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sossen wrote:
The firepower is deceptively high.

The firepower is good... if you want to take out elite models and characters. They're assassins, they are supposed to have the firepower to kill a Warlord, psyker, elite unit, etc. they can't deal with large units.

As is the survivability.

Their survivability is good... against elite, high strength, high AP weapons: their 4++ and WS/BS6+ debuff means that low rate of fire power weapons that ignore armour aren't going to work that well but at toughness 4 and only a 6+ armour save, high rate of fire weapons will tear through them easily.

10 WE berzerkers can't expect to kill one culexus assassin on the charge. Don't dismiss this concept without looking into the factors.

8 Man Berzerker unit with Chainaxe and Chainswords with a Dark Apostle and an Exalted Champion just pile out of a Rhino:
50x S6 AP-1 attacks and 16xS5 attacks.
That does a total of 11.5 wounds to a Culexus without any psychic buffs or strategems used, so you could drop 2 Culexus' per turn.

And of course, because they are a CQC unit, they could ignore the Culexus' and rofl stomp the rest of the list since they do 30 wounds against regular assassins without the WS/BS6+ debuff. The Dreadnoughts would require the VotLW strategem (which is only 1CP) but they could bring down 1 a turn.

It would be an interesting game but not an OP list unless your list isn't well rounded.

Ghorgul wrote:
Amount of denialism in this thread is mind-boggling.

The list in question is basically min-maxing the effect of few rules for maximum benefit.

So is EVERY competitive list.

My list I have run, and other lists I have been planning to run after getting and making the models would seriously struggle against this list, especially the Culexus assassins.

I hate to say it, but the problem is probably your list. This IS a highly competitive list and you will similarly need one to take it. It's also an anti-heavy shooting list, which from the rest of your post seems to be what you make.

I pay CSM. If I would go all-in with the suggested flamer spam I might end up with a list that can beat this list, but then I lose to even most basic TAC lists with even minimum armor.

No one is saying you got to go all in. The amount of Flamers in a TAC should be sufficient when taken with the army as a whole.

don't think the person advocating for flamer spam and claiming this is easily countered has really sat down and done the math. Single Culexus costs exactly the same amount as CSM 5 man squad with flamer and combi-flamer while the said CSM squad remains infinitely more easy to remove than a single Culexus. Going for more elite does not work, those assassins excel against high cost elite units. Terminator deep-strike does not work, the unit is too expensive versus the theoretical damage it can make, and then after that single Culexus can easily chomp through the terminators in melee.

Take your Terminator units, more than one, and charge. You will find you suddenly demolish the Culexus. CSM has access to charge re-rolls. With those and CP you should get 1 of every 2 units into melee.

Huge cultist MSU spam and just playing objectives might work, but who seriously wants to play list like that?

Probably all the people who run them? Plus everyone who likes hordes in general.

And then you will lose to most TAC lists as everyone is trying to go for some amount of horde control and cultists are one of the easiest hordes to remove because CSM has no access to commissars and morale mitigation other than expensive dark apostle, but getting these will make you lose to assassin list again as they can so easily shoot them from far away and then the points are away from more cultists.

Bottom line, this assassin list is disgustingly broken, not fun to play against, not fluffy. It's just typical WAAC players finding the borderline broken rules and interactions and min-maxing those.

Bottom line is that this list is good against the kind of list YOU like to play. That does not mean it's broken.

Hell, I bet even jump marine spam would work. Vanguards or death company could probably have the speed and assault power to just annihilate these characters and then consolidate in to another character, and even ASM would do plenty of damage due to striking first on the charge-- and they'd all get first turn charges, especially with black templar rules. And that's not really even considered competitive right now.

The list is good. getting tabled is always an overwhelming loss and this list is good at tabling its opponents, only the wolves in our club have made it past turn 3

So this may not be a popular option, but as a chaos player couldn't you just summon some flamers of tzeench and roast those assassins? They are easy enough to summon and getting d6 pistol shots that auto hit, wound on 4's and need 4's to save, a squad of 10 cost 280 points, are pretty easy to summon on 3d6, and can do 30 shots on average, that's 15 wounds on average going through or 3 assassins dead. And they are pistol so even if you get caught in close combat you can still shoot during your turn.

I mean to me the entire point of being able to summon boils down to not caring what your opponent brings because you should be able to have something in your bag of tricks that can deal with it. If your fighting someone who you won't have any idea what they are bringing this is even a stronger option to use.

Also I do feel that the assassin charecter list is way off balanced. I am just saying it also has some weakness, it's a got me once list because now it's out in the open and people will consider a counter for it next time.

So when do we get to build our list knowing who our opponent will be in a tournament?

That is what makes the assassins deadly in tourny play, your not building a list to deal with it, your building a list to go against anything.

So the assassins win every round and you might get to win 2 of 3 rounds making his list the auto win in a tourny unless all other 5 to 7 players plan to play a list designed to kill his.

Don't Flamers come in out of range?

vaurapung wrote:
So when do we get to build our list knowing who our opponent will be in a tournament?

That is what makes the assassins deadly in tourny play, your not building a list to deal with it, your building a list to go against anything.

So the assassins win every round and you might get to win 2 of 3 rounds making his list the auto win in a tourny unless all other 5 to 7 players plan to play a list designed to kill his.

Simply, now you kind of HAVE TO expect that kind of list. Words will spread, and you will see more of those. So you better tinker how to put flamers for your anti horde weapon instead of normal daka.
Or in other words, to build TAC list now, is to build list that can also deal with culexus shenanigans. Otherwise this will be one corner you didn't took care of.

This list exploits the rules and pisses on fluff. Expect it to be nerfed sooner or later, the same way flyer spam has been nerfed. GW is very responsive these days.

PS : to those speaking about Flamers and such... All assassins have a 4+ Inv Save which means that in order to kill ONE Culexus, you have to inflict 10 wounds upon him. That's 20 Flamers hit, so 6 Flamers (or 12 Burnas). That's a LOT. And you'll only kill 1 model....

I think alot of people doesn't realise how this list works. It shuts down the opponents shooting and psychic powers by placing assassins in front, making virtually all enemies hit on 6+. If one assassin (closest one, the only one you can target) gets hurt, it is swapped for a fresh one. Wounded assassin gets healed by chaplain-dreadnought.

All the while eversor assassins first turn charges whatever threats you have, possibly blowing up if you manage to kill it.

Also note that wounds do not carry over, as each model is its own unit. While you might kill an assassin on the charge with enough flamers, you will not get to overwatch once the next models do - and excessive wounds on the first charge go to waste.

So:
Your army hits on 6+. Opponent controls who you can target. Forget about psychic powers.
Opponents army functions as normal. Vindicare assassins ensure you cant hide your characters.

That is how it is, if he plays smart.

Yeaaaaah, this list is an exploit, so... if the person uses it complains about you prepping your list to counter it, you can call them a whiny little hypocrite and tell them to play a real list instead.

Dark Reapers.

One good option for Eldar are Dark Reapers, since they still hit the Culexus on a 3+.

Out assault them. Whether it is with a mass of boyzs or conscripts or elite units like vanguard vets or berserkers these lists suffer hard against them.

Where they Excel is meta beating elite lists which I don't think is necessarily a horrible thing.

It's all pretty rock, paper, scissors.

Maybe you can assault them. I'm not sure what you'd use to do it. Stealers maybe?

Culexus assassins are difficult to kill for almost everyone. You only hit them on a 6+ (unless you happen to be a dark reaper or Kharn, I believe). They have a bunch of wounds and a 4++. It takes 24 S4 attacks to get a single wound through on them, so even things like units of ork boyz could fail to bring them down.

There are some units that would be good against them. Things like immolators seem a good choice, as they can't be charged from outside of their range.

Quite a lot of psychic powers can sort of work. Smite has to target the nearest model but not all similar powers do. Buffs and debuffs like null zone can still be effective, though I'm not sure even null zone works on a culexus.

I think most Ork TAC lists would destroy this list pretty easily. Other factions may have a harder time doing so

Northern85Star wrote:
I think alot of people doesn't realise how this list works.

It seems you yourself have a problem with how the list works...

Northern85Star wrote:
Wounded assassin gets healed by chaplain-dreadnought.

Chaplain Dreadnoughts can't heal anything

Northern85Star wrote:
While you might kill an assassin on the charge with enough flamers, you will not get to overwatch once the next models do - and excessive wounds on the first charge go to waste.

Units are free to overwatch mutiple times, as long as they are not within 1" of an enemy model. So if the first assassin dies to overwatch, the unit can overwatch on the second assassin.

ItsPug wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
I think alot of people doesn't realise how this list works.

It seems you yourself have a problem with how the list works...

Northern85Star wrote:
Wounded assassin gets healed by chaplain-dreadnought.

Chaplain Dreadnoughts can't heal anything

Northern85Star wrote:
While you might kill an assassin on the charge with enough flamers, you will not get to overwatch once the next models do - and excessive wounds on the first charge go to waste.

Units are free to overwatch mutiple times, as long as they are not within 1" of an enemy model. So if the first assassin dies to overwatch, the unit can overwatch on the second assassin.

I've never heard of chaplin dreadnoughts as a unit. I know there's a FW specific unique one, but not a regular run of the mill one.

If it doesn't take the topic to OT care to elaborate?

Cheers

Andrew

This list is ok, but its seriously lacking in the anti horde and anti vehicle departments. Guard would crush this, super heavy detachments laugh at it as the assasins try to scratch their paint. Tau commander spam and drone spam would remove it from play, gene stealer spam would delete it. Basically the only thing its really good at is beating normal non competitive armies, but things that are actually in the meta, would crush it.

As mentioned Dark Reapers.

7-8 Dark Reapers should mathematically take out 1 Culexus a turn, depending on if you use Starshot or Starswarm Missile.

Starshot (8 reapers)
8 shots, 5.333 hits, 4.444 wounds, 2.222 Unsaved Wounds, 6.667 damage, 1 dead Assassin.
Starswarm (7 Reapers)
14 shots, 9.333 hits, 6.222 Wounds, 3.111 Unsaved Wounds, 6.222 damage, 1 dead Assassin.

ItsPug wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
I think alot of people doesn't realise how this list works.

It seems you yourself have a problem with how the list works...

Northern85Star wrote:
Wounded assassin gets healed by chaplain-dreadnought.

Chaplain Dreadnoughts can't heal anything

Northern85Star wrote:
While you might kill an assassin on the charge with enough flamers, you will not get to overwatch once the next models do - and excessive wounds on the first charge go to waste.

Units are free to overwatch mutiple times, as long as they are not within 1" of an enemy model. So if the first assassin dies to overwatch, the unit can overwatch on the second assassin.

By bad, didnt recall correctly. Cant remember what he used to heal. (Was thinking chaplain = wolf priest, since i play SW, and wolf priest fills the role of both chaplain and apothecary).

Not sure what you figure is going to kill it on the charge. Apart from units with 4+ flamers...

Of course he isn't going to fail his charge, as he will go in with an eversor first.

I dont have my books with me, so i can only try to recollect.

One thought is Stealers.
20 of them with Patriarch and Primus nearby.
Can Advance and still Charge.
Cast Might From Beyond on the Stealers (using a Magus further away to avoid Culexus penalty).
They're now rocking a 4+ to hit the Culexus, 5 attacks each and S5.

I mean, it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but it'd be funny. Assuming none eat Overwatch and they all make it in that's a hilarious 100 attacks, before you even get to the characters. 50 hits, 33 Wounds and 17 unsaved wounds vs T4 characters.

300+ Conscripts? It really doesn't put out that much damage

 JohnnyHell wrote:
One thought is Stealers.
20 of them with Patriarch and Primus nearby.
Can Advance and still Charge.
Cast Might From Beyond on the Stealers (using a Magus further away to avoid Culexus penalty).
They're now rocking a 4+ to hit the Culexus, 5 attacks each and S5.

I mean, it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but it'd be funny. Assuming none eat Overwatch and they all make it in that's a hilarious 100 attacks, before you even get to the characters. 50 hits, 33 Wounds and 17 unsaved wounds vs T4 characters.

You don't even have to attack the culexus, you can just charge right by them. Six models cannot screen against a charge. Just pile all your stealers, gaunts and carnifexes on top of Girliman. To say nothing of all the other things that hardcounters this list: Conscripts, Boyz with shootas, Deffrollas, zerkers in rhinos, chimeras with dual heavy flamers, crisis suits with triple flamers, jumptroops, jetbikes, bikes, flyers, snipers etc. etc.

It's funny how some are justifying that list. It's basically an invis star in an edition designed against the very existence of such things. Expect it won't last long.

dominuschao wrote:
It's funny how some are justifying that list. It's basically an invis star in an edition designed against the very existence of such things. Expect it won't last long.

Not really though, it doesn't have the mobility of the star lists, doesn't have the damage output of stars, CQC completely ignores it's buffs, deep striking and very mobile armies will also ignore it's buffs. This list is literally only affective against non-TAC, heavily shooting, car park lists. I'm glad that a list can finally do some damage to monstosities such as Azrael's Car park.

dominuschao wrote:
It's funny how some are justifying that list. It's basically an invis star in an edition designed against the very existence of such things. Expect it won't last long.

I must of misunderstood I thought this edition was designed from the ground up to support stars.

1 take as many characters as you like because let's face it stars love character spam and we couldn't do that in 7th

2 nah nah na nah you can't shoot me rule so your many characters live because in 7th you only had to kill their unit not every unit in front.

3 area affect bubbles so not just the one star your characters in get's buffed but many units in essence 8 is multi-star mode.

4 combined 3 rule 2 how is culexus not improved invisibility with a 100% success rate.

5 for the edition to be designed it requires some conciouse thought and I'm not that happened I think they kept pandering to moany players with no thought to the impact of the changes.

Seems gimmicky and obviously abuses the intent of the characters being shot at ability. Having 1 character block your whole army from being shot at is clearly not in the spirit of the game in my opinion. If anyone actually thinks this is good for the game, I'd be interested to hear why that is.

To me the simple fix would be to not let characters count when you decide what is the closest model so you would have to have other blocking units in your army.

Simplistic fix would actually just to make assassin's Unique in matched play but I digress.

10 necron immortals with tesla and an overlord buffing them BS+1 will hit the culexus on 5+. Any 5s and 6s will be three hits. 20 shots will be 20 hits. 13 wounds, culexus dead.