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With those sorts of numbers, it doesn't really matter if all of those plasma weapons can be vrought to bare at once. It doesn't really matter if a Marine can take two plasma shots and keep going. It's a drop in the ocean of scale that needs to be grasped.

Ok, lets be really brutal to the gamgers here.

Half run away or are killed before they even get a shot off. This is not an eventuality i see as being likely when a group of people is under attack by a foreign power in their own homes. However, i'll humour it for the sake of driving home how scale works.

Lets be over the top on Marine toughness as well and say that they can tank 10 plasma hits before they die. Again, utterly unrealistic, but we'll roll with it for the moment.

In this unrealistic situation, each Marine will have to get lucky 50 times to survive. Against plasma guns alone.

Lets change thigs up slightly with a bit of a weapons mix. We'll have to change to measuring to number of weapons, but it should help to paint a picture.

Using the above calculation each Marine is facing 500 plasma guns.

Lets be cruel and say that one in twenty gangers has some form of heavy weapon (lets average that to a heavy bolter), rather than a more realistic higher figure. So, each marine is facing 500 plasma guns and 250 heavy bolters.

Lets be even crueller and say that of the remaining regular gangers, only half have an autogun. The rest fighting with their teeth or a spoon or something. So each marine is facing 500 plasma guns, 250 heavy bolters and 2500 autoguns.

Each marine.

That's the best case scenario with an enemy force where 50% runs away.

Lets say that the Marines have an advantage due to the home field (which i don't believe they do in the slightest, given the gangers have fought in this hive their whole life and the marines have never set foot here) and/or bottlenecking. Lets say that that advantage averages out to an extreme 25% more gangers who never get a shot off. So, the Marines are able to neutralise fully 75% of their opposing forces without them ever being able to get a shot off.

Each marine is still facing 250 plasma guns, 125 heavy bolters and 1250 autoguns.

Each marine.

That's the level of scale they're against. It's simply not possible for our understanding of what Marines are capable of, even when you blow that understanding out of all proportion.

Apologies if i'm banging on about this but it's actually really tricky to grasp scale (and it was only by being on the opposing end of a similar breakdown that i got how ineffective 100 marines are as a fighting force in a planetary war).

Another way of looking at it, lets say that after all of the possible factors have been accounted for, only 10% of gangers ever fire a single shot that hits a marine. Each marine has to endure 100 plasma hits, 50 heavy bolter hits and 250 autogun rounds.

I don't know of anywhere where someone suggests that a marine can endure 100 hits from a plasma gun during a single conflict. And that's one of the less well armed hives where 90% of the gangers are cowards or incompetent.

It's not that gangers are tough, or brave, or well trained (although all of those points are arguable). It's not that marines are weak. It's simply that hives are HUGE, and marine forces in the fluff are unrealistically small in order to facilitate easy construction of narratives around a relatable number of dudes

Oh, and most worlds have more than one hive...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Funny you mention Iraq and Syria as those are textbook examples of why it doesn't work to wipe out a government, install your own and call it a day.

ISIS is also a textbook example of why 'cut off the head and the body will die' is simply fantasy when it comes to pacifying populations in their native lands.

In 40K fluff's defense, planetary intervention by marines is often only to eliminate or punish certain leadership, for not paying tithes for example, or putting down a specific (rebellion/chaos/Genestealer/other xenos) cult. The body is fine, its the head that needs to be removed or chastised back into line.

Additionally many of the worlds visited are not hive or other major worlds but small colonies on worlds barely habitable (think the colony in Aliens for example, or a colony from Star Trek where the population is less than a million).

In my personal view, when an entire major planet revolts, if the marines are involved, they are only the lead element to take out hard points like planetary defense stations and silos, letting the main IG invasion a clear route in (think Gereon invasion here).but then again, in my personal "fluff" actual chapters are not limited to 1,000, but older legion sized of 10,000 - 100,000. My $.02 only, and thats depreciated in value over the last few years.

Yeah those two headcanon changes make all the difference when it comes to Marines being actually of any use whatsoever on a planetary scale war

With those two, the maths evens out to a much more favourable number

The other big thing is that this scale doesn't just apply in the single instance of hive gangers. It applies to each and every single time marines are portrayed as the sole fighting force against an army invading a planet.

It's just not really believable at all...

Two small changes though and it's fixed. Companies are 10-100,000 strong. Wherever Marines go they're acconpanied by serfs, native troops and/or IG regiments that fight alongside but never get recorded in history just like the helots amd thespians at the battle of thermopylae

Fixed!

As an aside, if the above is true...the Legions during the heresy must have been absolutely colossal. A terrifying sight to behold!

You don't need to shoot everyone on a planet.
Hive worlds especially will be vulnerable to strikes on infrastructure. Knock out a ventilation system and watch as they suffocate on toxic fumes, turn off the power and see how long they can last in the dark, destroy the space port and see how well they can shoot at you after a few weeks without food.

That's assuming there's no redundant system, no food stockpiles, that you have enough Marines to constantly target systems.

 Bobthehero wrote:
That's assuming there's no redundant system, no food stockpiles, that you have enough Marines to constantly target systems.

Well of course you'd have to destroy the back ups. How much food could you possible stockpile for an entire hive? The Governor's men or however will probably be well fed, but all those Gangers you're worrying about won't be. And you don't need to constantly target anything you just need to pick your targets carefully.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Spoiler:

With those sorts of numbers, it doesn't really matter if all of those plasma weapons can be vrought to bare at once. It doesn't really matter if a Marine can take two plasma shots and keep going. It's a drop in the ocean of scale that needs to be grasped.

Ok, lets be really brutal to the gamgers here.

Half run away or are killed before they even get a shot off. This is not an eventuality i see as being likely when a group of people is under attack by a foreign power in their own homes. However, i'll humour it for the sake of driving home how scale works.

Lets be over the top on Marine toughness as well and say that they can tank 10 plasma hits before they die. Again, utterly unrealistic, but we'll roll with it for the moment.

In this unrealistic situation, each Marine will have to get lucky 50 times to survive. Against plasma guns alone.

Lets change thigs up slightly with a bit of a weapons mix. We'll have to change to measuring to number of weapons, but it should help to paint a picture.

Using the above calculation each Marine is facing 500 plasma guns.

Lets be cruel and say that one in twenty gangers has some form of heavy weapon (lets average that to a heavy bolter), rather than a more realistic higher figure. So, each marine is facing 500 plasma guns and 250 heavy bolters.

Lets be even crueller and say that of the remaining regular gangers, only half have an autogun. The rest fighting with their teeth or a spoon or something. So each marine is facing 500 plasma guns, 250 heavy bolters and 2500 autoguns.

Each marine.

That's the best case scenario with an enemy force where 50% runs away.

Lets say that the Marines have an advantage due to the home field (which i don't believe they do in the slightest, given the gangers have fought in this hive their whole life and the marines have never set foot here) and/or bottlenecking. Lets say that that advantage averages out to an extreme 25% more gangers who never get a shot off. So, the Marines are able to neutralise fully 75% of their opposing forces without them ever being able to get a shot off.

Each marine is still facing 250 plasma guns, 125 heavy bolters and 1250 autoguns.

Each marine.

That's the level of scale they're against. It's simply not possible for our understanding of what Marines are capable of, even when you blow that understanding out of all proportion.

Apologies if i'm banging on about this but it's actually really tricky to grasp scale (and it was only by being on the opposing end of a similar breakdown that i got how ineffective 100 marines are as a fighting force in a planetary war).

Another way of looking at it, lets say that after all of the possible factors have been accounted for, only 10% of gangers ever fire a single shot that hits a marine. Each marine has to endure 100 plasma hits, 50 heavy bolter hits and 250 autogun rounds.

I don't know of anywhere where someone suggests that a marine can endure 100 hits from a plasma gun during a single conflict. And that's one of the less well armed hives where 90% of the gangers are cowards or incompetent.

It's not that gangers are tough, or brave, or well trained (although all of those points are arguable). It's not that marines are weak. It's simply that hives are HUGE, and marine forces in the fluff are unrealistically small in order to facilitate easy construction of narratives around a relatable number of dudes

Oh, and most worlds have more than one hive...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Funny you mention Iraq and Syria as those are textbook examples of why it doesn't work to wipe out a government, install your own and call it a day.

ISIS is also a textbook example of why 'cut off the head and the body will die' is simply fantasy when it comes to pacifying populations in their native lands.

In 40K fluff's defense, planetary intervention by marines is often only to eliminate or punish certain leadership, for not paying tithes for example, or putting down a specific (rebellion/chaos/Genestealer/other xenos) cult. The body is fine, its the head that needs to be removed or chastised back into line.

Additionally many of the worlds visited are not hive or other major worlds but small colonies on worlds barely habitable (think the colony in Aliens for example, or a colony from Star Trek where the population is less than a million).

In my personal view, when an entire major planet revolts, if the marines are involved, they are only the lead element to take out hard points like planetary defense stations and silos, letting the main IG invasion a clear route in (think Gereon invasion here).but then again, in my personal "fluff" actual chapters are not limited to 1,000, but older legion sized of 10,000 - 100,000. My $.02 only, and thats depreciated in value over the last few years.

Yeah those two headcanon changes make all the difference when it comes to Marines being actually of any use whatsoever on a planetary scale war

With those two, the maths evens out to a much more favourable number

The other big thing is that this scale doesn't just apply in the single instance of hive gangers. It applies to each and every single time marines are portrayed as the sole fighting force against an army invading a planet.

It's just not really believable at all...

Two small changes though and it's fixed. Companies are 10-100,000 strong. Wherever Marines go they're acconpanied by serfs, native troops and/or IG regiments that fight alongside but never get recorded in history just like the helots amd thespians at the battle of thermopylae

Fixed!

As an aside, if the above is true...the Legions during the heresy must have been absolutely colossal. A terrifying sight to behold!

Now that you mention it, a siege might be a useful strategy, of course, what then? What happens after the radio says "we surrender?"

Animus wrote:
You don't need to shoot everyone on a planet.
Hive worlds especially will be vulnerable to strikes on infrastructure. Knock out a ventilation system and watch as they suffocate on toxic fumes, turn off the power and see how long they can last in the dark, destroy the space port and see how well they can shoot at you after a few weeks without food.

Now you're thinking smart that's the way a small strike squad might just be able to bring a hive to its knees.

Provided the inhabitants of the hive don't know how to fix stuff (which admittedly is a possibility in the 41st millennium)

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Animus wrote:
You don't need to shoot everyone on a planet.
Hive worlds especially will be vulnerable to strikes on infrastructure. Knock out a ventilation system and watch as they suffocate on toxic fumes, turn off the power and see how long they can last in the dark, destroy the space port and see how well they can shoot at you after a few weeks without food.

Now you're thinking smart that's the way a small strike squad might just be able to bring a hive to its knees.

Provided the inhabitants of the hive don't know how to fix stuff (which admittedly is a possibility in the 41st millennium)

Indeed, hard to fix certain key components if marines have melted them to slag.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Spoiler:

With those sorts of numbers, it doesn't really matter if all of those plasma weapons can be vrought to bare at once. It doesn't really matter if a Marine can take two plasma shots and keep going. It's a drop in the ocean of scale that needs to be grasped.

Ok, lets be really brutal to the gamgers here.

Half run away or are killed before they even get a shot off. This is not an eventuality i see as being likely when a group of people is under attack by a foreign power in their own homes. However, i'll humour it for the sake of driving home how scale works.

Lets be over the top on Marine toughness as well and say that they can tank 10 plasma hits before they die. Again, utterly unrealistic, but we'll roll with it for the moment.

In this unrealistic situation, each Marine will have to get lucky 50 times to survive. Against plasma guns alone.

Lets change thigs up slightly with a bit of a weapons mix. We'll have to change to measuring to number of weapons, but it should help to paint a picture.

Using the above calculation each Marine is facing 500 plasma guns.

Lets be cruel and say that one in twenty gangers has some form of heavy weapon (lets average that to a heavy bolter), rather than a more realistic higher figure. So, each marine is facing 500 plasma guns and 250 heavy bolters.

Lets be even crueller and say that of the remaining regular gangers, only half have an autogun. The rest fighting with their teeth or a spoon or something. So each marine is facing 500 plasma guns, 250 heavy bolters and 2500 autoguns.

Each marine.

That's the best case scenario with an enemy force where 50% runs away.

Lets say that the Marines have an advantage due to the home field (which i don't believe they do in the slightest, given the gangers have fought in this hive their whole life and the marines have never set foot here) and/or bottlenecking. Lets say that that advantage averages out to an extreme 25% more gangers who never get a shot off. So, the Marines are able to neutralise fully 75% of their opposing forces without them ever being able to get a shot off.

Each marine is still facing 250 plasma guns, 125 heavy bolters and 1250 autoguns.

Each marine.

That's the level of scale they're against. It's simply not possible for our understanding of what Marines are capable of, even when you blow that understanding out of all proportion.

Apologies if i'm banging on about this but it's actually really tricky to grasp scale (and it was only by being on the opposing end of a similar breakdown that i got how ineffective 100 marines are as a fighting force in a planetary war).

Another way of looking at it, lets say that after all of the possible factors have been accounted for, only 10% of gangers ever fire a single shot that hits a marine. Each marine has to endure 100 plasma hits, 50 heavy bolter hits and 250 autogun rounds.

I don't know of anywhere where someone suggests that a marine can endure 100 hits from a plasma gun during a single conflict. And that's one of the less well armed hives where 90% of the gangers are cowards or incompetent.

It's not that gangers are tough, or brave, or well trained (although all of those points are arguable). It's not that marines are weak. It's simply that hives are HUGE, and marine forces in the fluff are unrealistically small in order to facilitate easy construction of narratives around a relatable number of dudes

Oh, and most worlds have more than one hive...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Funny you mention Iraq and Syria as those are textbook examples of why it doesn't work to wipe out a government, install your own and call it a day.

ISIS is also a textbook example of why 'cut off the head and the body will die' is simply fantasy when it comes to pacifying populations in their native lands.

In 40K fluff's defense, planetary intervention by marines is often only to eliminate or punish certain leadership, for not paying tithes for example, or putting down a specific (rebellion/chaos/Genestealer/other xenos) cult. The body is fine, its the head that needs to be removed or chastised back into line.

Additionally many of the worlds visited are not hive or other major worlds but small colonies on worlds barely habitable (think the colony in Aliens for example, or a colony from Star Trek where the population is less than a million).

In my personal view, when an entire major planet revolts, if the marines are involved, they are only the lead element to take out hard points like planetary defense stations and silos, letting the main IG invasion a clear route in (think Gereon invasion here).but then again, in my personal "fluff" actual chapters are not limited to 1,000, but older legion sized of 10,000 - 100,000. My $.02 only, and thats depreciated in value over the last few years.

Yeah those two headcanon changes make all the difference when it comes to Marines being actually of any use whatsoever on a planetary scale war

With those two, the maths evens out to a much more favourable number

The other big thing is that this scale doesn't just apply in the single instance of hive gangers. It applies to each and every single time marines are portrayed as the sole fighting force against an army invading a planet.

It's just not really believable at all...

Two small changes though and it's fixed. Companies are 10-100,000 strong. Wherever Marines go they're acconpanied by serfs, native troops and/or IG regiments that fight alongside but never get recorded in history just like the helots amd thespians at the battle of thermopylae

Fixed!

As an aside, if the above is true...the Legions during the heresy must have been absolutely colossal. A terrifying sight to behold!

 Frazzled wrote:
Now that you mention it, a siege might be a useful strategy, of course, what then? What happens after the radio says "we surrender?"

Let them sweat a while then give terms.

 Frazzled wrote:
Now that you mention it, a siege might be a useful strategy, of course, what then? What happens after the radio says "we surrender?"

Thats when the survivors in the Hiove better pray to the God Emperor that the chapter sieging them is the Salamanders and not the Marines Malevolent. obvioudly it'll vary from chapter to chapter. I suspect in a lot of cases once that infastructure has been wrecked, key leadership people have bee killed, the Marines will let the Imperial Guard dig in outside, and proably move on.

of course the records will indicate the planet was pacified by the actions of the space marines

And then they better pray further that the regiment coming in to siege them isn't the Death Korps

Also what are SM's going to do if the systems they need to target are deep inside the Hive, where pods can't really land. Or the Hive has a large AA/surface to space weapons?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Also what are SM's going to do if the systems they need to target are deep inside the Hive, where pods can't really land. Or the Hive has a large AA/surface to space weapons?

As I understand it, a teleportarium and five Terminators should be a decent answer to dealing with such well-protected systems.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Spoiler:

With those sorts of numbers, it doesn't really matter if all of those plasma weapons can be vrought to bare at once. It doesn't really matter if a Marine can take two plasma shots and keep going. It's a drop in the ocean of scale that needs to be grasped.

Ok, lets be really brutal to the gamgers here.

Half run away or are killed before they even get a shot off. This is not an eventuality i see as being likely when a group of people is under attack by a foreign power in their own homes. However, i'll humour it for the sake of driving home how scale works.

Lets be over the top on Marine toughness as well and say that they can tank 10 plasma hits before they die. Again, utterly unrealistic, but we'll roll with it for the moment.

In this unrealistic situation, each Marine will have to get lucky 50 times to survive. Against plasma guns alone.

Lets change thigs up slightly with a bit of a weapons mix. We'll have to change to measuring to number of weapons, but it should help to paint a picture.

Using the above calculation each Marine is facing 500 plasma guns.

Lets be cruel and say that one in twenty gangers has some form of heavy weapon (lets average that to a heavy bolter), rather than a more realistic higher figure. So, each marine is facing 500 plasma guns and 250 heavy bolters.

Lets be even crueller and say that of the remaining regular gangers, only half have an autogun. The rest fighting with their teeth or a spoon or something. So each marine is facing 500 plasma guns, 250 heavy bolters and 2500 autoguns.

Each marine.

That's the best case scenario with an enemy force where 50% runs away.

Lets say that the Marines have an advantage due to the home field (which i don't believe they do in the slightest, given the gangers have fought in this hive their whole life and the marines have never set foot here) and/or bottlenecking. Lets say that that advantage averages out to an extreme 25% more gangers who never get a shot off. So, the Marines are able to neutralise fully 75% of their opposing forces without them ever being able to get a shot off.

Each marine is still facing 250 plasma guns, 125 heavy bolters and 1250 autoguns.

Each marine.

That's the level of scale they're against. It's simply not possible for our understanding of what Marines are capable of, even when you blow that understanding out of all proportion.

Apologies if i'm banging on about this but it's actually really tricky to grasp scale (and it was only by being on the opposing end of a similar breakdown that i got how ineffective 100 marines are as a fighting force in a planetary war).

Another way of looking at it, lets say that after all of the possible factors have been accounted for, only 10% of gangers ever fire a single shot that hits a marine. Each marine has to endure 100 plasma hits, 50 heavy bolter hits and 250 autogun rounds.

I don't know of anywhere where someone suggests that a marine can endure 100 hits from a plasma gun during a single conflict. And that's one of the less well armed hives where 90% of the gangers are cowards or incompetent.

It's not that gangers are tough, or brave, or well trained (although all of those points are arguable). It's not that marines are weak. It's simply that hives are HUGE, and marine forces in the fluff are unrealistically small in order to facilitate easy construction of narratives around a relatable number of dudes

Oh, and most worlds have more than one hive...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Funny you mention Iraq and Syria as those are textbook examples of why it doesn't work to wipe out a government, install your own and call it a day.

ISIS is also a textbook example of why 'cut off the head and the body will die' is simply fantasy when it comes to pacifying populations in their native lands.

In 40K fluff's defense, planetary intervention by marines is often only to eliminate or punish certain leadership, for not paying tithes for example, or putting down a specific (rebellion/chaos/Genestealer/other xenos) cult. The body is fine, its the head that needs to be removed or chastised back into line.

Additionally many of the worlds visited are not hive or other major worlds but small colonies on worlds barely habitable (think the colony in Aliens for example, or a colony from Star Trek where the population is less than a million).

In my personal view, when an entire major planet revolts, if the marines are involved, they are only the lead element to take out hard points like planetary defense stations and silos, letting the main IG invasion a clear route in (think Gereon invasion here).but then again, in my personal "fluff" actual chapters are not limited to 1,000, but older legion sized of 10,000 - 100,000. My $.02 only, and thats depreciated in value over the last few years.

Yeah those two headcanon changes make all the difference when it comes to Marines being actually of any use whatsoever on a planetary scale war

With those two, the maths evens out to a much more favourable number

The other big thing is that this scale doesn't just apply in the single instance of hive gangers. It applies to each and every single time marines are portrayed as the sole fighting force against an army invading a planet.

It's just not really believable at all...

Two small changes though and it's fixed. Companies are 10-100,000 strong. Wherever Marines go they're acconpanied by serfs, native troops and/or IG regiments that fight alongside but never get recorded in history just like the helots amd thespians at the battle of thermopylae

Fixed!

As an aside, if the above is true...the Legions during the heresy must have been absolutely colossal. A terrifying sight to behold!

 Octopoid wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Also what are SM's going to do if the systems they need to target are deep inside the Hive, where pods can't really land. Or the Hive has a large AA/surface to space weapons?

As I understand it, a teleportarium and five Terminators should be a decent answer to dealing with such well-protected systems.

They would know where to teleport, have enough room to drop in terminators, do they even have teleportarium on the (is that standard on every SM ship, by the way?) do they have terminators on board.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And then they better pray further that the regiment coming in to siege them isn't the Death Korps

Also what are SM's going to do if the systems they need to target are deep inside the Hive, where pods can't really land. Or the Hive has a large AA/surface to space weapons?

Scouts, Reivers, Teleporters.

How do they get in the Hive?

Insertion some distance from the hive, walk up and enter.

Animus wrote:
Insertion some distance from the hive, walk up and enter.

Sounds like a good way to get shot before you even reach the hive

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I guess I just don't understand the point you are trying to make. Because we both said the Marines wouldn't be fighting a straight up fight

Well I guess you're right! A lot of waffle from me and not a particularly clear statement of what I'm after especially seeing as we definitely agree that a head-on assault just wouldn't be how Marines would actually do something in 40k

I suppose there are a couple of points I'm making all merged into one:

I suppose my point is that 100 Marine-strong companies are basically useless at any other fighting on a planetary scale other than covert rapid insertion special-forces type missions, given how massively heavily outnumbered they are in any given conflict.

So if you want to square Marines having a role of frontline shock troops as well as commandos then a good way of doing that is with 10,000-100,000 strong chapters and/or they're supported by a vast number of additional troops that won't be named despite the fact that the Marines were largely inconsequential in the outcome of the war

Fat Necron wrote:
Ynneadwraith: So Dark Eldar have a better mastery of the Webway? I feel like a pleeb just finding this out. They're my third favorite faction just below Iron Warriors and Necron. Still, that does help clear up a bit of confusion considering how they transport the forces. But for a moment, do you mind elaborating as to how the Dark Eldar know the Webway better than their Craftworld cousins? I always believed it was the other way around.

That's interesting... The only thing that actually brings those psycho's together is the thrill of the kill type of scenario. I read it in the codex's but reading the reason as you conveyed paints a clearer picture.

My current idea of lightning raids is challenged, however. Do you believe they'd still operate with absolute efficiency, taking as much as quick as possible or would they willingly risk enemy reinforcements arriving?

Even then, taking entire worlds or pacifying them seems like a lengthy, resource consuming process. My head canon is similar to yours as IG accompany them. As for the time it takes, Space Marines have a terrible ego problem and a bad habit for embellishing.

Just spotted this edit sorry! Nice choices by the way love me some Iron Warriors too. Bonus points if it's Oldcrons as well

Yeah I think a lot of people assume that the CWE are the more technologically advanced society given the usual stereotypes between High Elves and Dark Elves, but it's absolutely the Dark Eldar who are ahead technologically. Furthermore, the Dark Eldar actually live within the webway, being descendants of the inhabitants of the pre-fall webway realms that were a bit of a seat for lawless debauchery.

While it's stated that the Harlequins know more webway passages than any othe eldar faction, I'd place a sure bet that the Dark Eldar have the greatest knowledge of how you manipulate it. In the game that was borne out (in 7th at least) by wargear like the webway portal that allowed you to perfectly deep strike out of a portable webway portal. In the fluff, it's borne out by the fact that they're able to manipulate, create and shut off separate realms within the webway.

Their knowledge isn't perfect, and the webway itself is fairly broken, but of all the factions there is evidence that the Dark Eldar are the best at manipulating it as far as I can tell The CWE use it for transport. The Dark Eldar and Harlequins live there.

Part of the reason I like the way GW provide background in the codices is that you sort of have to piece stuff together yourself, which is part of what prompts all the great debate here

I do believe that there are sound reasons for the DEldar to co-operate in raids. Basically, the income of slaves and the torture they endure is what keeps the Dark Eldar going as a civilisation. Otherwise Slaanesh would leech away their souls faster than they can replace them. Psychotic and hedonistic they might be, but they certainly aren't stupid. Raids might be some of the few times they can truly let loose, but I'm not certain they'd go around risking their lives for the sake of a little more enjoyment (although I expect mistakes have certainly been made on that front, lingering too long because you're enjoying yourself so much and ending up staring down the barrel of a bolter). That is of course if they haven't got a backup plan with a haemonculus and you can afford to die chasing that next hit because for you death holds no real permanence

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Animus wrote:
Insertion some distance from the hive, walk up and enter.

Sounds like a good way to get shot before you even reach the hive

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I guess I just don't understand the point you are trying to make. Because we both said the Marines wouldn't be fighting a straight up fight

Well I guess you're right! A lot of waffle from me and not a particularly clear statement of what I'm after especially seeing as we definitely agree that a head-on assault just wouldn't be how Marines would actually do something in 40k

I suppose there are a couple of points I'm making all merged into one:

I suppose my point is that 100 Marine-strong companies are basically useless at any other fighting on a planetary scale other than covert rapid insertion special-forces type missions, given how massively heavily outnumbered they are in any given conflict.

So if you want to square Marines having a role of frontline shock troops as well as commandos then a good way of doing that is with 10,000-100,000 strong chapters and/or they're supported by a vast number of additional troops that won't be named despite the fact that the Marines were largely inconsequential in the outcome of the war

Fat Necron wrote:
Ynneadwraith: So Dark Eldar have a better mastery of the Webway? I feel like a pleeb just finding this out. They're my third favorite faction just below Iron Warriors and Necron. Still, that does help clear up a bit of confusion considering how they transport the forces. But for a moment, do you mind elaborating as to how the Dark Eldar know the Webway better than their Craftworld cousins? I always believed it was the other way around.

That's interesting... The only thing that actually brings those psycho's together is the thrill of the kill type of scenario. I read it in the codex's but reading the reason as you conveyed paints a clearer picture.

My current idea of lightning raids is challenged, however. Do you believe they'd still operate with absolute efficiency, taking as much as quick as possible or would they willingly risk enemy reinforcements arriving?

Even then, taking entire worlds or pacifying them seems like a lengthy, resource consuming process. My head canon is similar to yours as IG accompany them. As for the time it takes, Space Marines have a terrible ego problem and a bad habit for embellishing.

Just spotted this edit sorry! Nice choices by the way love me some Iron Warriors too. Bonus points if it's Oldcrons as well

Yeah I think a lot of people assume that the CWE are the more technologically advanced society given the usual stereotypes between High Elves and Dark Elves, but it's absolutely the Dark Eldar who are ahead technologically. Furthermore, the Dark Eldar actually live within the webway, being descendants of the inhabitants of the pre-fall webway realms that were a bit of a seat for lawless debauchery.

While it's stated that the Harlequins know more webway passages than any othe eldar faction, I'd place a sure bet that the Dark Eldar have the greatest knowledge of how you manipulate it. In the game that was borne out (in 7th at least) by wargear like the webway portal that allowed you to perfectly deep strike out of a portable webway portal. In the fluff, it's borne out by the fact that they're able to manipulate, create and shut off separate realms within the webway.

Their knowledge isn't perfect, and the webway itself is fairly broken, but of all the factions there is evidence that the Dark Eldar are the best at manipulating it as far as I can tell The CWE use it for transport. The Dark Eldar and Harlequins live there.

Part of the reason I like the way GW provide background in the codices is that you sort of have to piece stuff together yourself, which is part of what prompts all the great debate here

I do believe that there are sound reasons for the DEldar to co-operate in raids. Basically, the income of slaves and the torture they endure is what keeps the Dark Eldar going as a civilisation. Otherwise Slaanesh would leech away their souls faster than they can replace them. Psychotic and hedonistic they might be, but they certainly aren't stupid. Raids might be some of the few times they can truly let loose, but I'm not certain they'd go around risking their lives for the sake of a little more enjoyment (although I expect mistakes have certainly been made on that front, lingering too long because you're enjoying yourself so much and ending up staring down the barrel of a bolter). That is of course if they haven't got a backup plan with a haemonculus and you can afford to die chasing that next hit because for you death holds no real permanence

Sounds like a great bunch of scenarios to try out gamewise.

A ton of things to consider, but on the face of it, I absolutely agree. The idea of a 1,000 marine Chapter is ludicrous and really just a victim of geeky-gamer design back int he 80's, early-90's. Even a full chapter is closer to 2,500 all included, it's a comically small amount of marines. I had more kids in my high school than that (tipped the scales around 3,300).

If we're honest, even in the Horus Heresy era - the numbers were woefully insufficient. Even 100,000 Space Marines would not be a reasonable number to fight an entire planet (particularly when several of the novels indicate that some of these species were capable of killing plenty of Space Marines on a pretty even basis). It's just bad math, so there's a necessary suspension of disbelief to even approach the subject.

Realistically how would it happen? A siege, or threat of planetary bombardment. That, or in the days of Horus Heresy perhaps an indirect religious event (i.e. they show up like conquistadors to Central/South America are treated as gods so the whole population bends knee).

Now, admittedly in our own history we've had massive countries take over other countries with relatively little military power/engagement. There have been large land grabs effected by only a handful of battles - but that was a different time in our history where the distant king or ruler of your "land" was less relevant so someone just galloped into down and said "Hey guys, the new King is named Bill. You owe him some taxes." and people just spit and paid up some taxes.

We can also consider, however, it's possible some of these planets could be half the size of the Earth, and perhaps may have only a million people (a tiny percentage of which would be their armed forces). Or, it's possible the planet is stone-age and they're throwing rocks at Terminators. The more logical idea is that they simply can't, and it's a joke to assume it (short of gathering a couple of chapters together and hurling them all at a small planet). This is why you have the Imperial Navy and Imperial Army.

Almost any other army could probably actually effect a real genuine planetary assault (at least on a small-ish world) through normal military might. Just not the Altoids.

A marine assault wouldn't be against the entire hive , you're average ganger probably doesn't know or care who the governor is and are definitely not going to fight for them , the marine assault would be a decapitation strike on the leadership with a new more reliable governor installed the only change to the average hive citizen would be the face on the currency changing
Look how the current leadership controls the hive big boss at top the actual military go down spire and it's subcontracted gangs and enforcers , marine would never have to fight through everybody the only you would fight the entire hive population
Is if it's turned to chaos or full infection by genestealers and that's when the guard comes in.

 Elbows wrote:
A ton of things to consider, but on the face of it, I absolutely agree. The idea of a 1,000 marine Chapter is ludicrous and really just a victim of geeky-gamer design back int he 80's, early-90's. Even a full chapter is closer to 2,500 all included, it's a comically small amount of marines. I had more kids in my high school than that (tipped the scales around 3,300).

If we're honest, even in the Horus Heresy era - the numbers were woefully insufficient. Even 100,000 Space Marines would not be a reasonable number to fight an entire planet (particularly when several of the novels indicate that some of these species were capable of killing plenty of Space Marines on a pretty even basis). It's just bad math, so there's a necessary suspension of disbelief to even approach the subject.

Realistically how would it happen? A siege, or threat of planetary bombardment. That, or in the days of Horus Heresy perhaps an indirect religious event (i.e. they show up like conquistadors to Central/South America are treated as gods so the whole population bends knee).

Now, admittedly in our own history we've had massive countries take over other countries with relatively little military power/engagement. There have been large land grabs effected by only a handful of battles - but that was a different time in our history where the distant king or ruler of your "land" was less relevant so someone just galloped into down and said "Hey guys, the new King is named Bill. You owe him some taxes." and people just spit and paid up some taxes.

We can also consider, however, it's possible some of these planets could be half the size of the Earth, and perhaps may have only a million people (a tiny percentage of which would be their armed forces). Or, it's possible the planet is stone-age and they're throwing rocks at Terminators. The more logical idea is that they simply can't, and it's a joke to assume it (short of gathering a couple of chapters together and hurling them all at a small planet). This is why you have the Imperial Navy and Imperial Army.

Almost any other army could probably actually effect a real genuine planetary assault (at least on a small-ish world) through normal military might. Just not the Altoids.

Absolutely agreed.

I can see why they did it. People have real difficulty relating to large numbers, stemming from the size of social connections that were required when we were evolving (about 200 people). 100 Marines is a relatable figure that makes things feel personal. 100,000 Marines is just a number that people have difficulty imagining.

 dekinrie wrote:
A marine assault wouldn't be against the entire hive , you're average ganger probably doesn't know or care who the governor is and are definitely not going to fight for them , the marine assault would be a decapitation strike on the leadership with a new more reliable governor installed the only change to the average hive citizen would be the face on the currency changing
Look how the current leadership controls the hive big boss at top the actual military go down spire and it's subcontracted gangs and enforcers , marine would never have to fight through everybody the only you would fight the entire hive population
Is if it's turned to chaos or full infection by genestealers and that's when the guard comes in.

You're getting bogged down in specifics.

The gangers were just an example of what Marines would have to face on a regular basis were they actually used as line soldiers or lone planetary pacification forces. The gangers in the example above are 10%...of 1% of the hive population (so 0.1% of the population actually gets a single shot at the Marines). So, we're not anywhere near assuming that there's a sort of unified resistance to the Marines. It could be a relatively small bunch of radicals in a hive and it would still be enough to slaughter 100 Marines over and over.

It doesn't have to be gangers. It could be a planetary governer's guards. Or the worshippers of a particular cult. The Marines forces are so hopelessly outnumbered that the only way they would be able to affect a surgical strike is if they caught the planetary governer completely unawares. If he knew what was coming for him he'd have the resources to deal with 100 Marines as if it were trivial. Especially seeing as the Marines would be slaughtered by 0.1% of a single hive, and any planet worth fighting for tends to have more than one hive.

The example holds true in actual warfare as well, which is another example where we hear of chapters actually fighting forces that should by all rights steamroller them without noticing because 100 men is irrelevant when it comes to even continent-scale conflict, let alone a true planetary war. The scale's even worse for that, given that we would assume that there is some form of unified resistance.

I take the position that Marines achieve their goals as much by causing fear via slaughtering select targets, or via destroying or controlling vital infrastructure such as air/water filters or power systems. It has always been pretty apparent that they would be overwhelmed by sheer attrition if they actually had to physically fight a whole planet's worth of insurgents.

If the Marines ever had to deal with an underhive of gangers, I would imagine they would target one gang at a time and make bloody examples of them to intimidate the others, and make them fear they could be the next ones. The gangs are not unified so it is likely few would be willing to help a gang under attack, and assuming they could even respond in time before it is all over. Underhive gangs are criminal gangs more than ideological terrorist insurgents, so after a few slaughtered gangs, they might find it better to submit (or at least make pretend to do so until the Marines have left).

However, as others have stated, the nature of many Imperial societies means the rulers rarely matter to the people at the bottom. Whether it is Lord A or Lord B ruling from the top of the hive, matters little to the gangers at the bottom. If it is a run of the mill ruler replacement, the Marines just kill the top, and install one of the rival nobles as ruler, who promises to run things as before and pay their tithes to the Imperium. The gangers at the bottom may never even notice that there was an assault on the hive spire, let alone care who got replaced.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Funny you mention Iraq and Syria as those are textbook examples of why it doesn't work to wipe out a government, install your own and call it a day.

ISIS is also a textbook example of why 'cut off the head and the body will die' is simply fantasy when it comes to pacifying populations in their native lands.

This article explains far better than i can why that's an utter fallacy: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23531390-700-anatomy-of-terror-what-makes-normal-people-become-extremists/

For the tl;dr crowd it basically boils down to if you indescriminately bomb a civilian-heavy environment and run around killing leadership figures, all you end up doing is radicalising the next generation who surprise suprise utterly hate the people who bombed their families and shot their friends. Hence the cyclical nature of terrorist organisations and violent intervention by the west in the middle east, although there are some really interesting points made about how the idea that terrorist cells are led by charismatic individuals and will dissolve if they're killed has not been borne out at all in practice.

Then again, cyclical rebellion and brutal retaliation by the state sounds exactly like something the IoM would do, so perhaps you're right about that all along

"The people" (as in civilians, not soldiers) will only fight if there is something they care deeply about. This is 40k. The people are controlled by fear and ignorance. They will be utterly apathetic about their leadership, and way too afraid to rise up against any invading Imperial force, let alone against the angels (Marines) of the Emperor Himself. The common people won't care if their leadership is killed and replaced. They most likely won't even know who their leadership is in the first place!
40k is a feudal system. For the peasant, it does not matter who lords it over him. It just means paying taxes to a different guy. Life remains exactly the same. In 40k, only way you will get an entire population to fight invaders is if those invaders are heretics or xenos (and their religion will inspire them to fanaticism) or when they feel the invaders threaten their religion (like if it is some cult).

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I still thing 100 Marines would be hopelessly outgunned by even one floor of gangers though. Lets say a hive has an even billion people living in it. Lets be generous and say that 1% of that population are violent gangers. That's still 10,000,000 violent gangers. Again, lets be generous to the Marines and say that 1% of those gangers possess weapons like plasma pistols and melta guns that are frighteningly efficient at killing Marines (the actual figures judging by Necromunda fluff is more like 1 in 6). So, we have 100 Marines staring down the barrels of 100,000 plasma pistols and melta guns. One hundred Marines against one hundred thousand weapons specifically designed for killing Marines, wielded by people who although (mostly) not genetically augmented have been using them regularly since a young age, in a place that they know intimately and is unfamiliar to the Marines, which they have been fighting for their entire lives to defend. Not to mention the other 900,000 gangers who are armed with autoguns which will kill a Marine under weight of fire.

And that is 10,000,000 ganger who are all spread out over a huge area, belong to a myriad rival gangs that hate each other much more than the Astartes, have no way of knowing that they actually outnumber the Astartes by so much, possess no way or desire to effectively coordinate military operations with each other and have no real desire to fight Astartes. The Marines meanwhile can bring all of their force to bear at once and have perfect coordination. They will take out the gangers group by group. Once a couple of gangs have been offed in this way, word will spread that the Space Marines have come to purge all gangs, and all of the remaining gangers are going to run and hide. A conflict like this would be a cakewalk for the Astartes.
A small, well-drilled and coordinated force with high morale can always beat any force that is uncoordinated, ill-disciplined and has low morale, no matter its size.

Look at the Battle of Mogadishu for example, where a group of about 150 US soldiers got into an entire hostile city filled with thousands of insurgents and came out on top, fulfilled their mission and left hundreds of dead insurgents in their wake while suffering only a few casualties themselves. Now imagine the US soldiers are Space Marines and the insurgents may be with many more, but they are not unified and not motivated by a radical religious ideology. It would be a total bloodbath.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Oh, and do you want to be the ganger who can brag to his mates that you killed an Astartes? Hell yeah you do.

No, you want to be the ganger that actually lives to brag about killing an astartes. Actually killing an astartes is not needed for that, surviving however is...

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I think that worlds are much more densely populated than we realize. A hive world may have a population of several million,

You're off by several orders of magnitude there. A "typical" hive world such as Armageddon or Necromunda houses billions of people in each hive. Armageddon seems to be fairly sparsely populated by comparison to Necromunda - I would expect the population of the latter to be in the trillions (10^12). But then, if the Imperium needed to replace house Helmawr, they don't need to fight a trillion angry hive gangers (most of whom don't care or even know who the planetary rulers are). Just the top levels of Hive Primus.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I think that worlds are much more densely populated than we realize. A hive world may have a population of several million,

You're off by several orders of magnitude there. A "typical" hive world such as Armageddon or Necromunda houses billions of people in each hive. Armageddon seems to be fairly sparsely populated by comparison to Necromunda - I would expect the population of the latter to be in the trillions (10^12). But then, if the Imperium needed to replace house Helmawr, they don't need to fight a trillion angry hive gangers (most of whom don't care or even know who the planetary rulers are). Just the top levels of Hive Primus.

Not trillions. The Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion (3rd edition 40K rulebook, p. 114). However the density should be incredible especially in the termite mound style hives (with toxic wasteland in between) that seem to be what Armageddon and Necromunda have. All the artwork that GW depicts for hive cities is nowhere near dense enough and there is too much open space. There shouldn't be much room for vast cathedral-like spaces for the masses with that kind of population density.

The alternative arrangement of "solar" style hives, i.e. the city radiates outward and envelops the surface of the world, is IMO more preferable and likely over the stacked termite mound style, as it leads to more manageable population density.

So this thread quickly pigeon holed itself, didn't it? I only made a quip about the Space Marines cause, well, it's simply too far-fetched to believe. Everyone forgets about the local PDF forces which I frankly believe aren't a rabbling band of morons. These are still trained soldiers defending their Hive against a force threatening to disable the life support. Whether or not they're Astarte's, millions, possibly even billions will perish as a result. Myths and legends be damned, that genocide can't happen. So in those circumstances, there's the additional worry of PDF... BUT ENOUGH ABOUT THIS!

I propose we all agree to disagree on the topic even though I suspect the thread has died. I mainly put down this thread to discuss Planetary Invasions primarily by Xeno's factions. By going off what we've discussed here, we're all quite familiar how the Imperium invades (Spear tip and bury the enemy in bodies) but I'm more curious about the others. Isn't anyone else even mildly curious about the deeper logistical know-how and reasons that might prompt a Xeno's faction to invade/burn/fondle another planet?

For instance, in the lore, there have been cases where Necron's will attack entire worlds and enslave/murder their populations. These are extraterrestrial far beyond our own understanding or comprehension. Our own moral values and logic might appear completely appalling to them. Where we're basically night and day in almost, if not all, aspect compared to the Necron's. That said, our methods to planetary invasion could be considered counter-productive to their own. In all technicality, these are ancient immortal beings who's own history could be considered a tapestry with ours a footnote.

Let me propose an example: The Imperium will immediately establish naval superiority or at least equality. That could be mind boggling when proposed to a Necron. How Necron's traverse immense gulfs of space far quicker than the Imperium, I'd assume they'd easily be more organized, better prepared. I'd imagine there'd be scouting measures in these scenario's but not blatant ones. Personally, their mastery over technology and those Crypteks, it wouldn't go beyond reasoning a simple meteor could be that very scout. Not even the Mechanicus can fathom their technology, so it's within reason an invasion by Necron's would be a swift blow. They gather the Imperium's ship coordinates, arrange ridiculous algorythms for potential manuevers a thousand times over, and wipe any fleet opposition out with cold precision.

Perhaps I'm a tad biased (very) but I highly doubt nor consider any prolonged naval engagements. Their fleet would appear with a sudden, each strategically place for maximum effieciency and cripple the Imperial/Other fleet in moments. (That's assuming each fleet is equal.) An real defense or resistance would have to be endured on ground, which again, isn't favorable yet humans/orks/other races have a knack for survival.

All my predictions for a planned and coordinated Necron Planetary Invasion, I'm not exactly sure how the ground war would play out. We have accounts of Overlords using a Space Marine Monestary as gauntlet for his courts entertainment. Other encounters have a lone Necron Lord herding oodles of Flayed Ones into populated area's for a new city wide butchery. (Mystery meat is on special.) We can assume once the trivial matter of orbital engagement is resolved, efficiency might fly right out the door. The defenders can't flee, their resources are easily recycled in mass, so what becomes of the ground war? (If the hypothetical naval engagement played out as I've described. Feel free to challenge the naval exchange for the sake of debate.)

Granted, this all entirely comes down to which particular Dynasty is attacking but I'd rather leave that up for debate. I favor the notion we expand on this by creating scenario's between an eccentric Dynasty, a ruthless Dynasty, and tactical Dynasty. Each one is broad enough for a blanket summary of what could or could not happen... Probably not the eccentric Dynasty but that's for those who want to have fun.

Ynneadwraith

Kinda Oldcrons kinda not. I've been working on my own lesser pantheon of C'tan for my devoted Necron's. While the new lore does open doors for character in the dynasties, I'm still leaning towards the killer robots in space. Technically speaking, when they were ordered into stasis, they were technically still at war. To me, I'm wondering why awakening Tomb Worlds aren't just continuing this war. You got the Eldar and friends, Orks, which are Old One creations. So they should immediately be mauling them cause, well, those are probably their most recent/fondest memories. The Imperium, Chaos, and Tyranids (possibly) could be chalked up as Old One creations.

It nags at me, as you can tell, but that's why we have head canon and ignore bits of fluff we don't like. I personally hope once the Silent King returns, a lot of Necron will bend the knee to the last Triarch and finished what was started so long ago. I get goose bumps just thinking about it.

Perhaps I worded that wrong, what I meant to say was the CWE might have a more intimate relation with the webway. A huge difference between them and their sadomasochist cousins is their use of Wraithbone Constructs and psychic abilities. CWE are famed for ridiculous levels of psychic power, which as we know, is drawn from the Warp. Where the webway is located inside the warp and their constant references of reliance on said webway, it's easy to assume they traverse it quite often. The Seers and referenced reliance implies a deeper depth of knowledge.
As for the Dark Eldar, I'd easily say they're more technologically advanced. They've plucked stars from the galaxy just to light Commorragh. Where they don't have Wraithbone, they've managed to craft equivalent armor. Because they've turned away the psychic gifts, other, perhaps more ingenious methods were found. And before you mention it, if you do, I'm aware Craftworlds are possibly the equal to Eldar-made planets but that was a long time ago. The methods and gifts used to create such behemoths might not even be available yet here we have, and I say again, their cousins pulling freaking SUN! out of the galaxy. The feat alone is unimaginable...

Oh shoot, I don't know why I went on that long tangent thinking we were in disagreement. After I read your reply, I went to gander the codex's just to emphasize the point and yet I somehow started babbling on. Eh, maybe someone will enjoy it.

Beyond torture and sodomy, the slaves may prove a more crucial role in Commorragh. When I read about the Thorn Keep (I think that's the name) mere humans couldn't sustain it's infrastructure due to poisons. The Archon needed hardier slaves, thus, kidnapped a bunch of Orks. That suggests a more menial role for slaves, as a whole instead of just targets for javelin practice. One Archon's power could grow to such a height that risking a raid on a Hive City might become necessary. However, I do believe he'd gather considerable allies in such a venture, especially witches. Underhives are notorious for breeding some badass's. While the scuffle might be a bit dragged on, I'm sure the Wych cults would appreciate the offering... Plus, bagging a few Space Marines could be considered gravy.

What's that, a half-born wanna-be Archon was bisected from the crotch up? Oh my, his retinue was vaporized by a Plasma cannon?... Oh joy, dibs on the raiders!

I should stop now before I start derailing myself further. Whenever I get the chance to talk in-depth about 40K Xeno's lore, my mind wanders everywhere.

locarno24 wrote:
Also, one big differerence between the Imperium and the US military is.....err....rules of engagement?

Compare to the roman legions, who also occupied a huge territory and kept the natives suppressed.

The US, for example, does "cut off the head and the body will die". And....it doesnt. The imperial military will happily exterminate the entirety of a world's ruling nobility - or even entire population - in pretty brutal ways.
Of couse, once you start ruling by brutality, you kind of have to keep doing that, but brutality is not something the imperium is short of.

This requires you to know where the head is. Imagine if you flew into earth orbit on a spaceship, and looked down on our planet. Where are you going to send your drop pods with (lets be generous) a total number of a thousand marines?

From orbit we don't have borders. There's no stars on capitals. Some countries have hundreds of miles of urban and semi-urban area just melted together. You're not going to be able to poke Washington DC on an orbital picture and say "that's it, that's the rebel base. And I'm sure skywalker is with them." And even if you do, that's just one of a couple hundred nations! Even if you pacify the leaders, there's no guarantee they were well liked. . .maybe the constituent parts tear themselves up in civil war after you "chop off the head." Brutality only works if people know about it. If you drop pod into London, and butcher the population, how is the rest of the world going to get that communicated?

Space Marines really do seem like a textbook point of spear unit, that would really only work against existing imperial territory that has rebelled. Someplace you speak the local language, know who the leaders are, and have enough of a cultural heritage with for the average man on the street to get his ass back in line when he hears what happened to Governor Jerkface and the entire governing cabinet. Not that he probably was out of line anyway, since the average hive worlder has zero say in how his government operates.

You identify the largest population centres, and neutralise them FIRST with orbital strikes. Sure, you won't kill them all, but it WILL galvanise the "capitols" into action. Those can be found by monitoring local communications for that area.

(If they can travel here from other worlds, they should be able to eavesdrop on communications from a fair distance out. Our over-reliance on the "nationalism" thing is plainly obvious from our broadcasting detritus).

Marines are used for precision assaults where you want that patch of ground. You don't assault with a squad or section at a time (neither do marines). If they have access to assassins, then infiltration and disruption are also tools at their disposal. Guard are usually used to hold it, but the orbital strikes/marine shock assaults will take them. You don't throw them into a meatgrinder (that's the guard's job).

Especially when you can also teleport forces into the beach-head.

Military bases tend towards large and sprawling (in order to contain the masses of hardware and personnel required to maintain them).

Any resistance we can offer to an orbital attack is minimal at best (we have chemical fuelled rockets with nukes. They have shields - and the fact that nukes don't work as well in vacuum).

That said, GW have never been good at "scale of conflict" (or scale in general) and their numbers in the game don't work in a "realism" sense.

An empire of a million worlds, and only a thousand chapters (of a nominal thousand men-under-arms each) is pitifully small for the empire of its size.