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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dast wrote:
I don't think the difference in points cost for the Battle cannon vs. KillKannon can really be read into. You attach them to different units that have different built in points costs. What is too say that some of the costing hasn't been built in on that side?


Well the only unit in the Ork Codex that can take the Kill Kannon is the Battlewagon which is a glorified armored transport that is heavily over priced and cant take any effective weapons beyond a CC weapon. Most of the game it will be advancing to get its payload into CC as quickly as possible, and if you take the KillKannon you reduce the transport capacity in half. Conversely people use battlewagons as mobile bunkers to shoot lootas out of, but a loota has twice the range of the kill Kannon so its effectively wasted.

So if you are saying that the cost of the weapon is because the platform is also a transport I would immediately point you to the Land Raider which can take 4 Lascannons for the same price that a devastator squad can. Or pretty much every other transport in the game.

the cost for the KillKannon is a direct reflection of GW being stupid.


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I suspect the ballistic skill of the platform is not incorporated into the weapon's cost in the slightest.

I imagine that should be factored into the platform's cost, since it's the platform's rule and affects every gun on it equally.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Dast wrote:
I don't think the difference in points cost for the Battle cannon vs. KillKannon can really be read into. You attach them to different units that have different built in points costs. What is too say that some of the costing hasn't been built in on that side?


The fact that GW is crap at rules?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





I do think some kind of flat value in addition to the random shots would help shore up blast weapons and reduce their randomness. Maybe something like add a flat +2 to d3 blasts and +4 to d6 blasts.

Though I guess if you wanted a weird and wacky way to stack randomness on top of randomness, you could have them roll for number of shots, roll to hit, then have each hit generate a random number of hits which then in turn roll for damage.

One thing that is kind of disappointing is there really isn't a good way to represent a blast's ability to hit more than one unit without templates. I guess a somewhat compromise would be that if there is another unit within, say, 3"-6" of the target unit, a blast weapon may choose to divide its shots between them.
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





Kalamazoo Michigan

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I suspect the ballistic skill of the platform is not incorporated into the weapon's cost in the slightest.


You know what's really strange regarding Imperial Guard? All Special Weapons and Heavy weapons have gotten like 33% cheaper (vs SM cost), which does account for guards bad BS, but now blasts use BS with no accounting for the massive drop in effectiveness. Their "balancing" makes me dizzy...

I also love the fact Valkyries and Vendettas have just about a permanent 5+ to hit now too... play testing huh? Take down a flyer with a flamer anyone?

Life before death, Strength before weakness, Journey before destination. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 easypeasylemonsquezy wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I suspect the ballistic skill of the platform is not incorporated into the weapon's cost in the slightest.


You know what's really strange regarding Imperial Guard? All Special Weapons and Heavy weapons have gotten like 33% cheaper (vs SM cost), which does account for guards bad BS, but now blasts use BS with no accounting for the massive drop in effectiveness. Their "balancing" makes me dizzy...

I also love the fact Valkyries and Vendettas have just about a permanent 5+ to hit now too... play testing huh? Take down a flyer with a flamer anyone?


Ironically the only decent way Orkz have to kill Flyers this edition is with Skorchas and Burnas. Tankbustas do ok against them but that is about it.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





If part of the battle cannon's cost is baked into the LRBT, then GW really screwed up because the LRBT is far from the only unit that can take a battle cannon.

Honestly though 27 points is way too much for a 1d6 S7 AP-2 D2 weapon regardless of what is carrying it. I'd price it 20 points at most, just above an autocannon. And the autocannon itself is arguably overpriced at 15 points, so I could easily see it going lower.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





My proposal is simple but for now does not apply to flamers. It is also a buff. Points will have to be adjusted.

Step 1.
Treat each d3 as 3 and d6 as 6 in blast weapon profiles.
Step 2.
Impose a -1 to hit modifier if the weapon is fired at a unit with less models than the number of shots. And a +1 modifier if the weapon is fired at a unit with more than double the number of models.

The battlecannon example:
For d6 shots with BS4+ you would score on average 7/4 hits atm.

With this change you'd score 2 hits at units with 5 or less models; 3 against 6-12 and 4 against 13+ models.

I am aware that it is a bit weird to have a -1 modifier just because there are only 5 dudes instead of 6 but the 10+ model rule for some weapons is an arbitrary number too. Might as well tie it to the number of shots.

Next step is finding a solution for auto hit weapons.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 combatcotton wrote:
My proposal is simple but for now does not apply to flamers. It is also a buff. Points will have to be adjusted.

Step 1.
Treat each d3 as 3 and d6 as 6 in blast weapon profiles.
Step 2.
Impose a -1 to hit modifier if the weapon is fired at a unit with less models than the number of shots. And a +1 modifier if the weapon is fired at a unit with more than double the number of models.

The battlecannon example:
For d6 shots with BS4+ you would score on average 7/4 hits atm.

With this change you'd score 2 hits at units with 5 or less models; 3 against 6-12 and 4 against 13+ models.

I am aware that it is a bit weird to have a -1 modifier just because there are only 5 dudes instead of 6 but the 10+ model rule for some weapons is an arbitrary number too. Might as well tie it to the number of shots.

Next step is finding a solution for auto hit weapons.


So now my over priced kill Kannon gets 6 shots. Against 5 or less it will hit 1 time, against 6-10 it will hit...2 times, against 10+ it will hit 3 times. Since most of the targets I want to be hitting with a S7 -2 AP weapon are low model count units I can safely assume it will be hitting 1-2 times almost the entire time. Last edition my over priced Kill Kannon which was never taken was a large blast that usually would scatter and still nail 3-5 Space Marines and it still wasn't worth taking.....Let that sink in.

So this fix still sucks. What GW NEEDS to do is go over every codex and reprice everything to make it reasonable. At the moment literally EVERY blast weapon in the ork codex is useless. Our best shooting comes from Big Gunz armed with Kannons which are drastically over priced as well.

I am hoping against hope that GW unfeths itself when it releases our codex otherwise Its time to hang up the orkz, 4 editions of sucking is more then enough for me.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





As far as I remember I said something about points in need of adjustment.
So please look at the suggestions in the light of the gun being as accurately prized as it can be.
Do the game mechanics work? I think they do and I hope you take a breath and redo your opinion.

Sidenote:

This system would also allow for more diverse blast sizes. Your big gun could be a blast 8 or even bigger. As we all know orcs aren't know for restrain.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




What about rolling to hit, on a hit you roll to see how many shots connect, if you miss you get half the shots rolled rounded down.

Orks all the blasts would be equal, and ork ballistic skill won't shut them down so hard.

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
What about rolling to hit, on a hit you roll to see how many shots connect, if you miss you get half the shots rolled rounded down.

Orks all the blasts would be equal, and ork ballistic skill won't shut them down so hard.

I like the idea of halfing the number of hits but I think we should keep the number of hits random so that it's scalable between bigger and smaller weapons and 1 should still be an auto miss, examples:

BS5+ that does d6 shots now has this roll to hit table:
d6
1 - 0 hits
2 - d3 hits
3 - d3 hits
4 - d3 hits
5 - d6 hits
6 - d6 hits

BS4+ that does d3 shots now has this roll to hit table:
d6
1 - 0 hits
2 - 1 hits
3 - 1 hits
4 - d3 hits
5 - d3 hits
6 - d3 hits

BS3+ that does 2d6 shots now has this roll to hit table:
d6
1 - 0 hits
2 - d6 hits
3 - 2d6 hits
4 - 2d6 hits
5 - 2d6 hits
6 - 2d6 hits

BS4+ that does 2d3 shots now has this roll to hit table:
d6
1 - 0 hits
2 - d3 hits
3 - d3 hits
4 - 2d3 hits
5 - 2d3 hits
6 - 2d3 hits

Of course many weapons would need to be repriced due to the new reliability in hitting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 12:31:09


Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




That seems like more work than what would be necessary. My proposal allows Orks and guard to hit more often than they do now, while not allowing them to breach their inbuilt maximum damage threshold.

Space marines will get their d6 more often but the lower ballistic skill armies will hit their average (or best in regards to Orks, compared to current values) and occasionally drop a massive amount of hits they normally wouldn't have the ability to.

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
That seems like more work than what would be necessary. My proposal allows Orks and guard to hit more often than they do now, while not allowing them to breach their inbuilt maximum damage threshold.

Space marines will get their d6 more often but the lower ballistic skill armies will hit their average (or best in regards to Orks, compared to current values) and occasionally drop a massive amount of hits they normally wouldn't have the ability to.

It's not really more work, it is the same number of steps as there is now whilst rolling less dice since the random number of shots happen after the to hot roll. I think we should keep it random number of hits because a straight 6 shots on a High strength, high AP, multiple damage weapon that still hits 3 times when you miss is quite powerful. With your method, number of hits on a d6 weapon with BS5 goes from 1.2 to 4 whilst mine just goes from 1.2 to 2.2. I think a better average of hits and a minor price drop should make blast weapons far better and it would make blast weapons far more valuable on cheap low BS units like they should be.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





Kalamazoo Michigan

Personally I'm not a fan of reducing points cost. Imperial Guard already has to field like 300 models to get 2000 points... so please stop, my poor wallet.

One potential fix in regards to BS would be give a special rule to +1 or +2 to hit with those weapons (up to 3+? and only if you see the target?). You already see rules like that on flyers and other vehicles with heavy weapons to account for moving.

Overall I hate the randomness of the damage and number of hits, in 7th and before the only thing to really have that was like chaos spawns. Its not like you have a choice where you did with blast templates, I loved dropping a special weapon squad with 3 demo charges and just watch them blow up random things and likely blow themselves up too, but now oh wow i rolled dice and got like 7 hits -> 3 wounds... yay nice and boring.

I play a lot of X-wing and the biggest down side to that game is you roll so few dice, one bad dice roll can nearly determine a game. 40k negated this mostly by having so many rolls when it came to attacking but now a single die determines the number of attacks/damage pretty much destroys that, its a big step back in my opinion.

Life before death, Strength before weakness, Journey before destination. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 mrhappyface wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
That seems like more work than what would be necessary. My proposal allows Orks and guard to hit more often than they do now, while not allowing them to breach their inbuilt maximum damage threshold.

Space marines will get their d6 more often but the lower ballistic skill armies will hit their average (or best in regards to Orks, compared to current values) and occasionally drop a massive amount of hits they normally wouldn't have the ability to.

It's not really more work, it is the same number of steps as there is now whilst rolling less dice since the random number of shots happen after the to hot roll. I think we should keep it random number of hits because a straight 6 shots on a High strength, high AP, multiple damage weapon that still hits 3 times when you miss is quite powerful. With your method, number of hits on a d6 weapon with BS5 goes from 1.2 to 4 whilst mine just goes from 1.2 to 2.2. I think a better average of hits and a minor price drop should make blast weapons far better and it would make blast weapons far more valuable on cheap low BS units like they should be.


Um, half of 6 is three. So scoring half the die rolled rounded down gives a number of hits from 0-6 with an average between 2-4.

Make the weapon worth the points, then there is no reason to adjust point values. (Other than equalizing things like the battle cannon and killkannon. Annoying they still make Orks pay out the rear for lesser firepower because they're an assault based army)

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Um, half of 6 is three. So scoring half the die rolled rounded down gives a number of hits from 0-6 with an average between 2-4.

Make the weapon worth the points, then there is no reason to adjust point values. (Other than equalizing things like the battle cannon and killkannon. Annoying they still make Orks pay out the rear for lesser firepower because they're an assault based army)

Oh, I have misunderstood your original premise, so you say someone with BS5+ would have this table:

d6
1 - 0
2 - 1
3 - 1
4 - 2
5 - 5
6 - 6

That could be all right.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in fi
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Finland

Well the problem is that you need to first roll well on the number of attacks and still make those BS rolls for all of them. This hurts low BS armies (read: Orks) unreasonably. Sure low BS meant you scattered more in the past, but there was a 1/3 chance of a direct hit.

Anecdotally my friend ran two Nightspinners the other day (2D6 shots) and I believe he never rolled more than 5 shots, averaging about 3-4 shots (yeah he rolled miserably the whole game).

But yeah, there should be some mechanic to better your odds of getting reasonable number of shots against bigger units up to a certain limit obviously. You could ever only fit so many models under the blast template.

Like 1D3 hits if less than 5 models, 1D6 if 5 or more, like it is with some weapons already.

7000+
3500
2000 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 mrhappyface wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Um, half of 6 is three. So scoring half the die rolled rounded down gives a number of hits from 0-6 with an average between 2-4.

Make the weapon worth the points, then there is no reason to adjust point values. (Other than equalizing things like the battle cannon and killkannon. Annoying they still make Orks pay out the rear for lesser firepower because they're an assault based army)

Oh, I have misunderstood your original premise, so you say someone with BS5+ would have this table:

d6
1 - 0
2 - 1
3 - 1
4 - 2
5 - 5
6 - 6

That could be all right.


The premise was, roll one shot to hit, then roll the dice you normally would to determine the number of shots.
If you had hit, this is the number of hits.
If you miss, you halve the number of hits (rounded down)

So, for an ork killkannon, you roll a miss, you then roll the d6 and get a "4". This will net you 2 hits.

Imagine you had placed a template last edition and it covered 4 models. It then scattered to only cover two.

My option let's you hit more often than not, but you won't hit more than what is possible with the current system.

No extra charts, no point overhauls, just a slight change in mechanics to allow the former template weapons to not be overshadowed by weapons that traditionally fired multiple shots.

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The premise was, roll one shot to hit, then roll the dice you normally would to determine the number of shots.
If you had hit, this is the number of hits.
If you miss, you halve the number of hits (rounded down)

So, for an ork killkannon, you roll a miss, you then roll the d6 and get a "4". This will net you 2 hits.

Imagine you had placed a template last edition and it covered 4 models. It then scattered to only cover two.

My option let's you hit more often than not, but you won't hit more than what is possible with the current system.

No extra charts, no point overhauls, just a slight change in mechanics to allow the former template weapons to not be overshadowed by weapons that traditionally fired multiple shots.

Right, so you are saying what I originally thought you were saying. So what exactly was wrong with my method since it is exactly as you propose but a roll of a 1 is always an auto miss?

To be clear, I mean this method:
BS5+ that does d6 shots now has this roll to hit table:
d6
1 - 0 hits
2 - d3 hits
3 - d3 hits
4 - d3 hits
5 - d6 hits
6 - d6 hits

BS4+ that does d3 shots now has this roll to hit table:
d6
1 - 0 hits
2 - 1 hits
3 - 1 hits
4 - d3 hits
5 - d3 hits
6 - d3 hits

BS3+ that does 2d6 shots now has this roll to hit table:
d6
1 - 0 hits
2 - d6 hits
3 - 2d6 hits
4 - 2d6 hits
5 - 2d6 hits
6 - 2d6 hits

BS4+ that does 2d3 shots now has this roll to hit table:
d6
1 - 0 hits
2 - d3 hits
3 - d3 hits
4 - 2d3 hits
5 - 2d3 hits
6 - 2d3 hits

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/22 14:49:33


Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The additional tables are unnecessary honestly. They also skew when the unit moved because a static chart would necessitate another line for taking negatives for movement and penalties caused by the target (such as eldar rangers or the Tau ghostkeel)

I'm trying to add maybe one sentence to the ruleset while maintaining the format. Adding a bunch of charts to reference is honestly out of place in the system at hand.

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The additional tables are unnecessary honestly. They also skew when the unit moved because a static chart would necessitate another line for taking negatives for movement and penalties caused by the target (such as eldar rangers or the Tau ghostkeel)

I'm trying to add maybe one sentence to the ruleset while maintaining the format. Adding a bunch of charts to reference is honestly out of place in the system at hand.

The tables are just visuals to show what would happen when you rolled a d6 in the new system, they are not a necessary addition.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ah, I gotcha. For some reason the switch from d3 to d6 didn't compute as simply being half of d6. Crazy weekend ruining my cognitive abilities...

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Ah, I gotcha. For some reason the switch from d3 to d6 didn't compute as simply being half of d6. Crazy weekend ruining my cognitive abilities...

Doesn't matter, we agreed in the end! (Even if we were agreeing to start off with )

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Now all we have to do is get games workshop to sign off on it

   
 
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