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Another way Guard can enter into turn one assault is using Valkyries to air drop units. It's funny when your opponent suddenly has a group of Ogryns to deal with.

Tau is one of the armies most capable of doing turn 1 assaults

 Karhedron wrote:
The question you have to ask is, what can you achieve with a T1 assault?

Melee causes less disruption in 8th than it did in 7th as units can just withdraw. If you assault with a handful of units, the enemy will likely withdraw from combat and the rest of their army will then shoot your attackers while they are unsupported.

If you're assaulting multiple units and it didn't cripple their ability to respond you're either playing against an entire army of flyers, Knights, or you're making poor target selections.

I run a unit of 10 seraphim that I just congaline across a couple of tanks turn 1 and then by the time they back out and kill the seraphim my dominions are there and their army isn't.

 Karhedron wrote:
The question you have to ask is, what can you achieve with a T1 assault?

Melee causes less disruption in 8th than it did in 7th as units can just withdraw. If you assault with a handful of units, the enemy will likely withdraw from combat and the rest of their army will then shoot your attackers while they are unsupported.

This right here is the most intelligent post I have seen.

I played an ITC tournament where I drew a Girlyman gunline as one of my opponents. IF I had dropped my Kommandos in on turn 1 they would have died gloriously and then he would have eaten my other units alive afterwards from a nice safe distance. Instead I kept all my reserves and advanced my Boyz blobs turn 1. He shot the crap out of me and obliterated 1 blob entirely but turn 2 started with me dropped 30 boy, 35 Kommandos and 4 Deff Koptas either in, behind or directly in front of his lines. Then my Boyz blobs advanced and got within charge range as well. This caused him to lose his mind and he wasted most of his 2nd and 3rd turns disengaging from CC while trying to kill my closest mobz. Ghaz arrived turn 3 and ate a Predator by himself and then slapped girlyman around for the win.

ALWAYS use your head. Never waste reserves

SemperMortis wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
The question you have to ask is, what can you achieve with a T1 assault?

Melee causes less disruption in 8th than it did in 7th as units can just withdraw. If you assault with a handful of units, the enemy will likely withdraw from combat and the rest of their army will then shoot your attackers while they are unsupported.

This right here is the most intelligent post I have seen.

I played an ITC tournament where I drew a Girlyman gunline as one of my opponents. IF I had dropped my Kommandos in on turn 1 they would have died gloriously and then he would have eaten my other units alive afterwards from a nice safe distance. Instead I kept all my reserves and advanced my Boyz blobs turn 1. He shot the crap out of me and obliterated 1 blob entirely but turn 2 started with me dropped 30 boy, 35 Kommandos and 4 Deff Koptas either in, behind or directly in front of his lines. Then my Boyz blobs advanced and got within charge range as well. This caused him to lose his mind and he wasted most of his 2nd and 3rd turns disengaging from CC while trying to kill my closest mobz. Ghaz arrived turn 3 and ate a Predator by himself and then slapped girlyman around for the win.

ALWAYS use your head. Never waste reserves

Yup timing is more important than getting there first turn. The threat of a drop assault is meaningful. If you can stay hidden, or out of range early, and drop in say round 3, you can force your opponent to either stay bubble wrapped longer, or expose units. Also you can always trickle in a few distraction units to draw units or fire away from your main force. I did this with a weirdboy and 2 commando units in my last game, they deepstruck behind my opponents lines, and harassed a few tanks with smite + charging, did very little damage, but were able to eat fire from 6 units do to being in cover, and he over committed to trying to kill the weird boy (who was untargetable due to the Kommandos). You can also bait opponents out of position etc.

Sisters of Battle, via Hand of the Emperor and Vanguard
Tyranids, via Trygons and Tyrannocytes and Hive Commander
Orks, via Da Jump
Genestealer Cults, via Cult Ambush
Imperial Guard, via Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion
Space Marines, via Drop Pods and Sky Strike and Teleporter Strike
Chaos, via Warp Time and Sky Strike and Teleporter Strike
Necrons, via the Deceiver
Tau, via Manta Strike


The fact that not all of the armies/units actually want to be in CQC not withstanding, most armies I think can get at least 1 unit into CQC on turn 1, and some can get almost their entire force in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Karhedron wrote:
The question you have to ask is, what can you achieve with a T1 assault?

Melee causes less disruption in 8th than it did in 7th as units can just withdraw. If you assault with a handful of units, the enemy will likely withdraw from combat and the rest of their army will then shoot your attackers while they are unsupported.

A lot. A tank in close quarters is a tank not shooting at you.

Going into CQC on turn 1 is something you absolutely should be doing if you're a CQC army. Remember, you can also consolidate into new combats, so if you charge Genestealers and Hormagaunts into the enemy frontline, you can kill the chaff off with the Genestealers, pile into the next unit and kill it with the hormagaunts, and consolidate into the third line to end the game right there.


While melee units are no longer safe, they're also far more disruptive, as they still prevent units they fought from shooting, and now they can consolidate into new combats to lock down way more units at once. In addition, in previous editions, they couldn't lock a tank, but now they can also prevent a tank from firing, meaning they're entirely able to shut down enemy big guns too.


For example, I once charged 2 Land Raiders and 2 Razorbacks with Saint Celestine on turn 1. She obviously can't kill them, but that prevented them from hitting on any result other than a 6 for the rest of the game, and absolutely secured me the victory. Similarly, I've been charged by the entire Tyranid army on turn 1, and it hurts. I barely won because I brought a Shadowsword that's immune to melee.



Even charging with a small unit alone can be a ticket to victory, since, if you can divert fire into your resilient distraction unit and lock off vital shooting units, you can ensure the rest of your army makes it there.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Going into CQC on turn 1 is something you absolutely should be doing if you're a CQC army.

Bad idea unless your entire army is geared towards turn one charge or unless you've got a broken op unit that takes unproportional amount of firepower to take down like celestine. Or your units are so cheap you don't mind exchanging them for 1 turn of something not shooting.

Orks can assault turn one also with deep striking kommandos, not only by relying on weirdboyz with da jump.

 Blackie wrote:
Orks can assault turn one also with deep striking kommandos, not only by relying on weirdboyz with da jump.

And with Deff Koptas and Wartrakks/buggies/Skorchas. those are all useless though

 koooaei wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Going into CQC on turn 1 is something you absolutely should be doing if you're a CQC army.

Bad idea unless your entire army is geared towards turn one charge or unless you've got a broken op unit that takes unproportional amount of firepower to take down like celestine. Or your units are so cheap you don't mind exchanging them for 1 turn of something not shooting.

Well...

I do try to put Celestine and Seraphim into CQC, but I've also turn-1 charged with Dominions into large tanks to turn them off. For the record, in an actual Sisters army, she's much less stand out in her ability to cross the field and assault on turn 1, since Dominions and Seraphim can do it too. Dominions are shooting units, but Seraphim are dual purpose. In addition, throwing a 145 point squad of Seraphim into CQC with just about anything is a pretty good move [they have jump], since they're taking the heat off Dominions who are standing very vulnerable right in front of the enemy battle-line. Celestine is obvious actually good in melee, and makes a good choice to charge enemy Melee units or jump the battle line and kill Characters, like Commissars. A few first turn charges can absolutely end the game.

There's an Ork player who has a lot of success using DaJump to put one of his Boyz squads in turn 1, and he uses it if he has the first turn to charge enemy vehicles, and try to encircle them soas to blow them up before enemy assault units can get out. I've seen the 30 boyz translate to a locked-up Land Raider Crusader [causing all within to die when it was killed], and tie up 2 units of Necron Warriors, kill one, and consolidate into a 3rd.

I know 2 Tyranid players using Trygon Primes to deliver a large number of troops right to the enemy front door, and assaulting. As I pointed out, Genestealers and Hormagaunts together can make a devastating turn-1 charge.



Now, not all armies can build a list around turn 1 charging, but if you can build a good one, and your army is CQC focused, you absolutely should consider it. If you have a blob of boys that just wiped out a line of Conscripts and is standing in front of the second, you can bet that I'm going to be devoting a lot of my firepower to clearing those boys. They're also preventing me from moving the second rank up, thus preventing me from putting an adequate buffer in front of my tanks, and they're guaranteed a charge into my tanks. They'll take the heat off the main force, which is important, and since the wierdboy is there, they're still morale proof. Every turn your army is under Manticore and Wyvern barrage is a turn not going in your favor.



It really comes down to "can you do it, and what do you get out of it?" While Assault Marines can, they don't have re-rolls like Orks and Genestealers, and a 9" charge is unlikely at best, so they really can't unless deployed en-masse. Orks and Genestealers are much more likely to get in, and Celestine and Seraphim can start their charge from 1" away from the frontline to jump over and attack tanks behind it, so they stand to gain a lot more from going for turn 1 charges, and a lot less to lose from failing, whereas committing to enough Assault Marines to make the charge is going to give you a lot of dead assault marines and an overall weaker base, and aren't going to get a lot out of the charge. I'd note that Seraphim, Boyz, Genestealers, Trygons, Hormagaunts, and Celestine are all very strong units in their own right, while Assault Marines are much more lackluster.


I absolutely would not write it off. Assault is more powerful than it's been in a long while, and the big guns are much harder to bring down at range [or at all], so every turn faster you're in combat with them is an advantage.

If you have a blob of boys that just wiped out a line of Conscripts and is standing in front of the second, you can bet that I'm going to be devoting a lot of my firepower to clearing those boys. They're also preventing me from moving the second rank up, thus preventing me from putting an adequate buffer in front of my tanks, and they're guaranteed a charge into my tanks. They'll take the heat off the main force, which is important, and since the wierdboy is there, they're still morale proof. Every turn your army is under Manticore and Wyvern barrage is a turn not going in your favor.

I think you might be overestimating the power of alpha strikes when you don't have characters like Celestine, or acts of faith.

Additionally, you are overstating the power & survivability of Orks in this scenario.

Who can do 1st turn assaults?

Anyone who can deepstrike and roll 10 or higher on 2d.
There are various ways to make it more reliable but, literally, anyone who can deepstrike can 1st turn assault.

 Arandmoor wrote:
Who can do 1st turn assaults?

Anyone who can deepstrike and roll 10 or higher on 2d.
There are various ways to make it more reliable but, literally, anyone who can deepstrike can 1st turn assault.

You only need 9 to reach from deepstrike.

 Marmatag wrote:

If you have a blob of boys that just wiped out a line of Conscripts and is standing in front of the second, you can bet that I'm going to be devoting a lot of my firepower to clearing those boys. They're also preventing me from moving the second rank up, thus preventing me from putting an adequate buffer in front of my tanks, and they're guaranteed a charge into my tanks. They'll take the heat off the main force, which is important, and since the wierdboy is there, they're still morale proof. Every turn your army is under Manticore and Wyvern barrage is a turn not going in your favor.

I think you might be overestimating the power of alpha strikes when you don't have characters like Celestine, or acts of faith.

Additionally, you are overstating the power & survivability of Orks in this scenario.

Celestine isn't the alpha strike. 6 squads of Dominions and their tanks is. Celestine chases characters and harasses tanks, but doesn't have the damage output to kill anything other than Characters, small squads, and some small tanks. But that's besides the point.


I've seen 'stealers and 'gaunts in action, and it is, without a doubt, the scariest opposition I've faced, and a large part of that is the fact that it has a massive turn 1 charge across the entire frontline with very destructive melee units.


I've also seen the Orks do their thing, and come out on top. Part of the goal of that turn 1 charge is to reach and lock as many units as possible, and the most effective counter to it is Conscripts, which prevent it from reaching the rest of the army. However, it's better to make the turn 1 charge than not try, since the first group can clear a path for the second wave before dying, and controls what the enemy is shooting at. By dropping your boyz and charging, then consolidating forwards, you prevent my second defensive line of Conscripts from moving up to put 4" between them and the tanks, and thus ensure that when your main force arrives on turn 3 you can consolidate or pile in to the tanks themselves. In addition, the boyz up front absorb fire, because even 20 boys is enough to put a major dent in a Conscript perimeter and possibly catch a few tanks on the consolidate,

Comparatively, if you didn't send out one of your boyz mobs ahead on turn one, I'll be able to disperse forward to secure 4" between the second rank and the tanks, and 4" between the first and the second, to ensure you can't pile forward and reach the tanks, In addition, you reach the first rank on turn 2, the second rank on turn 3, and the tanks on turn 4, which is, to say the least plenty of time for me to kill 10 boyz from each squad and cut your total CQC offensive output by 45%. And that's without including the added firepower of the first rank of conscripts you killed.




Anyway, while I would probably not invest in T1 charges for SM and CSM, who don't really stand to gain a whole lot from throwing 10 Assault Marines forward, assuming they even make it, Orks and Tyranids are a lot more powerful with even a single unit and absolutely can make the most of it to shut down enemy maneuver and drive the game to a swift conclusion in their favor. And, for what it's worth, re-rolls and adrenal glands make a huge difference, it seems, since I've never seen the Tyranid player fail his charges out of deepstrike, and I've only seen the Ork player fail it once.

A turn 1 assault is a hilariously powerful thing. Seraphim are not CQC troops, but they still want to be charging out of the gate because the sheer power and value of turn-1 charging. And while I agree that not all armies can make effective use of it, even though everyone can do it, armies that can make the most out of it should at least strongly consider it as a tactical tool.

Turn 1 charges are pointless because of the fall back rule. It's that simple.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Turn 1 charges are pointless because of the fall back rule. It's that simple.

Are you kidding me?

Fall Back is the only thing keeping it from being so utterly broken that armies consist solely of Vanguard Veterans, Seraphim, Stormboys, and other deep-strike-and-charge troops.

You are aware that units that fell back cannot shoot, and unlike in previous editions, vehicles are subject to this rule too? You are aware that you can consolidate into new combats, spreading the number of units prevented from shooting fairly wide?


Close Combat is more powerful than it's been for editions; Fall Back keeps shooting viable as a game plan.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Turn 1 charges are pointless because of the fall back rule. It's that simple.

I'm surprised at the lack of analytical depth in this statement.

Do you play 40k or just read about it?

There is some truth to what he's saying, just not with that level of hyperbole. Alpha strikes, via deep strike, don't work on Astra gunlines.

This doesn't apply to armies, like Sisters, who can race across the field, and are equipped with anti-horde weaponry. There's a reason that in ITC rankings, Sisters are one of the highest rated armies, along with Astra Millitarum / Guard.

Saying alpha strikes work, because they work for you, is like saying Black Mambas pose 0 danger, because they are in Africa, and you are not.

 Marmatag wrote:
Alpha strikes, via deep strike, don't work on Astra gunlines.

Depends on how it's done. IG gunlines are resistant to it, but the shock damage from a powerful alpha strike can very much lead to chewing right through to tie up important shooting units, lowering the list's overall firepower. When consolidating and choosing assault targets, you need to be clever about it.

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Alpha strikes, via deep strike, don't work on Astra gunlines.

Depends on how it's done. IG gunlines are resistant to it, but the shock damage from a powerful alpha strike can very much lead to chewing right through to tie up important shooting units, lowering the list's overall firepower. When consolidating and choosing assault targets, you need to be clever about it.

No disagreement here.

I have personally found that transports are the best way to get close. Failing a deep strike charge is catastrophic. Planning for a turn 2 charge, after disembarking, is much safer.

But again, I play the percentages. And, there's no reason you can't deploy differently if someone does leave him/herself wide open to DS alpha.

Yeah, Rhino transports are some of the best there are right now for points, durability, and capacity.

They're as difficult for a guard player's anti-tank to take down as conscripts are for most marine armies.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, Rhino transports are some of the best there are right now for points, durability, and capacity.

They're as difficult for a guard player's anti-tank to take down as conscripts are for most marine armies.

I use land raiders and storm ravens, but the principle is the same. Rhinos are durable, but they have to be, because they are so limited in what they can transport.

Ironically, Grey Knights have (imho) the best power armor in all Imperium space marine land, but rhinos are the worst choice for the army.

Meanwhile, Khorne Berzerkers in Rhinos really is a terrifying threat.

I was also considering death company in rhinos as well. Quite a terrifying charge especially with psyker support (BA have a "+1 attack to a unit in range" psychic power) and a chaplain, though not to the same extent as 'zerks.

It's a little disappointing that jump packs aren't as useful as they should be.

Jump packs are definitely lacking, but that's also a byproduct of what they transport, in general, being fundamentally overcosted in 8th edition.

When you look at a jump pack - it's 3 points per model for deep strike and +6" move, which is pretty solid.

 Marmatag wrote:
There is some truth to what he's saying, just not with that level of hyperbole. Alpha strikes, via deep strike, don't work on Astra gunlines.

This doesn't apply to armies, like Sisters, who can race across the field, and are equipped with anti-horde weaponry. There's a reason that in ITC rankings, Sisters are one of the highest rated armies, along with Astra Millitarum / Guard.

Saying alpha strikes work, because they work for you, is like saying Black Mambas pose 0 danger, because they are in Africa, and you are not.

This is true to some extent, but I don't see the point of it really.

Alpha strikes sometime work and sometimes don't is a statement I would agree with.

Alpha strikes never work ever because of fallback is a statement I do not agree with, because it is very badly wrong (as most overgeneralizations are).

Helldrake with 30" move.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:
Who can do 1st turn assaults?

Anyone who can deepstrike and roll 10 or higher on 2d.
There are various ways to make it more reliable but, literally, anyone who can deepstrike can 1st turn assault.

You only need 9 to reach from deepstrike.

I'm still getting used to CC being "within 1" rather than base-to-base.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Alpha strikes, via deep strike, don't work on Astra gunlines.

Depends on how it's done. IG gunlines are resistant to it, but the shock damage from a powerful alpha strike can very much lead to chewing right through to tie up important shooting units, lowering the list's overall firepower. When consolidating and choosing assault targets, you need to be clever about it.

I honestly can't wait to see what happens when Night Lords who max out their anti-LD stuff get a bunch of first turn assaults on an IG gunline.

The preview article stated that they max out at around -5, so unless you absolutely spam commissars you're going to find yourself in serious trouble if you take so much as a single unsaved wound in a squad. Can someone do some theory-hammer on that, assuming everything goes according to plan for chaos?

There's no point, commissars completely negate any impact leadership might have on a unit. You could reduce their leadership to 0 and they'd still only lose 1 guy.

 Marmatag wrote:
There's no point, commissars completely negate any impact leadership might have on a unit. You could reduce their leadership to 0 and they'd still only lose 1 guy.

Fine. Do it with SM then. Or Eldar. Or Tau.

Rapid CQC is one of the best ways to beat IG, and the faster you get in, the fewer shooting you're exposed to and the better your chances.

Sisters are excellent, of course, because we possess considerable short-range firepower and can assault over the defensive perimeter on turn 1 to catch 2 or more tanks in CQC, and assassinate any Commissars, with some degree of reliability [it's a 8" charge on Dawn of War, so save your CP].

Tyranids are a good option; by pairing Hormagaunts, Genestealers, and Trygon Primes, they can cut their way through 2 lines of Conscripts and potentially consolidate into the tanks behind them on the first turn. It's almost impossible to achieve adequate spacing, which makes me disinclined to rely on things that aren't CQC proof for heavy support. Running a Shadowsword has saved my proverbial bacon, compared to another IG player I've seen who doesn't have a Baneblade and essentially gets to curl up and die when confronted with rapid Tyranid close-quarters forces, and hope the Tyranids run afoul of the half-in-reserve rule before the IG runs out of Conscripts! [Rule of thumb, about 100 conscripts in 2 ranks provide just barely enough protection to have a just over 50/50 shot of keeping back 20 Genestealers, 30 Hormagaunts, and Trygon Prime]

I've seen Harlequins defeat an IG player by jumping Starweavers over the barricade, but they can't do that until turn 2 because Starweavers aren't as fast a Seraphim. On the other hand, Starweavers would be pretty OP if they could. However, both Starweavers and Raiders are definitely serious threats to the gunline and using them as rapid CQC options shouldn't be overlooked, especially because a Starweaver can be loaded with Fusion Pistols who can still shoot while in Melee.


Chaos Helldrakes too. With their insane move they absolutely should be taking their turn 1 to jet across the field and charge a tank if they can. Unfortunately, they're also on much larger bases than Starweavers, which may prevent them from being able to be placed in particularly tight deployments.




And really, anything that works on IG gunlines works better on Marines and Sisters tank-based lists. Tanks are all vulnerable to CQC in a big way that they never were before, and Marines and Sisters have a chronic failing to protect theirs. Marines, at least from my experience, also have a chronic failing to disperse. Placing a significant force in reserve and going second can actually be quite powerful when it comes to overcoming Marines, since the Marine player's I've faced have a chronic failure to spread out because they're all clustering up within 6" of Guilliman, and a chronic failure to protect their tanks from melee. As Sisters, I take several Immolation Flamer Immolators and anchor the ends of the line with them, to deter people from charging me out of deepstrike. While they're not going to kill off a Hormagaunt or Genestealer squad, they can make a dent in it, and push out the denial perimeter to protect the other troops that don't have flamers.