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I agree with one squad of conscripts for every two squads of guardsmen. Might help mitigate some of the scion spam as well.

If you throw 80 Bolter dice at conscripts, that's only 30 dead. That takes more than double the cost of the squad, counting the commissar, to deal 60% damage. It's hard to think of a unit that isn't blatantly undercosted, where you could invest more than double its cost in the *most optimal* method of removal, and deal only 60% damage.

Imagine throwing 1,000 points worth of melta, in melta range, into an imperial knight, and seeing it still running around with 8 wounds remaining. That's the level of defensive efficiency the conscripts enjoy.

I would change conscripts so that:

1. A commissar can only affect 1 squad of conscripts.
2. Morale losses /w commissar are reduced to 1/2, not to 1.
3. Commissars are no longer characters.

I think the current counter to conscript blobs is sniping the Commissar and then unloading on the conscripts.

The only real problem is for armies that don't have access to reasonably costed sniper or equivalent options.

So IMO, the answer is to provide sniping or equivalent options to remove the buffing units - especially since Commissars are not that tough.

They are overpowered, mainly because no other infantry in the entire game are as tough as conscripts for their points. You can look at termagaunts and grots for close equivalents. Conscripts blow both out of the water. So yeah, put them at 4 ppm and things get better (though they are still better than termagaunts....).

One issue people have is that making conscripts cost the same as normal guardsman *feels* wrong. But the fact is, being able to take so many in a single unit is a large advantage, given how both orders and auras work. It's why termagaunts can (sorta) get away with costing the same price as normal guardsmen, taking them in units of 30 really makes synapse and other boosts easier to distribute efficiently.

Also, just to make this clear: No termagaunts are not more deadly than conscripts. Even at 4 points conscripts would have the edge, 12" of range or twice the shots beats an extra point of BS and S. The spike rifle is even worse (though mixed kinda mitigates the range issue... but just enough to try and compete with conscripts) and the pistol weapon is only better if you want your unit to assault....

 Aesthete wrote:
I think the current counter to conscript blobs is sniping the Commissar and then unloading on the conscripts.

The only real problem is for armies that don't have access to reasonably costed sniper or equivalent options.

So IMO, the answer is to provide sniping or equivalent options to remove the buffing units - especially since Commissars are not that tough.

Having a single unit, if that, per army that can counter a strategy is horrifically bad design. Imperial Knights weren't that bad last edition, you at least had multiple options for removing them. Forcing snipers is a step back from that.

if snipers must be run to remove heros, then any claim to balance made by this edition should be routinely and to thoroughly mocked. Killing the commissar should not be the *only* effective way to deal with them.

It's not the only way to deal with them. You can just kill them the old fashioned way, a T3/5+ is not that difficult to remove.

Especially since their offensive output drops rapidly as they take casualties. You don't have to wipe the whole unit, just enough to get them out of your way and cripple their shooting. Get them down to under 20 models and even their value as a FRFSRF target starts to become dubious, due to the difference between BS5+ and BS4+.

 ross-128 wrote:
It's not the only way to deal with them. You can just kill them the old fashioned way, a T3/5+ is not that difficult to remove.

Especially since their offensive output drops rapidly as they take casualties. You don't have to wipe the whole unit, just enough to get them out of your way and cripple their shooting. Get them down to under 20 models and even their value as a FRFSRF target starts to become dubious, due to the difference between BS5+ and BS4+.

I did not say only way, I said only effective way. Killing the commissar is the only effective way, because otherwise you must drop an absurd amount of firepower into the unit to kill it. Generally speaking, twice as much as you would for other infantry units of similar overall cost. Which si an absurd level of effectiveness.

To explain more: Shooting grots or termagaunts without killing the character giving them fearless is an option, because even without morale I can drop them in somewhat efficient manner. Killing the character first would be ideal, but I can get by without doing that. But conscripts are so much more resilient than other units that... I just can't clear them effectively. Because conscripts are so cheap yet surprisingly tough. So, saying I can shoot conscripts down without killing the commissar is true. I can also kill imperial knights with power axes or overcharged plasma. It's a horrifically ineffective way to go about it.

Also, the main thing they do is hug objectives, and given how objectives work, clearing all or most is needed. That must be an option, one that is effective and points efficient.

Wow people are being hyperbolic. I just heard that the amount of firepower required to kill 30 conscripts is absurd.

Haven't we had that firepower since like 3rd? I'm pretty sure my tank companies in 3rd used to blow guardsmen to smithereens pretty easily.

And their primary purpose is to be a damage sponge. If "efficiently' removing them from the board was trivial, they wouldn't be much of a sponge now would they?

Besides, gaunts are arguably overcosted because they don't stack up so well against Boyz either.

Conscripts have a clearly defined role and they're good at doing it. Why is that a bad thing?

Exactly. The conscripts are for soaking damage. If you make them bad at soaking damage, then.. what?

I'm sorry Space Marines are kind of good at everything while Guard have units that specialize. You guys seem jealous.

 Marmatag wrote:
If you throw 80 Bolter dice at conscripts, that's only 30 dead. That takes more than double the cost of the squad, counting the commissar, to deal 60% damage. It's hard to think of a unit that isn't blatantly undercosted, where you could invest more than double its cost in the *most optimal* method of removal, and deal only 60% damage.

Imagine throwing 1,000 points worth of melta, in melta range, into an imperial knight, and seeing it still running around with 8 wounds remaining. That's the level of defensive efficiency the conscripts enjoy.

That's at single tap range, move to double tap range and your damage distribution becomes enough to wipe the squad with those 160 bolter shots. Meanwhile you've lost 5 space marines at most from the entire 80. You traded 65 points to get rid of 150, and now there's probably a visible character you can assault. Sounds like a win?

I mean, that melta example sure sounds horrifying! Lets think about that for a while and see if it really is though. At 24 wounds, 4.5 damage per shot, that's 5.3 melta hits. You'd need 10.6 meltas to do that on average. You'd need 16 meltas to get that, and that's just the average result. Most direct route would be 20 sternguard, all with meltas (because you don't want to just hope for the average, do you?). So now you're up to 660 points, but you need a delivery mechanism otherwise you wouldn't be able to get all 20 there without SOMETHING getting killed surely. Drop pods won't cut it, so I guess you're going to have to go with either a land raider or a storm raven. Land raider is way too expensive, and the stormraven is, what, 200 points-ish once you put guns on it? 250? So you're up to about 1100 to get the meltas there, but you got a couple multimeltas on the stormravens, so lets cheapen out with a handful of guys and say 16 guys in two stormravens, relying on the melta from the storm ravens, and that they reliably make it there without losing either of the ravens. So yeah, about 1000 points or so, with average result of killing a Knight in one turn. Could still easily have 8 wounds on it if the rolls swung badly.

In other news, I saw that scouts actually got way better this edition. Honestly, if I was starting a SM army, I'd probably just bring nothing but scouts with sniper rifles for infantry. It's not great shooting, but it does anything you need to do at better range than the bolters do. Probably, or something.

I would change conscripts so that:

1. A commissar can only affect 1 squad of conscripts.
2. Morale losses /w commissar are reduced to 1/2, not to 1.
3. Commissars are no longer characters.

1 breaks the way aura rules work fundamentally by creating a single special case.
2 makes commissars fundamentally unhelpful for anything other than conscripts.
3 is what I want in addition to my combined squads back. It would fix the problem, but only in the way that it rendered both commissars and conscripts pointless. You'd also have to make the LC and Yarrick do something other than what the commissars do (which would be really strange thematically) otherwise, you'd be right back in the same situation you were in beforehand, except with people using an HQ instead of an elite.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Exactly. The conscripts are for soaking damage. If you make them bad at soaking damage, then.. what?

I'm sorry Space Marines are kind of good at everything while Guard have units that specialize. You guys seem jealous.

Every unit should have a counter though. Right now there's hardly anything game wide that checks conscripts, even things that thematically should, like whirlwind castellans, flamers etc.

Similar to a land raider. Most of its points are tied up in its durability, but it can be KO'd on the cheap by weapons meant for the job. All we want is for weapons meant for the job of killing t3/5+ efficiently to actually...work efficiently. If you don't also want that, we'll then you're probably a guard player enjoying your time with an OP unit.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow people are being hyperbolic. I just heard that the amount of firepower required to kill 30 conscripts is absurd.

Haven't we had that firepower since like 3rd? I'm pretty sure my tank companies in 3rd used to blow guardsmen to smithereens pretty easily.

Except this changed. A lot. Bolters and most similar basic weapons no longer ignore the conscripts armor saves. Large blast weapons are now notably less effective at clearing out hordes as well, 3 shots and 2 hits is now the average, a big step down (so your tank squadrons won't do it very well these days I imagine.

Also: conscripts are not actually bad at putting out damage. I have no idea why people keep saying this. Some of that is orders, but even just for their cost they are great. Four conscripts put out and more hurt than a single tactical marine, while being cheaper. Three put out compareable damage to a vanguard, despite being cheaper and vanguard being designed to but out a ton of str 3. As far as basic low strength firepower, conscripts are arguably the best there is due to cost alone.

At 4 points, they'd still be tough and have more firepower than you keep insisting. They'd still be perfectly viable, because they'd be balanced against every other infantry unit in the game.

SilverAlien wrote:
Having a single unit, if that, per army that can counter a strategy is horrifically bad design. Imperial Knights weren't that bad last edition, you at least had multiple options for removing them. Forcing snipers is a step back from that.

if snipers must be run to remove heros, then any claim to balance made by this edition should be routinely and to thoroughly mocked. Killing the commissar should not be the *only* effective way to deal with them.

If having a single unit that can do that is bad, then the solution is to provide more than one unit that's a response to squishy buffer characters.

Bottom line is that the existence of buffing characters is a fundamental part of 8E's design. Ideally if you're building a decent TAC list you'll bring some tools to deal with those scenarios beyond writing "nerf it" on the internet. If you have no such tools available in your index/ codex that's the thing that needs fixing.

SilverAlien wrote:


Except this changed. A lot. Bolters and most similar basic weapons no longer ignore the conscripts armor saves. Large blast weapons are now notably less effective at clearing out hordes as well, 3 shots and 2 hits is now the average, a big step down (so your tank squadrons won't do it very well these days I imagine.

20 bolters now:
A: 20 S: 4 AP: 0 D: 1 @ BS or WS: 3+
vs T: 3 sv 5+
Damage Outcomes percent
0 8 0.1%
1 69 0.7%
2 310 3.1%
3 733 7.3%
4 1316 13.2%
5 1875 18.8%
6 1877 18.8%
7 1636 16.4%
8 1108 11.1%
9 629 6.3%
10 289 2.9%
11 101 1.0%
12 31 0.3%
13 15 0.1%
14 2 0.0%
15 1 0.0%

20 bolters before:
A: 20 S: 4 AP: -2 D: 1 @ BS or WS: 3+
vs T: 3 sv 5+
Damage Outcomes percent
2 6 0.1%
3 42 0.4%
4 167 1.7%
5 378 3.8%
6 832 8.3%
7 1291 12.9%
8 1605 16.1%
9 1765 17.6%
10 1581 15.8%
11 1153 11.5%
12 680 6.8%
13 315 3.1%
14 126 1.3%
15 48 0.5%
16 8 0.1%
17 3 0.0%

4-8 now vs 7-11 then. Instead of killing 20 and them not caring, you'd be killing 26 and them not caring.

How is it that everyone is having a hard time killing conscripts? Are you able to kill ork boyz? What about genestealer spam? What army lists are you running? You don't need to kill conscript squads in one turn, you need to kill them in 5-6 turns. If you are fighting a imperial knight you normally cant kill it in one turn. You kill it over 3-4 turns with some specialized weapons. Correct me if I am wrong but, you spam melta and lascannons to kill of the knight. What would you take to kill off light infantry?

To be honest, if they were going to cost the same as guardsmen I would want them to have BS4+. They can keep their WS5+ and LD4, but they'd at least need BS4+. At that point they'd still be strictly worse than guardsmen on their own, but applying their buff efficiency to BS4+ would be enough to make up their other drawbacks.

With their current stat line, if I had to choose between 4-point conscripts and 4-point guardsmen I'd take the guardsmen every time.

As far as the comparison between guardsmen and space marines, the difference between them is quite small and is entirely accounted for by the fact that a tactical marine is T4/3+, LD7/8, has ATSKNF, has Chapter Tactics, and has an extra weapon that they basically just use for melee. The tactical marine is paying for a good deal more than just its ability to wound T3 models.

After all, let's say hypothetically we made tactical marines just as cheap a source of shooting as conscripts, and we made conscripts just as easy to remove from the board. Would that be fair to the conscripts? Or would the conscripts be screwed because a tactical marine can do everything they do just as well, while also enjoying a bunch of other advantages that they don't pay for?

 daedalus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If you throw 80 Bolter dice at conscripts, that's only 30 dead. That takes more than double the cost of the squad, counting the commissar, to deal 60% damage. It's hard to think of a unit that isn't blatantly undercosted, where you could invest more than double its cost in the *most optimal* method of removal, and deal only 60% damage.

Imagine throwing 1,000 points worth of melta, in melta range, into an imperial knight, and seeing it still running around with 8 wounds remaining. That's the level of defensive efficiency the conscripts enjoy.

That's at single tap range, move to double tap range and your damage distribution becomes enough to wipe the squad with those 160 bolter shots. Meanwhile you've lost 5 space marines at most from the entire 80. You traded 65 points to get rid of 150, and now there's probably a visible character you can assault. Sounds like a win?

No, it's assuming double tap range with storm bolters, or 420 points of Grey Knights strike squads. If you were to do this with basic tacticals, in rapid fire, you'd need 40 of them, or 520 points. Much higher.

 daedalus wrote:
I mean, that melta example sure sounds horrifying! Lets think about that for a while and see if it really is though. At 24 wounds, 4.5 damage per shot, that's 5.3 melta hits. You'd need 10.6 meltas to do that on average. You'd need 16 meltas to get that, and that's just the average result.

Which is still considerably cheaper than 250% of the cost of a Knight, is the point. You can remove the Knight without investing over 1100 points into killing it. But all meltas isn't a real example. In reality you'd use a combination of lascannon and melta, and you'd devote some points to force-multipliers for rerolls. Because you can easily afford all of that for 1100-1200 points.

 daedalus wrote:
In other news, I saw that scouts actually got way better this edition. Honestly, if I was starting a SM army, I'd probably just bring nothing but scouts with sniper rifles for infantry. It's not great shooting, but it does anything you need to do at better range than the bolters do. Probably, or something.

Scouts cannot shoot a target they cannot see. Scouts DO NOT counter conscripts + commissars.

 daedalus wrote:

I would change conscripts so that:

1. A commissar can only affect 1 squad of conscripts.
2. Morale losses /w commissar are reduced to 1/2, not to 1.
3. Commissars are no longer characters.

1 breaks the way aura rules work fundamentally by creating a single special case.
2 makes commissars fundamentally unhelpful for anything other than conscripts.
3 is what I want in addition to my combined squads back. It would fix the problem, but only in the way that it rendered both commissars and conscripts pointless. You'd also have to make the LC and Yarrick do something other than what the commissars do (which would be really strange thematically) otherwise, you'd be right back in the same situation you were in beforehand, except with people using an HQ instead of an elite.

1. Check out the rules for an apothecary, it should work similarly.
2. Not really, guard + sergeant = 7 leadership, which is the same as death company. Commissars still increase leadership to 9.
3. If this would make commissars worthless, then shouldn't snipers make commissars worthless? Oh wait they don't, because that doesn't always work. You'd still need equipment that can fire without line of sight to hit the commissar. In any practical example you cannot see the commissar to shoot him.

Unless those conscripts are packed shoulder to shoulder in staggered ranks specifically to form a LoS wall, and the commissar is modeled in a crouching stance (because most commissar models are taller than conscript models, due to the hat), you have LoS to the commissar.

And even if they did do the above specifically to block LoS, any elevated firing position will negate that.

I will say that if you're trying to wipe conscripts with tactical marines, don't just stand and shoot them (unless you have cover and they don't, in which case 2+ save vs 5+ will probably tilt it in your favor). Shoot then charge. Yes, they'll overwatch you, but eating 6+ overwatch is vastly preferable to eating 5+ FRFSRF.

And don't expect to wipe them in one turn unless you really commit resources to it. Because their entire job is to be a speed bump that takes either a good deal of time or a good deal of overkill to dislodge.

 ross-128 wrote:
It's not the only way to deal with them. You can just kill them the old fashioned way, a T3/5+ is not that difficult to remove.

Especially since their offensive output drops rapidly as they take casualties. You don't have to wipe the whole unit, just enough to get them out of your way and cripple their shooting. Get them down to under 20 models and even their value as a FRFSRF target starts to become dubious, due to the difference between BS5+ and BS4+.

Each individual conscript is very easy to kill, the problem is doing it efficiently. 100 conscripts represent a relatively small amount of points, if you want to kill them then you will have to dedicate quite a few points to that task - this means less points dedicated to killing the rest of the AM army. Which army you play makes a big difference in terms of conscript-killing efficiency. Admech has probably the most efficient answer in the Kastelan Robot, killing 7-8 conscripts per turn per 110 point model with decent durability and long range. That's about 27 points of conscripts (including overhead for support) per turn, with the best answer out there. To illustrate the point we can look at the efficiency against another target. If you fire the same Kastelan Robot at MEQ it dishes out 4 unsaved wounds per turn, which is at least 52 points worth of losses. Notably the conscripts typically put out greater firepower per point than the typical MEQ unit.

sossen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
It's not the only way to deal with them. You can just kill them the old fashioned way, a T3/5+ is not that difficult to remove.

Especially since their offensive output drops rapidly as they take casualties. You don't have to wipe the whole unit, just enough to get them out of your way and cripple their shooting. Get them down to under 20 models and even their value as a FRFSRF target starts to become dubious, due to the difference between BS5+ and BS4+.

Each individual conscript is very easy to kill, the problem is doing it efficiently. 100 conscripts represent a relatively small amount of points, if you want to kill them then you will have to dedicate quite a few points to that task - this means less points dedicated to killing the rest of the AM army. Which army you play makes a big difference in terms of conscript-killing efficiency. Admech has probably the most efficient answer in the Kastelan Robot, killing 7-8 conscripts per turn per 110 point model with decent durability and long range. That's about 27 points of conscripts (including overhead for support) per turn, with the best answer out there. To illustrate the point we can look at the efficiency against another target. If you fire the same Kastelan Robot at MEQ it dishes out 4 unsaved wounds per turn, which is at least 52 points worth of losses. Notably the conscripts typically put out greater firepower per point than the typical MEQ unit.

Well yes. Soaking up shots that would be more efficiently used on other units is their job. If you make killing them just as efficient as killing anything else, that would remove their entire purpose for existing.

 Aesthete wrote:
If having a single unit that can do that is bad, then the solution is to provide more than one unit that's a response to squishy buffer characters.

Bottom line is that the existence of buffing characters is a fundamental part of 8E's design. Ideally if you're building a decent TAC list you'll bring some tools to deal with those scenarios beyond writing "nerf it" on the internet. If you have no such tools available in your index/ codex that's the thing that needs fixing.

Or we could acknowledge the issue is most characters aren't effective to nearly the degree commissars and conscripts (negating its singular main disadvantage at a token price) are when they interact, and adjust the point cost. Comissars are fine with almost every other unit, so increasing the price of conscripts is the correct call, as one disadvantage (morale) will never be felt when fielded in a sensible way.

 ross-128 wrote:
To be honest, if they were going to cost the same as guardsmen I would want them to have BS4+. They can keep their WS5+ and LD4, but they'd at least need BS4+. At that point they'd still be strictly worse than guardsmen on their own, but applying their buff efficiency to BS4+ would be enough to make up their other drawbacks.

With their current stat line, if I had to choose between 4-point conscripts and 4-point guardsmen I'd take the guardsmen every time.

You realize forcing you to choose between guardsman at 5 points would be far more balanced than buffing conscripts? Guardsman at 5 would still as good or better than compareable units for the cost. Better than cultists, compareable to neophyte hybrids, etc.

If being able to take them in large units isn't worth a downgrade to BS and WS (because leadership doesn't matter for guard), the guard only being able to be taken in units of 10 isn't a large enough downside for them to be cheaper than other units who can be taken in larger sizes.

Seriously guard players, go look at what every other army pays for its units, then look at yours. I don't think you realize how underpriced a huge chunk of your units are compared to everyone else. Do look internally to see if your units are balanced, you will likely just compare it to anothe underpriced unit. Look at what every other balanced army has to pay.

 ross-128 wrote:
Well yes. Soaking up shots that would be more efficiently used on other units is their job. If you make killing them just as efficient as killing anything else, that would remove their entire purpose for existing.

No it wouldn't. First off, we'd be making them as good as *every other unit whose entire purpose is to soak damage and hold objectives*. Of which they are currently better than for no good reason.

Secondly, they'd still be better at it than many, due to commissars and commanders being such huge for multipliers when used with them. They just wouldn't be better to such an absurd degree.

Find me a unit that can hold ground as well as 4 point conscripts actually. Find me any unit that can hold ground that well.

Conscripts are fine. The problem is commissars negating the baked in flaw of conscripts, which is they lose more models to morale losses than the enemy actually inflicts. If all they said was "Conscripts are so cowardly they ignore the 'encouragement' of Commissars" then we'd not be having this discussion. Or make the Commissar's ability slay one model for every 10 in the unit instead of just one.

sossen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
It's not the only way to deal with them. You can just kill them the old fashioned way, a T3/5+ is not that difficult to remove.

Especially since their offensive output drops rapidly as they take casualties. You don't have to wipe the whole unit, just enough to get them out of your way and cripple their shooting. Get them down to under 20 models and even their value as a FRFSRF target starts to become dubious, due to the difference between BS5+ and BS4+.

Each individual conscript is very easy to kill, the problem is doing it efficiently. 100 conscripts represent a relatively small amount of points, if you want to kill them then you will have to dedicate quite a few points to that task - this means less points dedicated to killing the rest of the AM army. Which army you play makes a big difference in terms of conscript-killing efficiency. Admech has probably the most efficient answer in the Kastelan Robot, killing 7-8 conscripts per turn per 110 point model with decent durability and long range. That's about 27 points of conscripts (including overhead for support) per turn, with the best answer out there. To illustrate the point we can look at the efficiency against another target. If you fire the same Kastelan Robot at MEQ it dishes out 4 unsaved wounds per turn, which is at least 52 points worth of losses. Notably the conscripts typically put out greater firepower per point than the typical MEQ unit.

You still have to factor in the cost of the Commissar to this, otherwise those 7-8 dead conscripts are also removing a minimum of 4 more bodies from the unit at the end of the turn. With the Commissar it is still 1 additional dead Conscript. If you want to give the Conscripts orders too, you need an officer as well standing right on top of them. Remember, Conscripts live and die by their buff auras - if they get out of it for any reason they are going to drop.

Conscripts can use a nudge, but nerfing the Commissar to be completely unusable is not the answer. Instead giving Conscripts some "Untested" rule, that makes them suffer 1d3 or 1d6 losses to morale from a Commissar would probably fix things - they are still a roadblock but morale still shifts them.

On the other hand, probably the best answer is to just ignore them - fire your big guns at the tanks, and only fire your leftover guns at the Conscripts - its not like they are going to be going anywhere fast without dedicating officers left and right to have them march.

 ross-128 wrote:
Well yes. Soaking up shots that would be more efficiently used on other units is their job. If you make killing them just as efficient as killing anything else, that would remove their entire purpose for existing.

Which would be fine if that was all they did, but they put out a significant amount of firepower as well. An equivalent amount of points put into tactical marines with bolters gives you half the firepower. The tactical marines put out less damage when they are in rapid fire range and the conscripts aren't.

 Marmatag wrote:
Which is still considerably cheaper than 250% of the cost of a Knight, is the point. You can remove the Knight without investing over 1100 points into killing it. But all meltas isn't a real example. In reality you'd use a combination of lascannon and melta, and you'd devote some points to force-multipliers for rerolls. Because you can easily afford all of that for 1100-1200 points.

Sure, but the Knight can actually DO things to you other than just get in your way. I was not trying to suggest that melta sternguard + storm ravens was actually the best way to deal with a knight. I was just showing you how it was actually well within the sphere of believably for a literal 1000 points of melta to leave 8 wounds left on a Knight.

Scouts cannot shoot a target they cannot see. Scouts DO NOT counter conscripts + commissars.

How often is this really an issue? Based upon what I've seen locally and at Adepticon, you're not really hiding stuff very often. Maybe that's changed recently?

Maybe take a Vindicare? You're shutting down 300 points with >100 then. Maybe that's a better ratio.

1. Check out the rules for an apothecary, it should work similarly.
2. Not really, guard + sergeant = 7 leadership, which is the same as death company. Commissars still increase leadership to 9.
3. If this would make commissars worthless, then shouldn't snipers make commissars worthless? Oh wait they don't, because that doesn't always work. You'd still need equipment that can fire without line of sight to hit the commissar. In any practical example you cannot see the commissar to shoot him.

1. I'm uncertain how that would work in this hypothetical situation because one is an ability you willfully use during your movement phase and the other one is an aura. Are you suggesting it designates a squad to affect? Should there be a 4+ involved? Should it not be able to do anything else that turn?
2. Commissar increases leadership to 8. I guess I'd have to see it in action.
3. It renders commissars worthless because your spare autocannon would make him disappear unless the board was set up in some sort of way that always let you totally deny LOS (which seems very unlikely) and then he's stuck in literally one spot. Snipers don't make commissars worthless because in every single discussion about snipers I've seen on Dakka, people say "but they suuuuuuck!" and then ignore them. I think the guard thread is the only place I've seen people get excited about snipers, amusingly enough.

I kinda want to see this crazy game where you've got a commissar running through this parking lot of... well, not russes, because no one takes those, and no chimeras, because no one takes those. Uh... basilisks and tauroxen then, I guess, darting from hull to hull in the dangerous game of keeping the blob from just melting down while staying away from the two sniper rifles that are somewhere in the opponent's army.

kurhanik wrote:
You still have to factor in the cost of the Commissar to this, otherwise those 7-8 dead conscripts are also removing a minimum of 4 more bodies from the unit at the end of the turn. With the Commissar it is still 1 additional dead Conscript. If you want to give the Conscripts orders too, you need an officer as well standing right on top of them. Remember, Conscripts live and die by their buff auras - if they get out of it for any reason they are going to drop.

Conscripts can use a nudge, but nerfing the Commissar to be completely unusable is not the answer. Instead giving Conscripts some "Untested" rule, that makes them suffer 1d3 or 1d6 losses to morale from a Commissar would probably fix things - they are still a roadblock but morale still shifts them.

On the other hand, probably the best answer is to just ignore them - fire your big guns at the tanks, and only fire your leftover guns at the Conscripts - its not like they are going to be going anywhere fast without dedicating officers left and right to have them march.

I did factor in the cost of the commissar and the commander. As for the morale losses, I think that MEQ lose more points on average from those. I don't want to include morale losses - if you are trying to kill a conscript unit you are probably putting more fire into the same unit from multiple sources, with only 1 morale loss in total.

 Marmatag wrote:
If you throw 80 Bolter dice at conscripts, that's only 30 dead. That takes more than double the cost of the squad, counting the commissar, to deal 60% damage. It's hard to think of a unit that isn't blatantly undercosted, where you could invest more than double its cost in the *most optimal* method of removal, and deal only 60% damage.

Imagine throwing 1,000 points worth of melta, in melta range, into an imperial knight, and seeing it still running around with 8 wounds remaining. That's the level of defensive efficiency the conscripts enjoy.

I would change conscripts so that:

1. A commissar can only affect 1 squad of conscripts.
2. Morale losses /w commissar are reduced to 1/2, not to 1.
3. Commissars are no longer characters.

There is a huge difference in intent that you're ignoring here.

You don't take an imperial knight in order to use it's large wound pool as a delaying tactic. You take them because they carry a freaking ton of guns, all of which are extremely scary.

Conscripts, OTOH, are not taken for their scary flash-lights or lack of melee weapons. You take them specifically because they take a while to kill. Any damage they deal is just a bonus.

These two units have completely different goals, and are completely non-comparable.

Better comparisons are large squad units like Tyranid Hormagaunts, Termagaunts, Genestealers, or Ripper Swarms. Necron Scarabs. Ork Boyz and Kommandos. Chaos Cultists, Brimstone Horrors, and Tzaangors. Tau Empire Kroot. Warlock-supported storm guardians, Wytches, and beast cults.

Conscripts are, arguably (very arguably. There are many arguments against) the top of this pile. Comparing them to an Imperial Knight is really, really disingenuous.


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 ross-128 wrote:
And their primary purpose is to be a damage sponge. If "efficiently' removing them from the board was trivial, they wouldn't be much of a sponge now would they?

Besides, gaunts are arguably overcosted because they don't stack up so well against Boyz either.

Conscripts have a clearly defined role and they're good at doing it. Why is that a bad thing?

Gaunts have advantages over boyz and conscripts. First, both boyz and gaunts can move-advance-shoot-and-assault. This justifies a LOT of their additional costs. Second, Boyz don't have access to a monstrous character that poops out 10 additional gaunts per turn for no additional points. Sure you have to run them un-upgraded to take advantage of it, but that's one hell of a tarpitting mechanism. All on top of being completely immune to morale. Not "might as well as be immune", like Orks who will fail morale like anyone else in the game if you can kill at least half of the squad if they're even a little bit isolated from the rest of the ork army.

Utterly immune as long as they're within synapse.

That is a good point about the Tervigon. It could pretty much be considered the 'gaunt equivalent of a commissar. It makes them fearless (real fearless, which is better than the "discount fearless" a commissar grants), it's a beefy MC in its own right, and it allows the gaunts to basically pretend they're necrons, any you kill are likely to come back.

For space marines: Centurion Devastator Squad. Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. You will out range them at the beginning of the game and you should have first turn. you will be killing 6 conscripts at 36 inch, 12.5 at 24 inch., and 18.3 at 12 inch. 50 conscripts with a commissar and orders will be doing 0 wounds at 36 in. 1.6 wounds at 24 in. and 3.2 wounds at 12 inch. Utilize the fact that you should have first turn and weapons range. You don't have to worry about cover because of the omniscope, and you can move and shoot heavy weapons. These guys should win the firefight and are capable of killing more than just conscripts if you are facing a different type of army. Or two razorbacks with twin assault cannons. you will be killing 11.5 per turn at 24 inch. 50 with FRFSRF will be doing 1.6 wounds back at 24 inch.

Conscripts can be defeated if you have the correct weapons. You can't win a tournament buy spamming grav and melta anymore. You need to add a dedicated anti infantry element to your army in 8th. This is part of the reason IG are doing so well right now is because they always have dedicated anti infantry firepower due to numbers of shots that in previous editions would have been wasted because of the lack of split fire.

 ross-128 wrote:
That is a good point about the Tervigon. It could pretty much be considered the 'gaunt equivalent of a commissar. It makes them fearless (real fearless, which is better than the "discount fearless" a commissar grants), it's a beefy MC in its own right, and it allows the gaunts to basically pretend they're necrons, any you kill are likely to come back.

And how much does it cost? 220 points before factoring in wargear. That puts a pretty har dlimit on how many you field, and considering it has no ranged weapons besides a piddly 18" assault 4 heavy bolter and all of 3 melee attacks, you are taking it entirely for the aura.

The HQ does almost nothing besides buff and cost more than a squad of conscripts with two HQs buffing it, and you are like "see this proves conscripts aren't OP!" Pricing is everything guys, and Tyranids actually have to pay reasonable points for the advantages they get.

 Arandmoor wrote:
Gaunts have advantages over boyz and conscripts. First, both boyz and gaunts can move-advance-shoot-and-assault.

No they can't. They cannot advance and charge in the same turn. They can shoot and charge, but every unit can do that. They cna advance and shoot at a penalty to the hit roll, but that partially compensates for the reduced range on their weapons (12 and 18 comapred to 24 for conscripts).

 Howscat wrote:
For space marines: Centurion Devastator Squad. Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. You will out range them at the beginning of the game and you should have first turn. you will be killing 6 conscripts at 36 inch, 12.5 at 24 inch., and 18.3 at 12 inch. 50 conscripts with a commissar and orders will be doing 0 wounds at 36 in. 1.6 wounds at 24 in. and 3.2 wounds at 12 inch. Utilize the fact that you should have first turn and weapons range. You don't have to worry about cover because of the omniscope, and you can move and shoot heavy weapons. These guys should win the firefight and are capable of killing more than just conscripts if you are facing a different type of army. Or two razorbacks with twin assault cannons. you will be killing 11.5 per turn at 24 inch. 50 with FRFSRF will be doing 1.6 wounds back at 24 inch.

Conscripts can be defeated if you have the correct weapons. You can't win a tournament buy spamming grav and melta anymore. You need to add a dedicated anti infantry element to your army in 8th. This is part of the reason IG are doing so well right now is because they always have dedicated anti infantry firepower due to numbers of shots that in previous editions would have been wasted because of the lack of split fire.

Okay, now try listing a few units that don't pay a huge point increase over the conscripts to slowly chip away at them over multiple turns, maybe killing them near the final turn.

Yes they can die, they just take way more firepower than their price tag justifies. More than any other unit of a similar cost. If you disagree, find me any infantry unit that is, for its price, as tough as conscripts. I'll wait.