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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'm no expert on the Australian constitution. Hell, I'm no expert on anything

but it looks like their supreme court will have to sort out this mess.

Does anybody know if Queen Elizabeth and the governor general still has the 'nuclear' option?

i.e Queen Elizabeth dissolves the current government and allows the Australian people the chance to elect a new one?

And where's sebster? He'd have a lot to say about this, unless he's been unmasked as a New Zealander as well!


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 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
So if I ever became despot of a small country could I extort money from Australian politicians with the threat of making them citizens of my country?

Let's hope the North Koreans aren't reading this

Logically, you would hope thatt it's a lot more complex than that.

I think nuclear options are intent but she does take guide nice from various people.
Theres also one for use in Canada etc I believe etc.

Barnaby Joyce has many problems but being a New Zealander is not one of them.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Which begs the question, why are people with dual citizenship not able to be members of Australia's parliament?

It's pretty obvious isn't it? Conflict of interest.


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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
back in July

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/25/asia/australian-minister-canavan-resignation/index.html

An Australian cabinet minister is stepping down from his position after discovering he was made a dual Italian citizen without his knowledge.

Resources minister Matt Canavan is the third Australian politician in two weeks to fall victim to the country's little-known dual citizenship clause, after two Greens party senators resigned earlier in July.

This is what I' talking about. I refuse to believe that the Australians are so incompetent to not do background checks. These politicians must have lied about this or something.

Politicians lying is not exactly headline news, but this is turning into a shambles.

Background checks? Light ones...not exactly sure how you would run a check to see if someone is a citizen of any other country in the world. That would be impossible to do for everybody.

 Xenomancers wrote:

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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
back in July

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/25/asia/australian-minister-canavan-resignation/index.html

An Australian cabinet minister is stepping down from his position after discovering he was made a dual Italian citizen without his knowledge.

Resources minister Matt Canavan is the third Australian politician in two weeks to fall victim to the country's little-known dual citizenship clause, after two Greens party senators resigned earlier in July.

This is what I' talking about. I refuse to believe that the Australians are so incompetent to not do background checks. These politicians must have lied about this or something.

Politicians lying is not exactly headline news, but this is turning into a shambles.

Background checks? Light ones...not exactly sure how you would run a check to see if someone is a citizen of any other country in the world. That would be impossible to do for everybody.

Not everybody. But there aren't exactly very many elected officials. If you can check someone's ID for buying beer you can spend 5 minutes looking at an elected official's paperwork,

 Grey Templar wrote:

Not everybody. But there aren't exactly very many elected officials. If you can check someone's ID for buying beer you can spend 5 minutes looking at an elected official's paperwork,

How does spending 5 minutes looking at an elected official's paperwork tell you that they are an undeclared citizen of another country?

 insaniak wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Not everybody. But there aren't exactly very many elected officials. If you can check someone's ID for buying beer you can spend 5 minutes looking at an elected official's paperwork,

How does spending 5 minutes looking at an elected official's paperwork tell you that they are an undeclared citizen of another country?

Well, their passport would tell you that for starters.

Sure, they could withhold some paperwork to hide their status, but that is itself most likely a crime.

My point is that surely it shouldn't be that hard to verify if your elected officials are actually legally allowed to hold office.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Not everybody. But there aren't exactly very many elected officials. If you can check someone's ID for buying beer you can spend 5 minutes looking at an elected official's paperwork,

How does spending 5 minutes looking at an elected official's paperwork tell you that they are an undeclared citizen of another country?

Well, their passport would tell you that for starters.

Sure, they could withhold some paperwork to hide their status, but that is itself most likely a crime.

My point is that surely it shouldn't be that hard to verify if your elected officials are actually legally allowed to hold office.

I need multiple id and proof documents to get a job.
Surely this is no different.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Not everybody. But there aren't exactly very many elected officials. If you can check someone's ID for buying beer you can spend 5 minutes looking at an elected official's paperwork,

How does spending 5 minutes looking at an elected official's paperwork tell you that they are an undeclared citizen of another country?

Well, their passport would tell you that for starters.

Sure, they could withhold some paperwork to hide their status, but that is itself most likely a crime.

My point is that surely it shouldn't be that hard to verify if your elected officials are actually legally allowed to hold office.

I need multiple id and proof documents to get a job.
Surely this is no different.

And they provide those documents. The issue is, if someone has lied/is unaware that they have dual nationality, they are not going to hand you their documents for their other nationality, if they even have one.

Which then leads to the question, how do you check? There is no international database of everyone's nationality you could go and check this on. Are you going to ask every other national government whether this person is registered as one of their nationals? Especially when people lying/being unaware is typically going to be a very small number of people? It is easy for a government to check your details when those details are controlled by it. As soon as it is in the hands of another government, it is another story.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Well, their passport would tell you that for starters.

Will it?

In Barnaby Joyce's case, he's a citizen of New Zea,and because his father was. He has no paperwork that states that he is a New Zealand citizen, he just is. Unless someone had at some point in his life actually told him that having a parent from New Zealand means that he is a citizen of that country, what reason would he have had to know about it?


Similarly, one of the other pollies axed over this was born in Australia, but his Italian mother apparently had him registered as an Italian citizen when he was younger, without bothering to tell him.


Unless your hypothetical ID checkers are going to contact every country in the world to verify if a prospective office holder meets their criteria for citizenship, there's simply no way to check this.



Having said that, apparently the Australian Labor Party does at least vet prospective candidates' parents' citizenship, to at least catch potential issues arising from citizenship by descent. But that's a party policy, rather than something done by the electoral commission.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/aug/14/australias-deputy-pm-barnaby-joyce-revealed-to-be-a-new-zealander

I've never seen anything like this before in my life! Usually, when politicians are brought down it's drugs, prostitutes, stealing public funds, spying for the Soviets etc etc

but this?

Couldn't they have done background checks on this guy before he ran for office? Or was appointed Deputy PM?

They're saying it could bring down the government!

Months ago, on a similar thread, I asked if Australia was turning into a banana republic?

Australians: what's going on?

I guess getting outed as a closet sheep shagger in Straya is grade A scandal material.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'm no expert on the Australian constitution. Hell, I'm no expert on anything

but it looks like their supreme court will have to sort out this mess.

Does anybody know if Queen Elizabeth and the governor general still has the 'nuclear' option?

i.e Queen Elizabeth dissolves the current government and allows the Australian people the chance to elect a new one?

And where's sebster? He'd have a lot to say about this, unless he's been unmasked as a New Zealander as well!

Well, I've been summoned and so here goes...

The dual nationality part of the Australian constitution is... not very fitting with the modern world. It probably sounded pretty reasonable when people didn't migrate much, but these days a majority of Australians are immigrants, or at least one parent was. The issue is that people can be citizens of other countries without any knowledge or action of their own, and countries have lots of different paths to citizenship that a political candidate might be entirely unaware of.

For instance, liberal Senator Canavan is in trouble because a decade ago his Mum filled in an application for dual Italian citizenship, and included his name on it. So he didn't do anything, and wasn't aware of anything, but became a citizen of anoher country and might be ineligible for Australian citizenship. This means potentially people could be booted from parliament after they've won and taken their seats, if some clown decides to apply on their behalf to some other country somewhere. How are politicians supposed to prevent that?

Then there's One Nation Senator Roberts, he was aware of an issue with dual citizenship with England so long before the election he sent in the paperwork to remove his English citizenship - the English took months to do anything about it, so technically on the day of the election he was still an English citizen. It's a bit ridiculous for our parliament to hang on English paperwork speed.

Then there's liberal Minister Joyce. The man with the head of a half cooked donut. His dad was born in New Zealand in the 20s. This meant his Dad at that time was a British subject, but not a New Zealander. NZ hadn't got around to becoming a country yet, they were only a dominion of the Empire probably they were too busy fighting off orcs or something to write an anthem and think of a flag. By the time the citizenship laws were passed Daddy Joyce was living in Australia. Decades after all that Barnaby Joyce was born (or excreted, moulded, plucked from the tree, I'm not really sure how new Joyces are created). So Joyce becomes technically a citizen of NZ because his Dad was born there before it was even a country.

And that story gets worse, because all this came to a head when the opposition asked their colleagues in NZ to investigate Mr Joyce's position. So we're now seeing active political malice by one political party to get at members of another political party, and dragging in foreign governments along the way. This has the potential to get way stupider than it already is, and it's already dumb enough that it might cost a government their majority.

We've got ourselves potentially in a predicament where eligibility for Australian parliament is dependent on the actions of other countries.

Oh, and our highest court is the High Court, and yeah the GG and Queen could dissolve parliament. If Joyce is booted that might happen, but its pretty unlikely, lots of people are still pretty pissed about what happened last time.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, their passport would tell you that for starters.

Sure, they could withhold some paperwork to hide their status, but that is itself most likely a crime.

My point is that surely it shouldn't be that hard to verify if your elected officials are actually legally allowed to hold office.

No, this is nothing at all to do with what people have on their passports. Every single person in trouble over this has a purely Australian passport.

And no-one involved has tried to hide any foreign nationality. In each case it's been found that they technically are citizens of another country, which the parliamentarian was unaware of.

And yes, it is really hard to prove, because it isn't as simple as each country having a big list of citizens you can look up. In Joyce's case, for instance, NZ had no idea who he was and they cared even less. He wasn't registered anywhere as a NZ citizen. But under NZ if a parent was born in NZ then you are also a NZ citizen. So when some bright spark noticed where his Dad was born NZ was contacted, NZ confirmed it, and Joyce was registered as being a NZ citizen.

That's the problem.

The sad thing is that in most cases dual nationality is a boon and a blessing.

It helps unite countries and cultures. It facilitates international movement and family law proceedings.

No-one gets dual nationality cackling Bwa-ha-ha, now I can feth yr gak up.

In terms of conflict of interest, all polticians everywhere face potential conflicts of interest for a number of reasons. That's why there is a Register of Interests. You can always excuse yourself from a vote that directly divides your conflicting interests.

We've got ourselves potentially in a predicament where eligibility for Australian parliament is dependent on the actions of other countries.

Thanks for the explanation Sebster

What a mess. The Australian parliament will have to sort that out with new laws or something. But from what I've seen, and no disrespect to Australian dakka members, the Australian parliament looks as though it would struggle to organise a funeral in a graveyard.

I too was looking forward to Sebster's post on this topic.

 sebster wrote:
Then there's liberal Minister Joyce. The man with the head of a half cooked donut.

I was not disappointed.

[Although, it is worth noting; for thoroughness; that Joyce is not a Liberal Minister, he's a National. Though given the nature of 'The Coalition', the distinction is a bit hazy.]
[I also suspect Sebster knows this, and was just trying to reduce confusion for our overseas Dakkanaughts.]

Christ, you guys weren't even exaggerating

 Frazzled wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So New Zealand is a separate country? Why?

For the same reason Canada and Mexico are separate countries to the USA?

Only until the tank divisions get there...heh heh oh crap the secret is out hey look over there!


I should be clear, I thought Australia/New Zealand/Tanzania were the same overall nation. Were they settled by different countries? I thought New Zealand used Australia to train their Sarauker terror troops.

To make it even more confusing, the Australian constitution technically lists New Zealand as an Australian state, given when it was written the plan *was* for New Zealand to be a part of Australia.



Also as an update it turns out the Deputy Leader of the National Party (Fiona Nash) looks to be a Brit/Aus dual citizen. Because of course she is.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-17/fiona-nash-says-she-is-a-british-citizen-will-not-stand-aside/8817998


Honestly at this stage I'm not sure what I feel should be done - it'd be unfair for others who resigned over dual citizenship issues earlier this year if this is just ignored and business is allowed to continue as usual, but at the same time this is getting ridiculous and the fact that this is even still a thing in the modern era with how easy it is to migrate between countries is silly.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
What a mess. The Australian parliament will have to sort that out with new laws or something. But from what I've seen, and no disrespect to Australian dakka members, the Australian parliament looks as though it would struggle to organise a funeral in a graveyard.

If the High Court takes a strict stance, then I believe nothing short of a constitutional amendment will fix the issue. We don't really do constitutional amendments very well, we love saying 'no' to stuff, and this is an odd, procedural issue. I can see any attempted amendment getting buried by a populist sentiment of 'durn politicians trying to change the rules to suit themselves'.


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 Pendix wrote:
[Although, it is worth noting; for thoroughness; that Joyce is not a Liberal Minister, he's a National. Though given the nature of 'The Coalition', the distinction is a bit hazy.]
[I also suspect Sebster knows this, and was just trying to reduce confusion for our overseas Dakkanaughts.]

I find it hard enough explaining that Liberal over here refers to the conservative party...


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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
To make it even more confusing, the Australian constitution technically lists New Zealand as an Australian state, given when it was written the plan *was* for New Zealand to be a part of Australia.

Holy crap I had no idea. That's amazing.

Honestly at this stage I'm not sure what I feel should be done - it'd be unfair for others who resigned over dual citizenship issues earlier this year if this is just ignored and business is allowed to continue as usual, but at the same time this is getting ridiculous and the fact that this is even still a thing in the modern era with how easy it is to migrate between countries is silly.

There's also an issue that each parliamentarian has their own weird circumstances, meaning the High Court could be left in a position of accepting some cases and not others. They might take Roberts request to be sufficient even though the UK didn't complete it by the election, but might find Joyce's case insufficient. The political blowback from which could be severe, if the High Court's ruling impacts some parties more than others.

 Orlanth wrote:


Nevertheless this incident will be met by peals of laughter in New Zealand methinks. Maybe some Dakka Kiwi's (whoever they are) can shed more light on how its being taken

It's election year here so we only have enough column inches for the inanity that is our own political circus, we don't really have the space to fit in our crazy neighbours right now.

We love Newzealanders here and we should not be identifying Barnaby as one of their citizens. The man is a witch.
Witch
This is the same guy that wanted to have Johnny Depp dogs destroyed in a very public debate. While Depp should not be above the law I think it speaks more about the department he oversees that they arrived in the first place.

This man is a fool and the sooner he is gone the better. Having dealt with the man personally I will be glad to see him gone.

#7

https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/more-like-xenophobia?utm_term=.mqoJr4km6#.vcVqN1Q9Y


oh, hang on ...


#8

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/aug/21/liberal-mp-ann-sudmalis-lists-british-nationality-on-1966-passenger-card

Plus side, I figured out I'm also already a british citizen out if all this. So woo?

I've got dual-citizenship (Got Dutch citizenship through dad, who was a Hungarian born, Dutch citizen). I do speak and read a little of it, but I've not had to use it since I was a kid so the skills are somewhat rusty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-41772372

Australian Deputy PM Barnaby Joyce and four other politicians were wrongly elected because they held dual citizenship, a court has ruled.
The High Court of Australia decision means three of the politicians, including Mr Joyce, are disqualified from office. The others quit in July.
Australia's constitution prohibits dual citizens from being elected.
Mr Joyce's exit strips the government of its one-seat majority, but he could return through a by-election.
The deputy prime minister, who renounced New Zealand citizenship in August, has pledged to re-contest his lower house seat.
"I respect the verdict of the court," Mr Joyce said immediately after the verdict.
"We live in a marvellous democracy, with all the checks and balances they have given us all the freedoms we see. I thank the court [for] their deliberations."

more through the link.

 reds8n wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-41772372

Australian Deputy PM Barnaby Joyce and four other politicians were wrongly elected because they held dual citizenship, a court has ruled.
The High Court of Australia decision means three of the politicians, including Mr Joyce, are disqualified from office. The others quit in July.
Australia's constitution prohibits dual citizens from being elected.
Mr Joyce's exit strips the government of its one-seat majority, but he could return through a by-election.
The deputy prime minister, who renounced New Zealand citizenship in August, has pledged to re-contest his lower house seat.
"I respect the verdict of the court," Mr Joyce said immediately after the verdict.
"We live in a marvellous democracy, with all the checks and balances they have given us all the freedoms we see. I thank the court [for] their deliberations."

more through the link.

Never a dull minute in Aussie politics, but why anybody would turn their backs on New Zealand is beyond me

Because offending Australia seems more dangerous between the 2 ft spiders and killer drop bears.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Which begs the question, why are people with dual citizenship not able to be members of Australia's parliament?

Because they are not infused with australium, duh.

My favourite part is that one of the two people who wasn't found ineligible is leaving anyway to go back to state politics, Nick Xenophon.

Anyhow, the High Court seemed to take a pretty direct take on this, and that's their job, to apply the law as it is, not find a way to make it be what it should be. So that's fine.

But what happens now? Obviously all the parties going forward are going to start applying some very stringent tests to every candidate. Labor has been proudly claiming they do this already. But there's another issue that you can't test for what other countries decide to do. What happens when Italy or some other expands its citizenship laws to include more people, and that change captures a bunch of sitting parliamentarians?

We need a constitutional change, or this nonsense will happen again. But given the smug and fairly spiteful approach of most Australians to politicians, any referendum on the issue would be certain to get shot down.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


why anybody would turn their backs on New Zealand is beyond me

Citizens of Australia are afforded almost all the privileges of being citizens of New Zealand. They can live and work here indefinitely, are eligible for healthcare and welfare, and can study here. Australia doesn't extend all these privileges to New Zealanders so if you have both but only want one the smart money is on keeping the Australian one. That is until about two weeks ago. The incoming Labour government here is looking to rectify the imbalance in their first term.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Dual citizenship is a tricky thing. Different countries have different rules.

And as already demonstrated not all of them bother to inform you that you're a citizen, if they even know and care. I'd guess one of the most common ways you get informed is if you're supposed to do mandatory military service as a citizen of nations that still do that. Some nations also make an effort to allow citizens living abroad a chance to vote in national elections, which might mean they send you a notice about it. Provided they know about you and your eligibility for citizenship, that is.