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I am not young, I have an advanced degree, my family owned a retail store for more than a decade of my life.
I think separating salespeople is important. So, I am ignoring and not talking about salespeople who work in complex areas that require a lot of technical knowledge, financing etc. These statements really just cover the retail side, for example, a local gaming store. An area I call generalist sales.
I'm on the not a fan side...I also stopped needing someone to tell me what I need a long time ago. I also do my research etc. I have nothing against them, but I never EVER forget that their whole goal is to make their store (and them) more money. I also worked retail and have a grasp of being a salesman. However, the claim that finding me what I didn't realize I needed etc (upsale) actually makes me happier and in the long run brings me back is a far more nebulous idea and in the long run may or may not pan out. When the sale is happening that is not a part of their thinking, they are thinking about their goals and needs, which are to sell me more stuff so they look like a better employee. That is the bottom line. I suspect this explains why there are so many wishy washy or unmotivated salespeople etc. They simply do not have what it takes to raise a persons total by X dollars for their own gain and possibly that person's detriment. Talking someone into spending more money than they intended is not in that customer's best interest, it is in the store's or saleperson's.
I personally will never be convinced any upsale etc isn't based on self-interest.
I don't mind a greeting. I don't mind asking what I'm looking for. I do not want to be followed around. I do not want to be asked more than once if I need X.
I will also point out I agree with the US game store seeming to be a very different place than maybe England. My local store has 3-4 tables going continuously even if all the people are doing is talking.
(edit for clarity and my poor typing skills)
(As a note, guys, both of you post tons of stuff I find enlightnening and enjoyable, but from the neutral outside, it is clear one of you is being defensive, and one has a bias against. Arguing here isn't doing any good and has lost the point of the thread I think.)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/20 21:12:44
Keeping the hobby side alive!
I never forget the Dakka unit scale is binary: Units are either OP or Garbage.
Slipspace wrote: I've got no problem with someone trying to sell me something in a shop. What I have a problem with is tone-deaf sales people who go through some pre-determined spiel with every single customer regardless of the purpose of their visit.
This is where most GW employees fail, IMO. I get that their job is to sell but, as others have pointed out, they're generally not very good at it. It's such a universal constant of GW stores that I'm forced to conclude it's actually a corporate culture thing and not just me being unlucky.
The thing is GW just doesn't attract good salespeople - If you're good at making sales, you'll have a much better job making much better money elsewhere, likely on a direct comission.
GW doesn't pay that well, there's minimal job growth or anything to put on a CV for the money being paid. Their staff base is almost exclusively from their customer base, which isn't well known for it's inter-personal skills.
I have no personnal experience in retailing or selling anyhow but i can remember very well the tales of the good ol'day from my granny. She kept telling me that one of the most important thing was to pretend to be interested in their lives in do your best to have them feel like they are smarter than you. She explained it made them feel at ease and would make them easier to upsell, pretending you want to provide them with what they actually need even though you most of the time won't give a damn.
My granny even dared to discuss politics in a quire special manner, that's saying she would steer the customer into politics abd then let him give a speech while passionatly agreeing with everything he says.
My granny worked in a garage, but as extremly hypocrite as her methods were, she swears it was extremely effective. So when a shop assistant tends to behave this way or to be a bit invasive i tend to ignore it and not piss of the dude, who sometimes, probably is not much more delighted in what he's doing.
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
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Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
Me? I'm a soft target for my local GW, as the manager used to be my Boss. He knows how I tick, and how to juice that little bit extra out of me.
But he doesn't apply that to every customer. The regulars get their own custom patter. Newcomers get the broader strokes to be refined at a later date.
Now for an example of what I consider to be poor salesmanship and poor customer services.
Bought my shiny 3D Telly around 6 years ago (yikes...should probably start thinking replacement...). See, I'd come into a bit of cash, and was kitting out my flat. So on my lunch break I wandered off to the electrical shop to see what's what. I knew I wanted an HD3dTV, because I did.
Not one salesperson approached me. None even acknowledged my presence in the store. Well, one did. But all I got was 'tcoch, I'm on my lunch'. The only other staff member I could see was busy trying to sell a baffled looking elderly couple a gold plated HDMI cable....
So despite finding the very dab, and being more than willing to buy it right there and then, I left with no sale for them. Wound up getting it off Amazon for about £200 cheaper.
That to me is what costs people sales. Don't ignore me. Acknowledge me. If you're busy, it doesn't take long to say 'someone will be with you soon'.
And that acknowledgement is important. It's proven to reduce shop lifting (they know you know they're in the store), and it's just friendly. A simple 'hiya, you alright there'. It's an open greeting. Invites answers anywhere from 'yeah ta' to 'actually, I'm hoping you can help'.
As Azreal says, the trick is knowing to actively listen. Don't just blunder past their response into the sales pitch. Chat to them a bit (but DO NOT chat up women. Be careful there). Get your cues before you even launch into the sales patter. If they're monosyllabic to your 'shooting the breeze', just leave them to it. Even a cheery 'cool, well I'll you be. If you want any help just give me a shout'. It's simple. But seemingly fairly difficult.
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Yeah, as much as I hate being sold at, I hate being ignored even more.
Once I've made my decision to ask about something or buy it, and I'm looking around for a staff member, they should be keen to jump at the opportunity. The normally have until I get bored of waiting (maybe 1 or 2 minutes) before I wander off with my cash in my pocket.
As you said, even a basic "Good morning, let me know if you need anything" goes a long way.
Me? I'm a soft target for my local GW, as the manager used to be my Boss. He knows how I tick, and how to juice that little bit extra out of me.
I just don't get this. If I'm in for some paints or a box of models it doesn't matter what patter you have, I'm not buying a Codex or another box of models.
So despite finding the very dab, and being more than willing to buy it right there and then, I left with no sale for them. Wound up getting it off Amazon for about £200 cheaper.
Sounds like they did you a favour then.
I agree being ignored is a huge no-no in any sales position but I question the common sense of anyone who's willing to pay £200 more for the same item if a sales person approaches them. What could they have possibly said that would be worth being an extra £200 out of pocket?
At that point, I hadn't settled on a make or model. Given I was using their showroom, would've been rude to just use it for research, had they actually shown the slightest interest.
That it was so much cheaper on Amazon was just a bonus really.
As for the patter bit (the first quote) that's just me, baby. I can be fairly scatter brained, so easily forget I need glue/brush/paint. But also, there's times when I just really want to build a new kit, something not part of my current army projects.
Last example? The Deathwatch flyer. Gorgeous looking piece, and I'd been hankering to build one for a while. So I took the plunge. It's now 50% painted.
All sorts of different customers out there
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Spinning off from the 'Worst Games Store' thing, and reflecting on criticism of the GW approach, I'd like to have a chat about why sales people sell you stuff.
Now first, I'd like to confirm there are good and bad sales people. The same goes for sales practices. Now where that line lies is massively subjective, so please don't think I'm singing the gospel here. Just giving my insights as a three time GW Till Monkey (don't worry, I've got a proper career now).
First up, the sales pitch. Man, that can be tricky, in theory, it's something you need to constantly adapt to the customer. The patter that works on Bob, might put Bill's back up. Whilst you might be able to pull back from the brink with Bill, Barry might simply choose to leave and shop elsewhere. And there's a knack to doing it well. Sadly not everyone can make it seem natural.
So why are they doing it? Well....it's a shop. It's their job to sell you stuff. From the GW 10 Commandments circa 2010? Tell the customer what they need, but sell them what they want. See the difference there?
Now if the salesman is doing their job at least half competently, they won't just launch into 'ZOMG NEW STUFFS YOU BUY IS NEW!'. Rather the trick is to build a rapport with you. Not 'let's go down the pub together' or anything. More just getting to know you as a Gamer. Which army are you doing? What's your current project? Are you a painter? Do you do Tournaments? That sort of stuff. Little nuggets of info which can help inform my product recommendation.
If you're a NooB, it's hand holding all the way. Helping you figure out your way of collecting your army. If you're a hoary old vet, it's getting you to tell me what you're looking for and why.
Why yes, it is easier said than done. But that's the sales person's job. To sell you stuff (recurring theme, innit).
From there, I'll push off to either serve someone else, or leave you be as the conversation dictates.
But when you come to the Till? Damn right I'm going to try to upsell. From the low key 'you ok for glues and paints', to the 'you know what might go well with that', even the classic 'White Dwarf, sir?'.
Why the upselling? Simples. It's cost effective. Done on every sale, you can add a surprising amount to your bottom line in a year.
Now of course, you can't and won't upsell to everyone. It's a nice idea, but it's just not gonna happen. But if 50% of customers buy, on average, two paint pots each? (we've all done it. We've all been thinking 'no, I'm good...oh, actually.....') Well, let's play with some numbers, shall we?
For demo purposes I always work with nice, round numbers. So let's say that averaged out over the year, I do 100 transactions, big and small, in a week. If I can average just a single pot of paint per transaction, what does that look like over a year?
Well, GW retail price is £2.55 per pot. In a week, that's a potential £255 in the Till. Over a year? £13,260.00. That's not small change - even though each pot is, in relative terms, small change. To a GW store, that extra pot per customer is the difference between hitting and missing your monthly target. For a FLGS - in all seriousness it could be the difference between the store being a viable business, or the somewhat less melodramatic 'owner can actually afford a vacation this year!'.
And that's why it's done. Now I know it's not for everyone. And this isn't me doing a Geldof and telling you give them your munneh. At the end of the day it's your money to spend or not as you damned well see fit.
But hopefully I've shone enough of a light on the why's and wherefores for you to not take umbrage at the poor sod doing their job
All comment and criticism welcome. Just, don't ask me what the other 9 Commandments are. That was 7 years ago (nearly to the day now I think about it) so they're long relegated to the 'no longer relevant, delete whenevs' bucket in my brain
Pushy salesmen are the reason I buy almost all my stuff online. I'd generally rather buy from GW's terribly designed online store than step into a brick and mortar GW, with a few exceptions. The FLGS I've frequented haven't hovered behind my shoulder trying to pry into my personal life so they can suggest I buy more space marines. The only other place I get that from is a car lot, and I hate them equally. It is my dearest hope that Tesla kills that entire scumbag industry, and I look forward to the day I can just buy my car on amazon.com.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/23 05:22:36
This thread is hilarious. For context, I have about 20 years worth of commissioned retail sales experience from both the salesperson and sales manager stances. Thankfully, I'm currently out of retail and working as a financial industry project manager.
I get a huge kick out of the people who leave product on the counter and then storm out when someone tries to up sell them. "You need me more than I need you." Well... not really. I need a certain number of sales dollars per week/month/year. It's extremely likely that YOUR dollars will neither make nor break a business. Realistically speaking, what happens is that the sales people have a good laugh with whatever other customers are present at your expense. Temper tantrums on adults rarely look good, but they almost always look hilarious.
I'm not going to comment on sales techniques. What makes for a good salesperson hasn't really changed over the last hundred years. There are plenty of books out there. Building a rapport is generally a good thing. Some customers are miserable gits who walk into the shop with a chip on there shoulders and have no interest in talking to "the help". You can't make everyone happy all the time.
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My impression is that aggressive sales and performance targets in places like GW pressurises staff which is why you get the ham-fisted approach to hard selling that many have experienced. This is common across retail, though I have to say of all the shops I tend to frequent, none are like GW. You don't get that 'attention' in Forbidden Planet or Waterstones. Independent game and hobby stores are mostly relaxed, some are friendlier than others but just asking 'anything I can help you with today?' and leaving it at that hasn't made them go bust in 20 years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/23 16:48:42
Kriswall wrote: This thread is hilarious. For context, I have about 20 years worth of commissioned retail sales experience from both the salesperson and sales manager stances. Thankfully, I'm currently out of retail and working as a financial industry project manager.
I get a huge kick out of the people who leave product on the counter and then storm out when someone tries to up sell them. "You need me more than I need you." Well... not really. I need a certain number of sales dollars per week/month/year. It's extremely likely that YOUR dollars will neither make nor break a business. Realistically speaking, what happens is that the sales people have a good laugh with whatever other customers are present at your expense. Temper tantrums on adults rarely look good, but they almost always look hilarious.
I'm not going to comment on sales techniques. What makes for a good salesperson hasn't really changed over the last hundred years. There are plenty of books out there. Building a rapport is generally a good thing. Some customers are miserable gits who walk into the shop with a chip on there shoulders and have no interest in talking to "the help". You can't make everyone happy all the time.
You make the assumption that a person will throw a temper tantrum and storm out. That's very likely never the case. If you're pushy, I'm simply leaving the store. I'm not going to shout at you or throw stuff - you're just losing business.
Howard A Treesong wrote: My impression is that aggressive sales and performance targets in places like GW pressurises staff which is why you get the ham-fisted approach to hard selling that many have experienced. This is common across retail, though I have to say of all the shops I tend to frequent, none are like GW. You don't get that 'attention' in Forbidden Planet or Waterstones. Independent game and hobby stores are mostly relaxed, some are friendlier than others but just asking 'anything I can help you with today?' and leaving it at that hasn't made them go bust in 20 years.
Having had the training, I disagree that the intent is for aggressive sales, and I never felt particularly pressured to hit the sales target when I worked for GW.
Granted I was just a Till Monkey, barring four months as a trainee manager (a course I failed, fact fans!), so by no means am I claiming you're outright wrong - just that my experience doesn't match your description.
There's no point chasing the big sale every time, that's just not gonna work. But as I mentioned in my original post trying up the Average Transaction Value by just a pot of paint on each sale can pay surprising dividends for your bottom line.
If you had a duff week, you looked at what the takings were, and what was left to hit target. Simply being mindful of that I found was enough. Of particular interest (well, I think so), was the first day I was left in charge as the Part Time Performance Chimp. It was when the Tyranids came out, and nobody had seen a preview Codex due to a printers error (2009 if memory serves. May have been early 2010?). We weren't terribly far off monthly target, needing to make £3,000ish over the weekend. This was a big release, what with the Tervigon and other shiny new plastic kits (Raveners for sure, can't properly recall the others). And we kept an eye on the takings over the day. It didn't make us hard sell, but kept us on our toes regarding small upsales, and that target was indeed in reach.
Lo and behold, we hit target for the first time in ages. Smiles all round. And largely because we reminded people the new White Dwarf was out, promoted web orders (we sold out of Nid stuff, so that was the 'next best thing', effectively striking whilst the iron was not). And of course when we're selling peeps their new army or bits for an existing army, remembering to get them to think if they had all the paints they needed. Most of the time, they'd nab a pot or two, usually the main base colours or wash - after all, they'd be needing them at some point, so might as well get it now.
Easy peasy.
Shortly after that, the new 10 Commandments and 'self training' came out. That was the same fateful week I wound up running the Epsom store (absolutely the making of me, even though I now work in a completely unrelated industry. But that's another thread entirely). Epsom sadly hadn't been performing. So off I go, keys in and hand on a 'a least someone is opening the store' basis. First week wasn't great. Store was quiet, few visitors. So I came up with scenario based games for each system, and dug out the customer directory thing - essentially historical records of people that'd signed up to previous events. That done, on the phone, letting people know not that there was a new Sherriff in town (temporary posting until permanent staff were found), just saying 'hey there's a big game I've planned, come on down if you can make it'. It worked. It bloody well worked. That weekend, I outperformed every other store in the region barring Bluewater. Those events got people in store, and excited for the Hobby again. The sales continued to increase across the averages. Other weekends weren't as mega, but I was taking more across the entire week - which is no small thing.
In the space of the four weeks I ran Epsom (as a Blueshirt Mook), I turned it round from bottom of the area to near the top. No hard sales involved. No 'have I only asked you about White Dwarf the three times?'. Just appealing to my customer's interests and passion for the Hobby. No, it didn't work on everyone, and perhaps I could've backed off the odd one or two here and there. But it works. The proof is in the pudding.
But, to reiterate. This thread is not 'agree me or Worse Than Hitler'. It's just about giving my own unique perspective on why sales persons in Nerd shops do what they do, for better or for worse
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The simplest up-sell has always been the most effective: "You want fries with that?"
In a GW store, you can expect them to be gaming nerds, but the same could be said for any FLGS - run by gaming nerds for gaming nerds. They can't do the hard sell well, but the simple up-sell - "You good for paints/glue/whatever?" before ringing up the till is both effective and can be legitimately helpful, because people are genuinely forgetful about small stuff when buying larger stuff.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Having had the training, I disagree that the intent is for aggressive sales, and I never felt particularly pressured to hit the sales target when I worked for GW.
I used to work at Buckle store part-time for extra money. I know what it's like needing Commission like they do at a GW stores (which is my understanding). They really, REALLY pushed us for aggressive sales. They wanted ONE type of salesperson.
The sales associate that would ask what they're looking for, the customer shrugs and says "I am looking around, trying to decide" and the associate immediately starts dragging product at them. If the customer didn't leave, they'd eventually try something on- a shirt, a pair of jeans... it didn't help that while they were in the changing room, the associate was hurling MORE product at them- trying to sell them the entire outfit. That's what we were supposed to do.
It never worked. Ever.
God-Emperor help you if you're not slinging everything in an outfit from a hat to some underwear and a wallet at the customer that just liked one of the OBEY T-Shirts because he liked They Live. They'd be all over you, and no amount of explaining that "The overwhelming majority of people within our target age bracket makes less than $10.00 an hour in this town" would work, you were expected to convince some guy that was struggling to make a car note and rent that he needed a $300.00 outfit. Nevermind the fact that if you were pushy like this, people started talking- the town literally had 2 or 3 social venues and word got around and people would avoid your store like it was made of cancer and Hitler penis.
The two guys that have worked at our local GW, and it seems like every GW- they push. I understand that they want to show you new product- but if someone says, "I don't play Age of Sigmar, I prefer 40k" that is not the time to convince me I need to play Age of Sigmar because you have some starter set. I do not care. I do not want Hot Air Balloon Fat Midgets or Pissed Off Tree Hippies. What's worse is when I actually say flat-out, "I'm here to grab a Deathwatch Battleforce", or "I just need to get another group of Scions to finish out my list for next weekend"- they're trying to sell me Land Raiders, Water Pots, Project Boxes, and pretty much everything but what I'm asking for. I could deal with them saying, "Oh, Deathwatch? What's your list like? You could probably stand to throw a couple more Vanguard Veterans in there, and the box comes with a lot of stuff to fill in the gaps with your veterans so you're not just getting it for a couple of dudes in your Kill-Team".
What I'm getting at is that it's never a sensible segue into another product, it's "Hey do you want to spend another fething hundred and fifty bucks on an impulse, you slobbering idiot with money to burn by the pile?" No, I do not. The average person coming in to spend a hundred bucks is not going to be convinced to spend twice what he planned on some stuff that he wasn't deliberately after. And he's damned sure not going to buy one expensive box of models and say, "You know, screw it- while I'm hurling out enough money to feed a family for a week I might as well just spend TWICE that for a game I had no interest in at all".
They're terrible at reading people, and it comes off as them just trying to push the most expensive things possible at you. And as I've said before, the worst thing is that they do it while you're playing at their tables, after every turn. No, I do not want another Land Raider. Especially since mine got reduced to a smoldering crater in turn 1.
Very possibly geographic differences within GW, but as a U.K. Till Monkey, I didn't get commission
If things went well, there was a relatively (as such things go) annual bonus if the store hit target, but no sale by sale commission.
I've honesty no idea if that's part of US Till Monkey contract - but if it is, it could well explain why there seems to be such disparate attitudes on either side of the Atlantic?
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Bad sales people are a plague. They can and do actively drive customers away. Good salespeople figure out what the customer wants / needs / can afford and try to find him something that ticks all those boxes. (if anyone is interested I both design and sell 6-7 figure data center IT stuff)
Great example of getting this wrong I witnessed in GW.
Stuck in London killing time before a flight.
Colleague/friend has been asking me about getting started with 40K so I drag him in for the demo game which he enjoys.
Red shirt, without asking him any qualifying questions then pushed the dark vengeance starter set plus paint set and was turned down.
If he'd bothered to ask a few questions he could have found out that he was introduced to the game via a friend that's been playing for years and has everything he'd possibly need to start, that he already had a mini rule book and that he'd been looking at Tyranids.
With those answers in hand he could probably have sold a tyranid start collecting box, a codex and some associated bits.
Because he didn't qualify the sale he suggested something that the (potential) customer didn't want and all that does is turn people off.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/23 19:56:24
Honestly, I think people notice bad sales people because the whole point of being a good sales person is that people don't actually notice the patter...
And again, for clarity - This Thread Is Not 'GW's Sales Training Is Infallible Therefore You Are The Problem'. At all. Not even close. It's just my take having been on both sides of border.
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Kriswall wrote: This thread is hilarious. For context, I have about 20 years worth of commissioned retail sales experience from both the salesperson and sales manager stances. Thankfully, I'm currently out of retail and working as a financial industry project manager.
I get a huge kick out of the people who leave product on the counter and then storm out when someone tries to up sell them. "You need me more than I need you." Well... not really. I need a certain number of sales dollars per week/month/year. It's extremely likely that YOUR dollars will neither make nor break a business. Realistically speaking, what happens is that the sales people have a good laugh with whatever other customers are present at your expense. Temper tantrums on adults rarely look good, but they almost always look hilarious.
I'm not going to comment on sales techniques. What makes for a good salesperson hasn't really changed over the last hundred years. There are plenty of books out there. Building a rapport is generally a good thing. Some customers are miserable gits who walk into the shop with a chip on there shoulders and have no interest in talking to "the help". You can't make everyone happy all the time.
At work, I like working with professional salesmen. I call up my forklift shop, tell them what zoomboom we're using and whats wrong with it, and they mail me a quote with all the parts I need. Boom. Done. I wanted their expert service help, and they gave it to me. Good relationship, good service! Same thing if I call Platt and ask for help finding a transformer because SquareD's website is more pain than I have time to deal with.
What I don't want is some guy pretending to be my friend while he tries to sell me stuff I don't want or need, just to pad his bottom line. My tire shop doesn't try to sell me a second set of forklift tires when I call them for a replacement 4, they just hook me up with what I need.
Hey! Sales is about building relationships in my opinion. The vast majority of new customers come from existing ones. Friends are the best marketing, and all they cost is you is having some passion for your customers' needs and helping them find what they truly want. No one is an island, they are instead an entire network of friends and family and people listen to recommendations of friends and family like no other.
So instead of looking at it from the point of view I gotta sell this item, find out how you can give the customer the best ROI for their money and time.
For example maybe somebody comes in for new vacuum cleaner. Well let's find out why they need a new vacuum cleaner after building some rapport first of course. Well it turns out they buy a new one every month because they have to constantly vacuum, so instead of a new vacuum what they really need is an upgrade to their windows so less dust gets in and because you found that out they upgrade their windows and only have to buy one vacuum a year. Saving them tons of money.
That's a bit of a hyperbole example above but I think you catch my drift. Find out what your customer really needs, and make the best recommendation based on that. Ask questions and listen more than you make suggestions.
You may not make a sale right there and then but I'm willing to bet the return on that kind of relationship building will be far greater than any single sell.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and lastly if somebody doesn't want to talk to you don't try to force them too. That's tacky and amateurish. Not properly qualifying the customer leads to a waste of your time and even worse a waste of theirs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/31 20:19:10
DrNo172000 wrote: Hey! Sales is about building relationships in my opinion. The vast majority of new customers come from existing ones. Friends are the best marketing, and all they cost is you is having some passion for your customers' needs and helping them find what they truly want. No one is an island, they are instead an entire network of friends and family and people listen to recommendations of friends and family like no other.
So instead of looking at it from the point of view I gotta sell this item, find out how you can give the customer the best ROI for their money and time.
For example maybe somebody comes in for new vacuum cleaner. Well let's find out why they need a new vacuum cleaner after building some rapport first of course. Well it turns out they buy a new one every month because they have to constantly vacuum, so instead of a new vacuum what they really need is an upgrade to their windows so less dust gets in and because you found that out they upgrade their windows and only have to buy one vacuum a year. Saving them tons of money.
That's a bit of a hyperbole example above but I think you catch my drift. Find out what your customer really needs, and make the best recommendation based on that. Ask questions and listen more than you make suggestions.
You may not make a sale right there and then but I'm willing to bet the return on that kind of relationship building will be far greater than any single sell.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and lastly if somebody doesn't want to talk to you don't try to force them too. That's tacky and amateurish. Not properly qualifying the customer leads to a waste of your time and even worse a waste of theirs.
See, I don't consider toy models to be in the same category as technical equipment requiring complicated knowledge and support. When I walk the toy aisle at Target looking for something to take home to my toddler, the clerks don't come sprinting over to try and push legos on me. In fact, if I don't hunt one down, I'll never even see them. As a result, my shopping experience at target is enjoyable and I'm more likely to return.
You know what I'd when I walk into a GW? A smile and a "Welcome to Games Workshop! Let me know if you need any help!" That would keep me coming back to the store.
Comments along the lines of: 'If someone tries the hard sell on me I walk out and don't come back' leave me a little . . . perplexed?
I fully accept this can be annoying. But, presumably, you are in the store either because you need a product or would like to browse because there may potentially be something you want?
So why would you leave and not just say: 'Thanks but I'm browsing/just picking up a box of X'?
If they continue to push you follow up with: 'Listen, I know you are only doing your job but I'm just buying this/just browsing. If I need help I will come and find you. Thanks.'
Do sales people really carry on after that? Again, maybe it depends where you live in the world. I've never had a problem with pushy sales people that required anything more than a polite rebuttal and a firm smile.
My best success as salesman? Selling a gentleman an Xbox and then, when he lamented the fact that he wouldn't be able to play PS2 exclusive titles, noting 'Well, you could always buy a PS2 as well'.
I still can't believe that he actually did, but it just goes to show that it is worth offering a few add ons because some people just need a little nudge to spend quite lot more money.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 13:33:18
DrNo172000 wrote: Hey! Sales is about building relationships in my opinion. The vast majority of new customers come from existing ones. Friends are the best marketing, and all they cost is you is having some passion for your customers' needs and helping them find what they truly want. No one is an island, they are instead an entire network of friends and family and people listen to recommendations of friends and family like no other.
So instead of looking at it from the point of view I gotta sell this item, find out how you can give the customer the best ROI for their money and time.
For example maybe somebody comes in for new vacuum cleaner. Well let's find out why they need a new vacuum cleaner after building some rapport first of course. Well it turns out they buy a new one every month because they have to constantly vacuum, so instead of a new vacuum what they really need is an upgrade to their windows so less dust gets in and because you found that out they upgrade their windows and only have to buy one vacuum a year. Saving them tons of money.
That's a bit of a hyperbole example above but I think you catch my drift. Find out what your customer really needs, and make the best recommendation based on that. Ask questions and listen more than you make suggestions.
You may not make a sale right there and then but I'm willing to bet the return on that kind of relationship building will be far greater than any single sell.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and lastly if somebody doesn't want to talk to you don't try to force them too. That's tacky and amateurish. Not properly qualifying the customer leads to a waste of your time and even worse a waste of theirs.
See, I don't consider toy models to be in the same category as technical equipment requiring complicated knowledge and support. When I walk the toy aisle at Target looking for something to take home to my toddler, the clerks don't come sprinting over to try and push legos on me. In fact, if I don't hunt one down, I'll never even see them. As a result, my shopping experience at target is enjoyable and I'm more likely to return.
You know what I'd when I walk into a GW? A smile and a "Welcome to Games Workshop! Let me know if you need any help!" That would keep me coming back to the store.
Hey so I use to be the sales manager at a games store, not everyone knows what they want. I'll give you example, I had some gentleman come in and I sparked up a conversation with them. They mentioned that the only game they had played was Catan and they were looking for a new one. Now I could just have sold them a Catan expansion or a Catan clone. Instead I found out what they really liked about Catan. It wasn't the mechanics per se, it was that it was a simple game that didn't take too long for them to play with their whole group. So I recommended Machi Koro to them instead. They came in a week later and the only thing I said this time around was "How did you like Machi Koro", because I remembered who they were. They responded they loved it and they had come back to get a Machi Koro expansion. At that point they didn't need me to make a recommendation.
Don't be under the impression that everyone who walks into a games store knows what they want. I've had families who had no idea what they are looking at and I've had long time gamer not know what they want. Now the percentage of people who know what they want might be higher at a GW store due to it specializing in one thing but I can't say for sure. But really there's nothing worse than buying a 50 dollar board game you end up hating or going all in on a faction in a mini you end up hating. My goals was to help people prevent that, if I could make a recommendation at that person came back and said they loved it. Well that was a bigger win for me than a one time transaction.
Also small stores can't really afford a high bounce rate, shopping at an LGS really isn't the same as shopping at target so I don't think that is a good comparison. The business models are completely different.
Lastly it seems like you've had lots of bad experiences with pushy people, please correct me if I'm wrong. Understand that well trained sales staff don't do those things. If it was the first time I saw you come into the store, what I would do is find out who you are and maybe spark up some small talk. In that small tiny window I would figure out if you needed a recommendation or not without even directly asking if you did. From then on I would say "Hi <insert name> glad to see you back, if you need anything please let me know". I never for instance tried to make recommendations to the regulars, I'd have small talk with the ones I knew where talkative but unless they specifically asked for my advice I knew that they knew enough of what they wanted. Now in the rare occasion someone new did make a straight b-line to a product and had that I know what I want look on their face, yeah I'd probably even save the small talk. Maybe just find out who they were at the register. Remember I said sales is about relationship building, not convincing someone to buy something they don't want. Now is it hard to establish that kind of sales team in a LGS without really strong leadership. Yes it is due to pay rates, but it's not impossible to have a passionate team of go getters at small business prices.
At the end of the day that approach is in my experience and honest opinion going to help keep a LGS afloat a lot more than the just saying hi to everyone that walks in the door and leaving it at that. Even if that approach cost a customer or two, who just hate being spoken too (which I understand, I actually don't like to be sold to either). Of course areas may vary and so mileage may vary. That's part of understanding your market though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 16:12:16
Denny wrote: Comments along the lines of: 'If someone tries the hard sell on me I walk out and don't come back' leave me a little . . . perplexed?
I fully accept this can be annoying. But, presumably, you are in the store either because you need a product or would like to browse because there may potentially be something you want?
So why would you leave and not just say: 'Thanks but I'm browsing/just picking up a box of X'?
If they continue to push you follow up with: 'Listen, I know you are only doing your job but I'm just buying this/just browsing. If I need help I will come and find you. Thanks.'
Do sales people really carry on after that? Again, maybe it depends where you live in the world. I've never had a problem with pushy sales people that required anything more than a polite rebuttal and a firm smile.
My best success as salesman? Selling a gentleman an Xbox and then, when he lamented the fact that he wouldn't be able to play PS2 exclusive titles, noting 'Well, you could always buy a PS2 as well'.
I still can't believe that he actually did, but it just goes to show that it is worth offering a few add ons because some people just need a little nudge to spend quite lot more money.
You have one chance to make a good first impression.
One.
Waste it by pressuring me?
You just made a sale for somebody online - where I do not need to put up with your crap.
A good salesman helps me find what I want, not what he wants to sell me.
His asking questions is fine - more than fine, that is how he finds out what I want. It means that he is doing the job.
Starting off with pressuring me to buy The New Shiny is talking to my back as I leave the store.
Then again, the odds of my going into a GW store are pretty slim - in part because of past experience, and in part because there is very little that GW has these days that even remotely interests me.
40K? I sold my army.
Age of ? See the above mentioned 'One chance to make a good first impression'. The first impression they gave me for AoS is that I would rather read a book. And not even a good book.
I am looking forward to Necromunda - it may well be my first 'new' GW game in almost a decade.
So, they get another chance. Maybe. If I don't avoid the trouble and order online because I do not want to deal with a GW salesmonkey. (Which, to be fair, is my being unfair to the local store - but experience with other GW sales people has left me gun shy.)
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anyone walking into a Games Store is likely to be there to spend some money.
Not true at all in the US. In-store gaming is a regular thing, and there are lots of times when I'll be in on X-Wing night just to play some games and have no interest in buying anything because I've already bought all I need. Trying persistently to sell me something is just going to make it more likely that I get annoyed and take my money elsewhere when the next wave is released and I buy a bunch of stuff all at once. But I don't know, maybe this is different in the UK because non-store gaming clubs are more common and there's less reason to go into a store at all if you aren't there to buy something.
Didn't used to be true in the UK either, even with multiple clubs in my home town there were a fair amount of us hanging about in the GW store evenings & weekends, and even during the day on a school day there would be a few older people sitting painting & chatting with the staff when us wee grots skived off school. It's only been the last ten years or so that GW's "hobby centres" have turned into hard-sell hellpits where the staff only feign interest in talking to you for however long it takes them to figure out you're not actually going to buy more than the one novel or whatever you came in for. In the end that's GW's fault not the staff's - GW hire people to sell first & foremost, GW set their KPIs and demand staff meet them, GW continue to dishonestly present their stores as something more than pure retail outlets while insisting staff operate them like pure retail outlets - but it doesn't make the staff's behaviour any less annoying.
One of the main reasons I shop almost entirely online now is so I don't have to deal with the ever more strident palsies of the dying retail-sales business model.
EDIT: Also, I remain unconvinced "hard sell" or even "building relationships" are actually super-effective techniques rather than mere placebos elevated to dogma by middle-management idiots desperate to justify their own existence by claiming to have the One True Path of Salesmanship. When I worked retail and retail management, the store I was in had the full gamut of staff - Disinterested Surly Part-timer Student all the way through to Super-Smarmy Psychology Graduate. Smarmy Graduate guy had the full-on sales patter going constantly, insisting he could categorise customers and tailor his approach for maximum effect, he was a full-on devotee of the "salesmanship" school of thinking. Now, he certainly got more sales than Surly Student, who did less than nothing but was related to the Regional Manager and so was untouchable, but myself and most other members of staff took a much more relaxed and non-invasive approach(pretty much - greeting, ask if they need a hand, if they say "no thanks" inform them to come over if they do have any questions and then leave them completely alone) and the fact is if you'd looked at our stats for sales, upsells and so on you'd not have been able to tell any difference.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/02 07:56:19
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Then again, the odds of my going into a GW store are pretty slim - in part because of past experience, and in part because there is very little that GW has these days that even remotely interests me.
40K? I sold my army.
I have the opposite problems with GW stores - if I'm buying then I'm probably buying 2-3K points. Between keeping the in-store stock to a minimum and the stuff that's now web only they usually don't have what I want.
Slipspace wrote: I've got no problem with someone trying to sell me something in a shop. What I have a problem with is tone-deaf sales people who go through some pre-determined spiel with every single customer regardless of the purpose of their visit.
This is where most GW employees fail, IMO. I get that their job is to sell but, as others have pointed out, they're generally not very good at it. It's such a universal constant of GW stores that I'm forced to conclude it's actually a corporate culture thing and not just me being unlucky.
In the UK there's a video game chain called Game who are very similar. They will go through a corporate script with every customer to the point where it feels like they're not even paying attention to you. I used to work in retail and I know for a fact that's the worst way to sell but it's the easiest way to train a bunch of minimum wage part-timers, which is why it's so common.
It's usually something determined at the highest levels of management by people who have lost touch with their own employees.
When I was working at Borders, we were allowed to sell how we wanted, and my store was considered one of the best in the region, to the point that we were asked to train the staffs at other stores. Then a new CEO came in and we were forced to read from a script, and naturally our numbers tanked. My favorite example of this is when we were given a script to upsell cards on Mother's Day and the store manager was ordered to stand at the register to make sure every employee said the script at every transaction. The first customer who walked up to mine had a couple of magazines about...well, the pictorial spread was titled "The Sarge and his Privates"... and I had to start with the line, "Have you thought of your mother today?"
To be fair, the manager was as horrified as the rest of us.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/02 16:55:24
I have never worked in retail or customer service, but I have a number of friends who do (and still do) and I've been on the receiving end of pushy salesmen.
The one and only thing a good salesman needs is the ability to gauge their customer. No matter what kind of item you're selling, no matter what type of store or location, never assume anything about the customer. Until you've gotten a little more out of him, you'll never know if he's just there to window shop because he can't spend the money, just there to check out products and come back for a later purchase, gonna buy a few things on impulse, have absolutely no clue what he wants, have everything he wants written down on a neatly itemized list, have a budget, or is willing to blow every cent he has in his pocket on the spot. You'll also never know if he's gonna be a returning customer.
Building up a rapport is important, but knowing when to stop is too. The greatest salesmen I've seen can basically tell your intentions, your budget, and what tickles your fancy within minutes of your first sentence. It sounds impossible but it isn't. This doesn't mean act aloof, nor does it mean stalking them until you gathered all of the info. Yes, I encountered the "Stalker" type once. He scared a literal bus-load of chinese tourists to the point that one of the girls thought she was going to be sexually harassed by the guy. I had to do some damage control as my friend was their tour guide and asked me for some place they might like to visit (they were anime geeks). Meanwhile his wife always manages to sell me something simply because she's proactive in getting to know me, but also knows when to stop and leave me to just browse the items (and often goes on tangents about whatever geekitry I'm looking at).
The only universal thing I can say is that you should never, ever look desperate. Went to a car dealership once and the guy was ready to sell me a car right there on the spot. Everything prepped, lined up, I just needed to sign a piece of paper. Convenient, but made me feel like he just wanted my money asap. Didn't help that he started dumping tons of info brochures and all of his contact (including his personal home number. wtf) when I started to leave.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
? See the above mentioned 'One chance to make a good first impression'. The first impression they gave me for 
