaging than before and can't really deal with vehicles effectively - like they could.


Are you looking at point for point in this case?

Old Meganobs were about

14 points cheaper than they are now.

On the charge against marines

7th meganobs (assuming no losses) got 4 attacks each at S9, so 2 hits, and likely 2 wounds (1.67 to be exact)
8th meganobs get 3 attacks each at S10, so 1.5 hits and 1.04 wounds. So they are 0.63 wounds less per nob at a price increase. If you pay extra for the killsaws they do the same damage but are 23 points more each.

Anything with a power klaw took a hit when compared to 7th because they give up the charge attack, and the change to a 3+ to hit. Especially in the case of something like meganobs that reliably could expect to live to I1, this hurts as the -1 to hit is a bigger downside than I1 attacks were.

This is a little less true against things that would have struck them first in combat and ignored their armor.

But most units can reliably expect more melee damage than they previously would or at least the same.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
My first impression of the book is that burnas got a big boost with the meta, but everyone seems so sour on them. I will field some and see for myself.

I was very skeptical about the weirdboy but once again, everyone raves about him. I am trying him out in a game today. I'm impressed with his weirdboy staff. Free and a potent weapon.

Lootas...I wonder if 12 of them in the back of a trukk wouldn't be a decent move. The trukk would give them protection against small arms fire. Unless your opponent is willing to commit something big to shoot and blow up your trukk, they might live a while. If you position them well, if the trukk can see, they can all shoot. If you are forced to move, you can still hit on a 6.


The weirdboy just adds psychic defense and either an offensive buff, or extra mobility to your units. I look at a da jump Weirdboy as a 62 point unlimited capacity drop pod.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
pismakron wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
pismakron wrote:
If you are in doubt, take more choppa boyz (on foot) and more weirdboyz. They really are the best units this edition. Painboyz are also great when fielded along with weirdboyz to save them from peril, and with multi-wound models in general. A painboy has a 43% chance of saving a nob biker against a wounding rokkit-shot.


How do you figure that? Nob biker still only gets a 6+ FNP roll. After he gets slapped in the face with the Rokkit


The nob biker will lose three wounds from a wounding rokkit hit. That will kill him, unless the painboy saves one or more of the three wounds lost. (1-(5/6)^3 = 0.43 ish.


Do you get a 6+ FNP Versus the 1 shot or against the 3 Damage it does?


Neither. You get it versus wounds lost. For example: A lascannon hits a nob with two wounds. The attacking players rolls to wound and is succesful, the armoursave fails, and lastly a D6 is rolled for damage. It is a 6 and as such the Nob is reduced to zero wounds, the remaining four points of damage being wasted. Now the defending player rolls two dice beause a painboy is nearby, a 6 and a 4 is rolled and the Nob survives with one remaining wound. So the six damage from the lascannon fails to kill the Nob, praise Gork and Mork.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng77 wrote:

The weirdboy just adds psychic defense and either an offensive buff, or extra mobility to your units. I look at a da jump Weirdboy as a 62 point unlimited capacity drop pod.


Da Jump and Warpath are both excellent spells, but smite is weirdboys real strength. D3 or D6 mortal wounds that pretty much auto-hits.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/29 20:07:45


 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






pismakron wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
pismakron wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
pismakron wrote:
If you are in doubt, take more choppa boyz (on foot) and more weirdboyz. They really are the best units this edition. Painboyz are also great when fielded along with weirdboyz to save them from peril, and with multi-wound models in general. A painboy has a 43% chance of saving a nob biker against a wounding rokkit-shot.


How do you figure that? Nob biker still only gets a 6+ FNP roll. After he gets slapped in the face with the Rokkit


The nob biker will lose three wounds from a wounding rokkit hit. That will kill him, unless the painboy saves one or more of the three wounds lost. (1-(5/6)^3 = 0.43 ish.


Do you get a 6+ FNP Versus the 1 shot or against the 3 Damage it does?


Neither. You get it versus wounds lost. For example: A lascannon hits a nob with two wounds. The attacking players rolls to wound and is succesful, the armoursave fails, and lastly a D6 is rolled for damage. It is a 6 and as such the Nob is reduced to zero wounds, the remaining four points of damage being wasted. Now the defending player rolls two dice beause a painboy is nearby, a 6 and a 4 is rolled and the Nob survives with one remaining wound. So the six damage from the lascannon fails to kill the Nob, praise Gork and Mork.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng77 wrote:

The weirdboy just adds psychic defense and either an offensive buff, or extra mobility to your units. I look at a da jump Weirdboy as a 62 point unlimited capacity drop pod.


Da Jump and Warpath are both excellent spells, but smite is weirdboys real strength. D3 or D6 mortal wounds that pretty much auto-hits.


if a lascannon hits a nob and a 6 is rolled they would need to pass 5 6+ fnp to stay alive all of the wounds are applied to the same model they do not just disappear the nob was just overkilled 2x over. The rules are pretty clear.

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Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 G00fySmiley wrote:


if a lascannon hits a nob and a 6 is rolled they would need to pass 5 6+ fnp to stay alive all of the wounds are applied to the same model they do not just disappear the nob was just overkilled 2x over. The rules are pretty clear.


Okay, thx. I'll look it up.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





pismakron wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
pismakron wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
pismakron wrote:
If you are in doubt, take more choppa boyz (on foot) and more weirdboyz. They really are the best units this edition. Painboyz are also great when fielded along with weirdboyz to save them from peril, and with multi-wound models in general. A painboy has a 43% chance of saving a nob biker against a wounding rokkit-shot.


How do you figure that? Nob biker still only gets a 6+ FNP roll. After he gets slapped in the face with the Rokkit


The nob biker will lose three wounds from a wounding rokkit hit. That will kill him, unless the painboy saves one or more of the three wounds lost. (1-(5/6)^3 = 0.43 ish.


Do you get a 6+ FNP Versus the 1 shot or against the 3 Damage it does?


Neither. You get it versus wounds lost. For example: A lascannon hits a nob with two wounds. The attacking players rolls to wound and is succesful, the armoursave fails, and lastly a D6 is rolled for damage. It is a 6 and as such the Nob is reduced to zero wounds, the remaining four points of damage being wasted. Now the defending player rolls two dice beause a painboy is nearby, a 6 and a 4 is rolled and the Nob survives with one remaining wound. So the six damage from the lascannon fails to kill the Nob, praise Gork and Mork.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breng77 wrote:

The weirdboy just adds psychic defense and either an offensive buff, or extra mobility to your units. I look at a da jump Weirdboy as a 62 point unlimited capacity drop pod.


Da Jump and Warpath are both excellent spells, but smite is weirdboys real strength. D3 or D6 mortal wounds that pretty much auto-hits.


I disagree with smite being the real strength of the weird boy. If all they had was smite I would never bother with them, as yes it auto hits, but due to weirdboyz being slow it often auto hits a target that is not its best use.
   
 
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