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 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Melee is far worse.
Anyone can now just fall back from melee and then the rest of the army shoots you.
When before it was very strong, protective and decisive.
You will need several units or several assaults to kill just one ennemy unit.

Yet assault armies are doing better. HMMMMMMM.

Because they've reduced the number of turns melee armies have to weather enemy firepower before reaching combat from 3 to 0.

Honestly this should tell you everything about the discrepancy between shooting lethality and melee lethality, if falling back and using other units to shoot up the attacker is enough to answer 1st turn charges.

Exactly.
Melee is far easier to get, but I still say it is worst. When I need 3 assaults to kill just one death guard squad with my terminator squad, how has assault been made better ?
Movement has been made easier, assault has not been improved.
However, it is indeed more interactive for the players, which is a good thing.

 godardc wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Melee is far worse.
Anyone can now just fall back from melee and then the rest of the army shoots you.
When before it was very strong, protective and decisive.
You will need several units or several assaults to kill just one ennemy unit.

Yet assault armies are doing better. HMMMMMMM.

Because they've reduced the number of turns melee armies have to weather enemy firepower before reaching combat from 3 to 0.

Honestly this should tell you everything about the discrepancy between shooting lethality and melee lethality, if falling back and using other units to shoot up the attacker is enough to answer 1st turn charges.

Exactly.
Melee is far easier to get, but I still say it is worst. When I need 3 assaults to kill just one death guard squad with my terminator squad, how has assault been made better ?
Movement has been made easier, assault has not been improved.
However, it is indeed more interactive for the players, which is a good thing.

That.. sounds like some bad rolling, how did it take three assaults to kill one death guard squad?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


That.. sounds like some bad rolling, how did it take three assaults to kill one death guard squad?

Never underestimate a DG player's ability to roll 5+'s.

Three hammernators assaulting have only 6 attacks now, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+.
That's 1 DG killed, instead of 2 or 3 even sometimes.
So now I kill about 50% less models (hammer are especially impacted by the new to wound chart).
But yeah, I must admit DG are really resilient !
And every time he falls back, my poor veterans get shot :(

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
Dreadnoughts gained two inches in mobility but lost access to Drop Pods, Murderfang also lost four attacks.

Is this how we do comparisons now? I can just leave off one of the stat values and make things better or worse? That's nifty, let me try.

Wtf storm bolters are identical to regular bolters but they cost more! Regular bolter FREE (WTF GW) S4 Ap- D1, Storm Bolter 2 points S4 AP- D1 how is that fair?

The HTH costs more because it does D6 damage with an extra chance of causing 6 damage outright. It costs 1/3 more, and does 1/3 more damage on average per wound.

Short version, from what I've seen so far - melee is much easier to get into, but is less deadly per turn. It has to be, though: if you could get into melee as easily as in 8e, but with 7e-style Locked In Combat and Sweeping Advance, assault armies would be absolutely dominant.

Disengaging isn't always brutal - non-FLY units that disengage generally can't shoot or charge, so you can charge multiple units (or pile into/consolidate into them) so that an entire flank of a shooting army can't shoot. Even an MSU-spam shooting list has only just so many units, after all. The things to watch out for are units with the FLY keyword. (Tau suits come to mind, but so do things that want to be in assault like Vanguard Veterans or Tyranid Shrikes.)

Folks still cry about Tau overwatch, but unlike in 6/7e, markerlights are rather less helpful. In 7e, I've actually had Overwatch shots hitting at BS5 or better. In 8e, the best you can possibly get is hitting on 5+, rerollable, and that requires both the Counterfire Defense System and an improbable (but not impossible) 5 marker hits.

Flamer overwatch, however, is scary. Think twice before charging lightly-armored assault units into flamer-bearers. I was playing a game against Harlequins with my Sisters, and a Troupe of six Harlequins charged my Seraphim - their four hand flamers evaporated the whole unit.

jade_angel wrote:


Folks still cry about Tau overwatch, but unlike in 6/7e, markerlights are rather less helpful. In 7e, I've actually had Overwatch shots hitting at BS5 or better. In 8e, the best you can possibly get is hitting on 5+, rerollable, and that requires both the Counterfire Defense System and an improbable (but not impossible) 5 marker hits.

I think the problem with Tau overwatch is people are doing more of it than they are allowed.

GodDamUser wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.

Sounds like you just played badly

I wasn't the one playing sport.




Shooting>Combat


And often they're not mutually exclusive, many things are shooting and charging and leaving and shooting and charging now. Either way, even with deepstrike turn one charging, random charge is still a thing and unless you're using a beacon trick to get closer, better be an entire list built to alpha strike. The sheer amount of fire some units can put out combined with overwatch and support fire has risen. Even with warp speed and the ability to stay out of los to a lot of units that could potentially add to suport fire, this thing didn't have a chance and it was facing maybe 200pts worth of fire warriors and missile turrets. Shooting>combat.

 Crablezworth wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.

Sounds like you just played badly

I wasn't the one playing sport.

Sounds like the player was playing badly or it was a suicide attack. New players charging all their models to the middle of the board or into the enemy lines brainlessly is coloring a lot of player's opinions on the game. When people in general start to realize you can play a lot slower and more tactically now you'll see a lot more melee armies doing well.

the_scotsman wrote:


Wtf storm bolters are identical to regular bolters but they cost more! Regular bolter FREE (WTF GW) S4 Ap- D1, Storm Bolter 2 points S4 AP- D1 how is that fair?

Stormbolters fire double the regular bolter shots, they're rapid fire 2 instead of rapid fire. 4 S4 shots for only 2 points are really nice.

 Blackie wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Wtf storm bolters are identical to regular bolters but they cost more! Regular bolter FREE (WTF GW) S4 Ap- D1, Storm Bolter 2 points S4 AP- D1 how is that fair?

Stormbolters fire double the regular bolter shots, they're rapid fire 2 instead of rapid fire. 4 S4 shots for only 2 points are really nice.

I'm not sure if you noticed the context, but that was his point.
The previous poster had claimed that Heavy Thunder Hammers are just more expensive Thunder Hammers while leaving relevant information out the same way the_scotsman did.

Welp, just so that my only contribution isn't being a smartass, here are my experiences as a BA player:

I have found assaulting from reserves effective, but difficult to pull off.
My friend play Skitarii and he fields MSU Vanguards as a bubblewrap. I can of course shoot them, but that means that I must either DS way too far from my intended target or wait for turn 2-3 to attack.

I have also found that smaller number of attacks in general has made assaults less impressive. And the problem isn't even Falling back in itself, it's more about the fact that less killing power and no sweeping advanced means that wiping the enemy isn't as easy as it has been.

So I cannot kill or tie down my opponent's gunline effectively. Sigh.

MSU might be the way to go.

 godardc wrote:
Melee is far worse.
Anyone can now just fall back from melee and then the rest of the army shoots you.
When before it was very strong, protective and decisive.
You will need several units or several assaults to kill just one ennemy unit.

Spoken like someone who doesn't play 8th.

For some who hasn't played 8th explain why it's better for me then.

I get hit harder and I can't sweep anymore and I have a load of dumb hit penalties. What's better?

Your attacks are happening first, for starters. Meaning that while your hammer's are at a slight penalty to hit they are killing before being struck down.

Also, to the player above who had a bad go against plague marines, remember they need to make a disgustingly resilient roll against every wound lost. So against thunder hammers they would need to roll three dice per unsaved wound. It should definitely kill the model.

S to the topic at hand, melee is alive and well. You just have to realise that your melee weapons will have preferred targets just like ranged weapons do.

I play harlequins, in my games so far I've noticed that the caress does well against marine equivalent units, the embrace does better anti horde, and the kiss is better against monsters/characters because of the extra damage per unsaved wound. Throwing big heavy weapons at massed infantry or even just one wound models is a waste, throwing things like chainswords at monsters hoping to drown them in wounds is also going to be ineffective.

Right tool for the job, and tactical variety are the key with every weapon now. Good luck!

Hitting first because you charge is a massive bonus now, I crippled a dreadnought by charging it with TH/SS wolfguard and taking of 2/3 of it's wounds before it could strike.

As an owner of a melee army i'm more than happy with 8th combat.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Your attacks are happening first, for starters. Meaning that while your hammer's are at a slight penalty to hit they are killing before being struck down.

Also, to the player above who had a bad go against plague marines, remember they need to make a disgustingly resilient roll against every wound lost. So against thunder hammers they would need to roll three dice per unsaved wound. It should definitely kill the model.

S to the topic at hand, melee is alive and well. You just have to realise that your melee weapons will have preferred targets just like ranged weapons do.

I play harlequins, in my games so far I've noticed that the caress does well against marine equivalent units, the embrace does better anti horde, and the kiss is better against monsters/characters because of the extra damage per unsaved wound. Throwing big heavy weapons at massed infantry or even just one wound models is a waste, throwing things like chainswords at monsters hoping to drown them in wounds is also going to be ineffective.

Right tool for the job, and tactical variety are the key with every weapon now. Good luck!

For a turn. If I charge. Whereas before I'd hit first all the time. That's something worse not better.

 Crablezworth wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.

Sounds like you just played badly

I wasn't the one playing sport.

Shooting>Combat

And often they're not mutually exclusive, many things are shooting and charging and leaving and shooting and charging now. Either way, even with deepstrike turn one charging, random charge is still a thing and unless you're using a beacon trick to get closer, better be an entire list built to alpha strike. The sheer amount of fire some units can put out combined with overwatch and support fire has risen. Even with warp speed and the ability to stay out of los to a lot of units that could potentially add to suport fire, this thing didn't have a chance and it was facing maybe 200pts worth of fire warriors and missile turrets. Shooting>combat.

Don't call people "sport", it's incredibly condescending. In your original comment it wasn't clear if it was you playing or not, so don't go there.

Either case, I do agree with you. For all the years I have been playing 40k (since 5th edition, not that many compared to others, I know) shooting has always been the dominant phase. I am glad that melee is easier to get into now, but the game is still much more in favour of shooting. Even deep striking is better for shooting armies now I feel, since many can get into rapid fire range by plopping down right behind the enemy. This also makes the enemy split their fire, so shooting them from the front with the rest of your army gets even more effective.

I don't really mind since I prefer shooting over melee, but a good mix of both is certainly more effective now than in 7th edition. But I do agree, shooting>combat.

I've won far too many of what would be utterly impossible matchups in 7th with my Wyches in 8th to believe melee is bad.

1) My transports got way more durable. Before, an opponent with decent anti tank in a 2k game could easily kill 2-3 transports, which would then blow up and kill 50% of the occupants (and often just have the remainder run away). Now, generally one or none die, and then the occupants require additional firepower to take out because only 1-2 dies when the transport goes. If you play imperium, try Rhino Rushing someone instead of just sprinting at them.

2) my basic dudes are actually capable of getting where they're going and continuing the fight. 8" move on everyone is HUGE.

3) I have actual control over how much overwatch I take. I can send in a transport first to soak all of it, or I can opt for an 8" charge to avoid all flamer overwatch (8" range baby)

yes, I have played against flamers that can get D6 autohits. Yes, I have played against Tau. Yes, I have played against armored lists that all have Fly. I've only lost once with them so far, and it was against orks, who had the combination of dakka and melee to plow through my wyches.

I've found melee to be very effective as part of a combined arms approach, but I play Dark Eldar. Grotesques, for example, are utterly brutal now and a charge from them will reliably end a lot of otherwise strong units. Other units also seem about the right level of competency in assault. I even assault with my vehicles fairly often to good effect. Sure the enemy can sometimes fall back, but when I have assaulted a large number of their units that neuters their firepower for the most part.

Also with regards to overwatch why not just charge with a character first, if they are even 0.1" further away than the squad they can't be overwatched, then when they are in combat the squad charges in freely. Now I may be seeing charges as more reliable because of my rerolls, but other armies can charge from close range or use command points.

I played Tyranids against Adeptus Mechanicus. I went first. He basically got to shoot some overwatch, and maybe two thirds of his army on his first turn. By the second turn I had managed to engage all units but 2 in close combat. My opponent barely even had a chance to play a game. A lot of his stuff was still alive, but it was never going to get to shoot. Honestly, it left a bad taste in my mouth. There are absolutely counters, bubble wrap being the obvious, but geez is everyone going to have to play with 50 bubble wrap chumps? Not everyone wants to deal with a horde.

Drager wrote:
Also with regards to overwatch why not just charge with a character first, if they are even 0.1" further away than the squad they can't be overwatched, then when they are in combat the squad charges in freely.

Not correct. In the overwatch rule section it specifically says that they shoot at the charging unit. They are not "targeted", they are just shot at.

Word for word: "Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker".
I would 100% say that this overrides the character shooting restrictions.

 alleus wrote:

Drager wrote:
Also with regards to overwatch why not just charge with a character first, if they are even 0.1" further away than the squad they can't be overwatched, then when they are in combat the squad charges in freely.

Not correct. In the overwatch rule section it specifically says that they shoot at the charging unit. They are not "targeted", they are just shot at.

Word for word: "Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker".
I would 100% say that this overrides the character shooting restrictions.

Yep. And the restriction on characters is for choosing them as targets during the shooting phase.
Overwatch isn't in the shooting phase, and you don't get to choose your target.

Cool. Missed that, that makes some of my stuff more effective. So don't charge with a character further away than a squad (cause it won't work), charge with one hiding behind a transport. Or charge with the transport.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
Dreadnoughts gained two inches in mobility but lost access to Drop Pods, Murderfang also lost four attacks.

Is this how we do comparisons now? I can just leave off one of the stat values and make things better or worse? That's nifty, let me try.

Wtf storm bolters are identical to regular bolters but they cost more! Regular bolter FREE (WTF GW) S4 Ap- D1, Storm Bolter 2 points S4 AP- D1 how is that fair?

The HTH costs more because it does D6 damage with an extra chance of causing 6 damage outright. It costs 1/3 more, and does 1/3 more damage on average per wound.

Vanguard Vets have a grand total of one wound and two attacks, they're rarely going to get to attack a multi-wound model and when they do they'll roll a one just for gaks and giggles.
Don't kid yourself, they'll mostly be facing one wound enemies and they're more likely to die to overwatch than get the big six.
Waste of points.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Vanguard Vets have a grand total of one wound and two attacks, they're rarely going to get to attack a multi-wound model and when they do they'll roll a one just for gaks and giggles.
Don't kid yourself, they'll mostly be facing one wound enemies and they're more likely to die to overwatch than get the big six.
Waste of points.

If you aren't getting to attack multi-wound models that is really on you. Vehicles, Monstrous creatures and multi-wound infantry are all very very common. If you play in a meta where that isn't true don't take Vanguard Vets, but also understand that your meta is not normal.

I play just the starter box of Death Guard and have pretty much won every game so far in 8th by tarpitting my opponent in melee. The Lord of Contagion just murders his way through their army while the pox walkers draw a heap of fire and generally tie up a unit in melee. Even the Plague Marines can survive in melee for a while. I've managed to get Necrons, Marines and Primaris stuck in a melee grind where I've managed to come out on top every time. Generally my Plaguecaster just strolls along the melee, dishing out mortal wounds to finish off strong units while the rest tie everything up and the Lord chews through the army from a flank. For the record, the starter set is only about 800-ish points, while my opponents are on 1000

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
All melee got a buff, really. But IMO the biggest thing I've noticed is that khornate... ANYTHING is now frighteningly effective.

I can attest to this as well.

I played a game with a daemons player, and his Khorne Daemon Prince was an absolute juggernaut. It was hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, with 9 attacks, doing 2 damage each, at AP-3. Yikes. It will smash what it gets into CC with.

Not everything in melee got a buff.
Some things got de-buffed, some needed it, some really didn't.

Monstrous Creatures no longer automatically have the ability to ignore all armour, some have no rending value in melee at all.
That's actually good, most of the ones that lost out were long range units anyway.
Tyrannids Monstrous Creatures are actually seeing melee now so it wasn't a relevant loss to them.
Thunderwolf Cavalry lost access to Strength ten attacks, they also lost two inches of mobility.
Wulfen Frost Claws copped a price hike and got debuffed from ap2 to ap-2.
Curse of the Wulfen lost its mobility bonus and only affects a unit once per turn.
Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
Dreadnoughts gained two inches in mobility but lost access to Drop Pods, Murderfang also lost four attacks.

So, Spacewolves lost God mode and cheese ball wolfen cavalry and wolfen are no longer autotake then? Good. Sounds like they got knowcked down a peg to be below tyranids, the original melee army. Sounds about right to me.

To the O.P., melee is really fun now. Forget the hand wringing. Overwatch isn't nearly as bad as it sounds, falling back units are not that big of a deal (they can't shoot, but their friends can), and is only bad if you charge a single small unit into combat with no support. If you do a proper charge, contact a few units, it will not effect you one bit.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
Dreadnoughts gained two inches in mobility but lost access to Drop Pods, Murderfang also lost four attacks.

Is this how we do comparisons now? I can just leave off one of the stat values and make things better or worse? That's nifty, let me try.

Wtf storm bolters are identical to regular bolters but they cost more! Regular bolter FREE (WTF GW) S4 Ap- D1, Storm Bolter 2 points S4 AP- D1 how is that fair?

The HTH costs more because it does D6 damage with an extra chance of causing 6 damage outright. It costs 1/3 more, and does 1/3 more damage on average per wound.

Vanguard Vets have a grand total of one wound and two attacks, they're rarely going to get to attack a multi-wound model and when they do they'll roll a one just for gaks and giggles.
Don't kid yourself, they'll mostly be facing one wound enemies and they're more likely to die to overwatch than get the big six.
Waste of points.

Well, with weaponry like that why wouldn’t they? Or more importantly, why would you even kit them with Thunder Hammers if they (as you said) aren't going after multi-wound models? Your comparison is similar to putting Meltaguns on a Sternguard Veterans and complaining how they are not nearly as effective as flamers against Guardsmen, and then claim that this means flamers are superior to Meltas. Insane.

HTHs on Vanguard unit might really make the opponents backfield artillery scared. The fact that this might change his deployment and tie down Infantry is worth 10-15 points alone.

Slave wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
All melee got a buff, really. But IMO the biggest thing I've noticed is that khornate... ANYTHING is now frighteningly effective.

I can attest to this as well.

I played a game with a daemons player, and his Khorne Daemon Prince was an absolute juggernaut. It was hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, with 9 attacks, doing 2 damage each, at AP-3. Yikes. It will smash what it gets into CC with.

Not everything in melee got a buff.
Some things got de-buffed, some needed it, some really didn't.

Monstrous Creatures no longer automatically have the ability to ignore all armour, some have no rending value in melee at all.
That's actually good, most of the ones that lost out were long range units anyway.
Tyrannids Monstrous Creatures are actually seeing melee now so it wasn't a relevant loss to them.
Thunderwolf Cavalry lost access to Strength ten attacks, they also lost two inches of mobility.
Wulfen Frost Claws copped a price hike and got debuffed from ap2 to ap-2.
Curse of the Wulfen lost its mobility bonus and only affects a unit once per turn.
Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
Dreadnoughts gained two inches in mobility but lost access to Drop Pods, Murderfang also lost four attacks.

So, Spacewolves lost God mode and cheese ball wolfen cavalry and wolfen are no longer autotake then? Good. Sounds like they got knowcked down a peg to be below tyranids, the original melee army. Sounds about right to me.

To the O.P., melee is really fun now. Forget the hand wringing. Overwatch isn't nearly as bad as it sounds, falling back units are not that big of a deal (they can't shoot, but their friends can), and is only bad if you charge a single small unit into combat with no support. If you do a proper charge, contact a few units, it will not effect you one bit.

Nah sorry to break it to you we still mince nids.

How are berzerkers and other khorne units? Ive seen some talk about them and they seem awesome