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 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Meh, I'd say 40k space marines are better than the 30k ones. Mostly because of what the 40k ones face are much greater enemies than the 30k ones ever came across. Sure there was the heresy, but they never faced anything like the traitor marines, or demons, tyranids and so forth. The 40k marines are prepared, trained and are much more disciplined in their art of war. They are filled with much more wrath and hate than their ancient brothers. A standard 30k marines from the great crusade would not match up against a 40k marine who has seen the horrors of the current galaxy and lived.

There are pretty horrible things in 30k too. Including demons and they could easily have fought Tyranids just not a full Hive Fleet.

pm713 wrote:

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Meh, I'd say 40k space marines are better than the 30k ones. Mostly because of what the 40k ones face are much greater enemies than the 30k ones ever came across. Sure there was the heresy, but they never faced anything like the traitor marines, or demons, tyranids and so forth. The 40k marines are prepared, trained and are much more disciplined in their art of war. They are filled with much more wrath and hate than their ancient brothers. A standard 30k marines from the great crusade would not match up against a 40k marine who has seen the horrors of the current galaxy and lived.

There are pretty horrible things in 30k too. Including demons and they could easily have fought Tyranids just not a full Hive Fleet.

Honestly, My money would be on the Great Crusade in terms of 30k Marines vs Tyranids.

Pre Heresy of course.

Dang, now my mind is racing with how that would have gone.

 Frazzled wrote:
The real question is, is the Guard and Navy better in 30K than 40K. A few thousand marines are irrelevant to the millions of regiments fighting, and the navies above them.

Dunno about the navy, but for the grunts, it depends, I guess, I'd say the Guard is better than the Imperial Militia but the Solar Auxilia is clearly better trained and equipped than your average Guard. Maybe we'll see the standard Imperial army at some point, but I am not trusting FW on this, at all.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Meh, I'd say 40k space marines are better than the 30k ones. Mostly because of what the 40k ones face are much greater enemies than the 30k ones ever came across. Sure there was the heresy, but they never faced anything like the traitor marines, or demons, tyranids and so forth. The 40k marines are prepared, trained and are much more disciplined in their art of war. They are filled with much more wrath and hate than their ancient brothers. A standard 30k marines from the great crusade would not match up against a 40k marine who has seen the horrors of the current galaxy and lived.

There are pretty horrible things in 30k too. Including demons and they could easily have fought Tyranids just not a full Hive Fleet.

Honestly, My money would be on the Great Crusade in terms of 30k Marines vs Tyranids.

Pre Heresy of course.

Dang, now my mind is racing with how that would have gone.

My money is where your money is. An entire legion is an incredible force of war, and the exotic technology of the Great Crusade/HH era is being underestimated. The Lion was continuously ambushing the Night Lords because he owned a sentient warp engine that flattened the warp for travel. Phosphex burned indefinitely and was attracted to movement. Primarchs were literal gods of war, I can see a legion taking on a hive fleet threat.

I think in a straight up fight between the two the 30K marine wins more or less on equipment.

Against virtually anything else I'd take the 40K marine hands down due to their experience. 40K marines know how to deal with all of the threats out there. In the HH novels marines are being slaughtered by the boat load by a couple of daemons because the marines have no idea how to handle them and are apparently piss poor at being careful until they understand what they are dealing with.

The two marines have very different mentalities I think. the 30K marines are much more analogous to the Imperial guard in that they were thrown en mass against problems with an expected high mortality rate. The 40K marines are thrown against problems in a surgical fashion with the expectation of them being careful and taking the best path towards victory they can find, which is often times not just running at it bolter firing.

 Formosa wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Animus wrote:
40k Marines are superior, especially with the advent of the Primaris Marines.
After the Heresy Guilliman was able to recognise flaws in the Marine creation process that led to physical and mental weakness in the Legionnaires, and he fixed them.
So even old type Marines should be mentally and physically stronger than their counter parts in the Legions would have been.

Can you cite anything that supports any of that, I know primaris are designed to be superior, thats fine, but the rest is simply untrue.

Of course. The latest Space Marine codex talks about it on page 9. The oldest occurrence that I know is codex Ultramarines also page 9.

Codex Space Marines wrote:The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in
the gene-seed of several Space Marine Legions.
These defects had been exacerbated by the
accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques
needed to keep the huge Space Marine
Legions up to strength. Guilliman believed
that the Chaos Powers were able to exploit the
resultant physical and mental corruption to
turn Horus’ troops against the Emperor. So
had the Emperor’s great plan contained the
seeds of its own downfall.

One of the key objectives of the new Codex
Astartes was to recognise and expunge these
genetic weaknesses. As a result, the Codex
Astartes decreed that Space Marines would
forever more be created and trained in a more
measured fashion. The genetic banks used to
create Astartes implants would be carefully
monitored and scrutinised for any defects.
Cultivated organs would be subject to the
most stringent tests of purity. Young initiates
would undergo trials of suitability before they
were accepted, and only those of the very
sternest character would be chosen.

Thanks dude, That is just Guillians opinion and frankly, not worth much, we have first hand accounts of why the primarchs fell and it had nothing to do with the gene seed process, it was the primarchs and the zealous belief in them that dragged the legions down with them, the eaters fell because of Angron, the Children because of Fulgrim, Iron warriors, Perturabo etc.

The Codex attempted to rid the genetic weakness of legions that did not have a genetic weakness, it failed, the marine creation process degraded and fell into ritual (not all chapters) since the heresy, this led to a decline in aspirants passing and becoming marines, as the process was not fully understood anymore (not all chapters), the testing of the gene seed also failed as it still regressed.

Basically nothing in that statement contradicts any of the established fluff showing the legions as superior version of the space marine, until primaris came along.

Fully half of all space marines during the time of the crusade turned traitor.

So you know, there's that.

I read that the 30k great crusade marines were hard pressed and getting their butts handed to them by the squats when warring on the squat homeworlds.
The MkIV armor ( I think) was improved and made from the fighting with the squats.

If anything a lot of the early stuff was inferior and needed to be improved.

I know that that stuff may be rare....but a lot of gear and vehicles did not exist back then.

The oldest Land Raiders were not the equal of the Spartan. The original Spartan Land Raider was an improved variant. It had twin mounted Bolters that were manned by a Marine on the outside. plus....the 2 sponson mounted weapons.

Fast forward....the new land raiders have auto storm bolters and a plethora of improved weapons.

Look at how the Predator had improved. The special variants like the Baal Predator and the Dark Angels Speeders.

All in All 30k marines would have better made gear but still a much smaller variety. The 40K Marines could throw a lot of new tricks and surprises and be less predictable in their capabilities than the older.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, in the epic squat fluff put out by GW back in the day....They stated that the Squat homeworlds would be the most resistant to a tyranid threat. First there would be little interest for the tyranids to devour those harsh worlds...likely seeking more lively bio worlds.

Think about it. You have your Squat forces, who live and do everything in tunnels. These tunnels are big enough for maybe genestealers and guants at best to get in. No warriors or the big nasties.
The squats are masters of substrate warfare with mole mortars, tunnellers, and sonic and grav weapons. Only the weakest of the tyranid forces could penetrate the inner workings of the squats. Sure after time the world would be drained....but the effort would be far far greater.

If Marines had difficulties fighting on the favorite turf of squats....then the smaller nid forces would fare significantly worse.

 admironheart wrote:
.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, in the epic squat fluff put out by GW back in the day....They stated that the Squat homeworlds would be the most resistant to a tyranid threat. First there would be little interest for the tyranids to devour those harsh worlds...likely seeking more lively bio worlds.

Think about it. You have your Squat forces, who live and do everything in tunnels. These tunnels are big enough for maybe genestealers and guants at best to get in. No warriors or the big nasties.
The squats are masters of substrate warfare with mole mortars, tunnellers, and sonic and grav weapons. Only the weakest of the tyranid forces could penetrate the inner workings of the squats. Sure after time the world would be drained....but the effort would be far far greater.

If Marines had difficulties fighting on the favorite turf of squats....then the smaller nid forces would fare significantly worse.

That's the part that pi$$es me off the most about the"Great Sqautting", Theyre supposed to be the reason Marines got upgraded armour. So how in the mother loving emperors name do they get wiped out to a "man"? Im pretty sure they would've figured out a way to either escape or take the fight back to the nids.

Racerguy180 wrote:
That's the part that pi$$es me off the most about the"Great Sqautting", Theyre supposed to be the reason Marines got upgraded armour. So how in the mother loving emperors name do they get wiped out to a "man"? Im pretty sure they would've figured out a way to either escape or take the fight back to the nids.

just lazy and poor writing.

First of all many of the squat original homeworlds were well within the boundries of the imperium. These worlds would have had full imperial protection and imperial counter measures as the tyranids hit Marines and Guard bastions.

Second, many of the squat original homeworlds were within the eye of terror and succumbed to chaos.

So even with they lazy GW Squating....they have yet to explain what happened to those mighty forces.

Remember there were 700 Leagues of Squats. Every League had 4 to 300 Strongholds from several worlds each. Each stronghold could have rivaled a marine world or space fortress.
If Hive Behemoth was stopped by the Ultramarine homeworlds and the 700 leagues arguably were as powerful as all the 1000 marine chapters plus a sizeable portion of the guard, then one could reason that the Hive fleet that attacked the Squats was larger than all the others combined and most likely the losses they took to take out the squats was massive if not critical to the demise of the tyranids as most of their race perished to take out the squats. In fact you could say the nids are now a small shadow of their former selves...much like the elder. This is of course one would use logic and GW background for statistical comparisons.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Fully half of all space marines during the time of the crusade turned traitor.

So you know, there's that.

But not due to genetic flaw. Cult of personality is funny thing. Head turns, body turns. World eaters turned because Angron(and legion as a whole) was treated the way they were by Emperor. Word bearers likewise. Thousand sons because Horus manipulated them to situation where it was turn or die. How did TS genes cause Horus faking orders for Russ to go and kill Magnus?

Half primarch go traitor. Half marines go traitor.

tneva82 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Fully half of all space marines during the time of the crusade turned traitor.

So you know, there's that.

But not due to genetic flaw. Cult of personality is funny thing. Head turns, body turns. World eaters turned because Angron(and legion as a whole) was treated the way they were by Emperor. Word bearers likewise. Thousand sons because Horus manipulated them to situation where it was turn or die. How did TS genes cause Horus faking orders for Russ to go and kill Magnus?

Half primarch go traitor. Half marines go traitor.

The reasoning is sound, but from what I can tell the proof is lacking. We can probably put this in the "we'll don't know" category. My post was more against the "certainty" of Formosas post.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Animus wrote:
40k Marines are superior, especially with the advent of the Primaris Marines.
After the Heresy Guilliman was able to recognise flaws in the Marine creation process that led to physical and mental weakness in the Legionnaires, and he fixed them.
So even old type Marines should be mentally and physically stronger than their counter parts in the Legions would have been.

Can you cite anything that supports any of that, I know primaris are designed to be superior, thats fine, but the rest is simply untrue.

Of course. The latest Space Marine codex talks about it on page 9. The oldest occurrence that I know is codex Ultramarines also page 9.

Codex Space Marines wrote:The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in
the gene-seed of several Space Marine Legions.
These defects had been exacerbated by the
accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques
needed to keep the huge Space Marine
Legions up to strength. Guilliman believed
that the Chaos Powers were able to exploit the
resultant physical and mental corruption to
turn Horus’ troops against the Emperor. So
had the Emperor’s great plan contained the
seeds of its own downfall.

One of the key objectives of the new Codex
Astartes was to recognise and expunge these
genetic weaknesses. As a result, the Codex
Astartes decreed that Space Marines would
forever more be created and trained in a more
measured fashion. The genetic banks used to
create Astartes implants would be carefully
monitored and scrutinised for any defects.
Cultivated organs would be subject to the
most stringent tests of purity. Young initiates
would undergo trials of suitability before they
were accepted, and only those of the very
sternest character would be chosen.

Thanks dude, That is just Guillians opinion and frankly, not worth much, we have first hand accounts of why the primarchs fell and it had nothing to do with the gene seed process, it was the primarchs and the zealous belief in them that dragged the legions down with them, the eaters fell because of Angron, the Children because of Fulgrim, Iron warriors, Perturabo etc.

The Codex attempted to rid the genetic weakness of legions that did not have a genetic weakness, it failed, the marine creation process degraded and fell into ritual (not all chapters) since the heresy, this led to a decline in aspirants passing and becoming marines, as the process was not fully understood anymore (not all chapters), the testing of the gene seed also failed as it still regressed.

Basically nothing in that statement contradicts any of the established fluff showing the legions as superior version of the space marine, until primaris came along.

Fully half of all space marines during the time of the crusade turned traitor.

So you know, there's that.

That had nothing to do with gene seed.

World Eaters: Angron went traitor because he hated the emperor,the nails would have led them down the path to be purged eventually, but it wasnt the gene seed.

Word Bearers: Lorgar turned due to being chastised by the emperor and the words of Kor Pharon/Eribus, the legion followed, not the gene seed.

Night Lords: Went traitor because Kurze turned traitor, and because the recruitment process was corrupted due to nocturne being a hell hole.

Iron Warriors: Tricked by Horus and Peturabos hubris, the legion followed.

Emperors Children: lets face it, you worship your primarch as the near epitome of perfection and he swan dives into chaos, your gonna follow, not gene seed.

Sons of Horus: Dont need to explain this one, its Horus dude....

Alpha Legion: ... who knows, but not the gene seed.

Death Guard: Mortarion hated psykers and witches so much that he believed Horus's lie, legion follows...

Thousand sons: didnt really have a choice, they were forced into being traitors.

The one thing Girlyman was right about is that no one person should ever be in charge of a legion again, and breaking up the legions prevented this, it was not there training or gene seed that led to the fall, it was there utter loyalty to the primarchs they followed, something the Big E bred into them, and something Girlyman only enhanced, so he learned nothing at all there, the recruiting process has gotten a lot worse since the heresy for some chapters, for others its pretty much the same, so girlymans change has changed nothing there either, its still degraded.

So with all that we see that his response was utterly idiotic when we see whats happened, and not in character with the HH version of Guiliman or the new version, that version would not have made the above statement .

Why so serious guys?
30k marines are definitely more superior. Despite their less trained/prepared arguments, look at what they produced:

Marneus Calgar
Dante
Azrael
Mephiston
Ulrik
Logan
Abaddon

and so on..... they are 30k marines, and they are clearly superior not by gear only. Has any 40k marines thus far level up to these boys??

I'm confused, isn't the only 30k marine in that list Abaddon?

Are you being ironic?

To be fair though, he does have a point.

30k Marines produced Abbadon, that alone should be enough to prove them inferior.

MalfunctBot wrote:
To be fair though, he does have a point.

30k Marines produced Abbadon, that alone should be enough to prove them inferior.

Ah another Abbadon hater, how hip

 Formosa wrote:

MalfunctBot wrote:
To be fair though, he does have a point.

30k Marines produced Abbadon, that alone should be enough to prove them inferior.

Ah another Abbadon hater, how hip

You mean, hip like a guy that writes "Girlyman"?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

MalfunctBot wrote:
To be fair though, he does have a point.

30k Marines produced Abbadon, that alone should be enough to prove them inferior.

Ah another Abbadon hater, how hip

You mean, hip like a guy that writes "Girlyman"?

Yep we are as childish as each other

nareik wrote:
I'm confused, isn't the only 30k marine in that list Abaddon?

Are you being ironic?

Bjorn is also a 30k marine - he was one of Russ's wolf guard.

luffie wrote:Why so serious guys?
30k marines are definitely more superior. Despite their less trained/prepared arguments, look at what they produced:

Marneus Calgar
Dante
Azrael
Mephiston
Ulrik
Logan
Abaddon

and so on..... they are 30k marines, and they are clearly superior not by gear only. Has any 40k marines thus far level up to these boys??

Well, considering the majority of that list are 40k Astartes, I think you just proved the exact opposite.

The oldest on that list is Dante, who is the oldest non-Dreadnought Loyalist, and he certainly wasn't part of the HH, only being around for about the last thousand years, as opposed to TEN thousand.
In fact, you missed one of the only actual 30k marines who is alive, Bjorn, and he's in a Dreadnought now.

So, really, by your own argument, you've proven 40k is better than 30k.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

luffie wrote:Why so serious guys?
30k marines are definitely more superior. Despite their less trained/prepared arguments, look at what they produced:

Marneus Calgar
Dante
Azrael
Mephiston
Ulrik
Logan
Abaddon

and so on..... they are 30k marines, and they are clearly superior not by gear only. Has any 40k marines thus far level up to these boys??

Well, considering the majority of that list are 40k Astartes, I think you just proved the exact opposite.

The oldest on that list is Dante, who is the oldest non-Dreadnought Loyalist, and he certainly wasn't part of the HH, only being around for about the last thousand years, as opposed to TEN thousand.
In fact, you missed one of the only actual 30k marines who is alive, Bjorn, and he's in a Dreadnought now.

So, really, by your own argument, you've proven 40k is better than 30k.

He is taking the pee lol

Anyway so

Abbadon-abbadon
Marneus - sigismund/Pollux
Dante - amit or pretty much any of the command of the blood angels logion.
Azrael - corswain
Mephiston - ahirman, amon etc.
Ulrik - erebus
Logan - pretty much any space wolf commander, they were so much better in the heresy.

All of them have equivalent or better in the heresy and I'm not even mentioning all the best ones, loads of the tetrarchs, commanders of the various wings, all sorts.

 luffie wrote:
Why so serious guys?
30k marines are definitely more superior. Despite their less trained/prepared arguments, look at what they produced:

Marneus Calgar
Dante
Azrael
Mephiston
Ulrik
Logan
Abaddon

and so on..... they are 30k marines, and they are clearly superior not by gear only. Has any 40k marines thus far level up to these boys??

Ulrik and Logan are post Heresy by about five hundred years.
Ulrik is a badass, Logan is a Mary Sue.
Does Bjorn the Fell-Handed not deserve a mention?

Edit.

I walked right into that.

I reckon if you had 30K Marines vs 40K Marines, then the 40K Marines would win because they have 10,000 more Marines on the table. Need a big table, mind.

 Formosa wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

luffie wrote:Why so serious guys?
30k marines are definitely more superior. Despite their less trained/prepared arguments, look at what they produced:

Marneus Calgar
Dante
Azrael
Mephiston
Ulrik
Logan
Abaddon

and so on..... they are 30k marines, and they are clearly superior not by gear only. Has any 40k marines thus far level up to these boys??

Well, considering the majority of that list are 40k Astartes, I think you just proved the exact opposite.

The oldest on that list is Dante, who is the oldest non-Dreadnought Loyalist, and he certainly wasn't part of the HH, only being around for about the last thousand years, as opposed to TEN thousand.
In fact, you missed one of the only actual 30k marines who is alive, Bjorn, and he's in a Dreadnought now.

So, really, by your own argument, you've proven 40k is better than 30k.

He is taking the pee lol

Anyway so

Abbadon-abbadon
Marneus - sigismund/Pollux
Dante - amit or pretty much any of the command of the blood angels logion.
Azrael - corswain
Mephiston - ahirman, amon etc.
Ulrik - erebus
Logan - pretty much any space wolf commander, they were so much better in the heresy.

All of them have equivalent or better in the heresy and I'm not even mentioning all the best ones, loads of the tetrarchs, commanders of the various wings, all sorts.

None of those have anywhere near the experience or exploits of their 40k counterparts. They aren't even on the same level. Calgar for example has fought in hundreds of campaigns, defeated Avatars of Khaine, Chaos lords and greater daemons. He is noted to be unsurpassed by any in the history of the Ultramarines except Guilliman himself. What is the most amazing thing Sigismund has ever done? He fought and killed some other Marines and then spent the rest of his life failing to kill Abaddon. Don't even get me started about Pollux. Same thing goes for Dante vs Amit, Azrael vs Corswain or Logan vs any of the Space Wolf commanders. Not to mention the powers of Mephiston vs those of 30k (not 40k) Ahriman or Amon. The 'elite of the elite' Space Marines of 40k are much more powerful than the 'mass-produced cannon fodder' Space Marines of 30k, and the same goes for their commanders, who are much older and more experienced than their 30k counterparts.
Aside from being supported by the fluff, it is also pure logic. The Imperium has degenerated since the days of the Heresy. Where Space Marines where once relatively common, were gathered in vast armies and had access to immensely advanced technology to do their job for their them, Space Marines in 40k are rare, having become something of a myth to the Imperium at large. They no longer fight in vast armies, but instead in small elite groups and have to make do with only a shade of the equipment that was available to their 30k counterparts. Because of this, they need to be better on an individual level. They can no longer afford to mass produce Marines, they have to carefully select the best of the best candidates. They need to be better to survive. By contrast, in 30k, spending so much attention on individual Space Marines would have been a waste. Because where a Space Marine in 40k often lives a few hundred years, the average life expectancy of a Space Marine in 30k was measured in months. Selecting and training only the best would not have yielded enough Marines to keep up the war.
Basically, Space Marines in 30k were elite armies. Space Marines in 40k are elite soldiers.

30k Marines are grossly inferior in armor, armament, training, and doctrine. 40k Marines are flat out superior in every possible way due to the Codex reforms of Guilliman,and the gene-seed degradation is balanced out by the fact that many of the Legions didn't give a rat's arse about purity in the first place and mass produced marines with little regard for their genetic health. But just to go over the advantages in detail

-40K Marines have more durable, advanced power armor with MK VII being the pinnacle of marine power armor development in its balancing of qualities until the introduction of MK VIII and the new MK X in Primaris.

-40K Marines have higher caliber, more powerful boltguns, with bolts specially designed for the sundering of power armor, among other specialized munitions.

-40k Marines have vastly superior training, having to undergo around two decades of training and lighter combat experience until they can be even considered a linemen.

-40K Marines have a vastly superior standards of recruitment, with most potentials being screened out/failing, compared to the Legions who would just throw any male of 20 years of age or younger into the system and see if the gak stuck to the wall.

-40k Marines have vastly superior standards of conditioning, with 40K Marines being mostly fearless, refusing to rout regardless of the odds faced, and do not give in to fear and rout. Whereas 30K Marines did feel fear and could rout. Some Chapters take this even further, such as the Dark Angels and Imperial Fists.

-40K Marines have vastly superior doctrine. Instead of the rigid, idiotic structure of legions where you have 20 riflemen with only 1 or 2 support weapons to their name and helpless for the most part if they come up against some variety of foe that cannot be slain by bolter fire. 40K Marines meanwhile are very adaptable thanks to the Codex, with 7 riflemen being supported by 1 special weapon, 1 heavy weapon, and 1 possible special weapon on their officer. Meaning that a tactical squad can support itself if it is found to be under attack by a platoon of tanks or Nids close into melee. Legions are a blunt instrument that fall apart if key units like Special Weapon Squads are wiped out, Chapters can continue to function in a battle despite sustaining grievous losses, and even win.

-40K Marines are vastly more mobile as a military force and are better able to act as a defensive force multiplier. Due to their piecemeal organization, Marines can be spread across the galaxy in 40K and swoop in to aid in key battles right in the nick of time. Whereas Chapters are well suited to dealing with Tyranids for an example, Legions would be hard-pressed to deal with the threats of 40K due to their excessive concentration of such a minor force. That and a Legion deployed upon a planet can be vulnerable to orbital bombardment, potentially wiping out most of the entire respective Legion.

-40K Marines have superior safeguards against corruption. The Chapter's officers, Chaplains, Librarians, Apothecaries, and Techmarines all watch each other and can act as a system of checks and balances to relay information of growing heresy within the Chapter and extinguish it. Instead of being completely overtaken by the chief commanding officer being overtaken by Chaos, like what happened with the Legions.

The only thing 30K Marines have going for them is the prevalence of certain weapons like power weapons or artificer armor amongst their sergeants, but it ultimately doesn't help them that much compared to a 40K marine force. If you were to pit the 30K Marines against the 40K Marines, I would fully expect the Marines of the 41st millennium to grind their Crusade brothers into dust in brutal attrition based conflict. The Marines of 30K are a concentrated, conquering army. The Marines of 40K are a highly agile defensive force that can strike anywhere with no warning. In fact the typical warfighting of 40K Marines is to strike like lightning and hit so hard and so fast that the enemy doesn't realize you have either arrived, left, and won.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
If I want a mass army give me 30k.
If I want spec ops give me 40k.

The two different eras of marines exist to do totally different jobs and do them differently. They both reflect the time they live in.

30k Marines have the superior geneseed and slightly superior equipment, but 40k have a wider range of experience and are zealots.

In a battle between the two in an equal numbered battle I would put my money on the 40k marines. They are each adept in all forms of warfare and have the major morale advantage. They are on average going to be far more zealous and I believe this will give them the edge. They will push on and they will endure where the 30k marines would falter.

If they had equal gear then it would come down geneseed versus knowledge and superior morale and when I doubt I put my money on the crazier of the two.

None of this is true.

30k Marines Know no Fear, they just dont have the rule as it would cause a lot of issues in 30k ruleset, consult the fluff to see the repeated comments from the legionaries themselves.

30k marines are just as "spec ops" as 40k marines, each chapter in a legion, and by extension, company, has its own modus operadii, some legions are more specialised than others, world eaters have devestator Companies for example, which is quite a horrible thought.

30k marines have vastly superior equipment on the whole, or at least access to it, including specialist equipment that are now relics in 40k (solarite power fist, calabanite warblades etc.)

30k marines are just as zealous as 40k ones, if not more so, as the Big E is walking about and so are the primarchs, 40k simply has nothing on that level, most fanatically believed in the imperial truth, while others fanatically believed in the Big E or the primarchs, which sadly is what led to the heresy in the end, following blindly your primarch or having your utter faith in the imperial truth shown to be a massive lie....

So superior gear, equal or better morale (id edge to equal), better geneseed (sometimes, world eaters and emps children did some funky stuff, and raven guard), superior knowledge and morale.

Long story short, the fluff does not support the 40k marines being superior in any way.

40K marines have superior power armor to 30K Marines. The most durable power armor MK from the Crusade is MK III, and it is equaled by MK VIII. MK IV and MK VI is inferior to MK VII in terms of protection. Bolters are also higher caliber and thus more powerful than their 30k counterparts, along with special issue ammo like vengenace rounds being introduced post-heresy. Godwyn's used by Astartes are .75 Caliber, Phobos is .70 Caliber, and Tigrus is .60 Caliber. Unless the fuel being used for the rocket/gunpowder in the kicker charge is more efficient (not that likely), the Godwyn is going to pack a much bigger punch than its older kin.

Another crucial weakness among 30K forces I forgot to address is that marines are only 200 years old. In the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, you will not find a marine who has been a marine for longer than the duration of the Great Crusade itself. Whereas there are Space Marines centuries, even millennia old in the case of the Iron Hands in 40k, this is not true for the Crusade Marines. They are young and have less experienced officers. Astartes like Calgar will have an awful lot more combat and tactical experience than even the great heroes of the crusade such as Sigismund. Hell they're older than the Primarchs.