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Dionysodorus wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

peteralmo wrote:
I think the eldar are suffering from a number of over costed under performing units from the index atm, the falcon and the fire prism are some big ones. Like I said before I like the night spinner a lot. And yeah wraithlords have been bad for a while now. I think dreadnought types in general were improved, of course, but they still need help. They're not particularly shooty, save FW of course, and they only ever have 4 attacks which isn't a ton, they need a delivery system, which wraithlords do not have, or they need relentless so that it actually makes sense to give them good heavy weapons, move them up the board to make use of those 4 attacks, while also being able to shoot at BS. I'm just not high on dreadnought varients at all right now, save SM coming out of a stormraven.

Why would a wraithlord get these things when a dreadnought/helbrute does not? A wraithlord has access to 2 heavy weapons, plus 2 small weapons, a sword without having to give up something to take it. This is coming from someone who plays Iyanden and has 2 wraithlords, they are not that bad. What they could use is a strategem that gives them some form of benefit or allow them to utilize a specific craftworld trait.

So, dreadnoughts do get these things. There are dreadnought drop pods, and Stormravens can carry them. Dreadnoughts can pay 20 more points for BS2+ and 6+ FNP, which makes them a lot more able to move forward while firing. A dreadnought can take a twin lascannon or an assault cannon without having to give up its close combat attacks, and it gets 4 of them. More importantly, since not many people are actually taking mixed CC/shooty dreads, dreadnoughts can give up their fists. The Wraithlord is stuck paying for its close combat ability even if you don't want it, whereas a dreadnought can take a twin autocannon or a missle launcher instead of its fist and actually get cheaper. FW variants offer quad- heavy weapon dreads, 10-wound options, invulnerable saves, etc.

So basically you want a new unit not a wraithlord which is what you keep describing above? A basic dreadnought if it takes 2 heavy weapons pretty much sucks in close combat, not so the wraithlord. The wraithlord just does it better than the dread. So no delivery system? Most people playing with dreads are not using drop pods, in fact, I haven't even seen a drop pod used.

How about just adding an option for a 5++ with a sheild in place of a catapult. An all combat lord would be viable if he had an invulne.

 bullyboy wrote:

So basically you want a new unit not a wraithlord which is what you keep describing above? A basic dreadnought if it takes 2 heavy weapons pretty much sucks in close combat, not so the wraithlord. The wraithlord just does it better than the dread. So no delivery system? Most people playing with dreads are not using drop pods, in fact, I haven't even seen a drop pod used.

This is a very weird post. I'll be honest, this really just reads like defensive scrambling to distract from the fact that you were wrong in basically every way. But anyway:

1) I can't really make heads or tails of your first sentence. I didn't express anything like this. The only part of my post that maybe this is a response to is when I pointed out that dreadnoughts have two delivery options, so you were wrong when you said they didn't.

2) I addressed the heavy weapons thing in my post. You're just being disingenuous. A Wraithlord can take two heavy weapons on top of its fists. A Dreadnought can take a twin lascannon or a twin heavy bolter or a twin autocannon or an assault cannon (which is as good as two of another weapon) in addition to a fist, and it gets an extra attack at a higher strength relative to the WK. The WK can take a Ghostglaive, which improves its AP and damage slightly, but it's still going to be generally worse than a Dreadnought with a single fist. And as I explained, it's purely an advantage for the Dreadnought that it can choose to replace its fist with another gun. You can, if you want, bring a Dreadnought armed with 4 lascannons or autocannons or heavy bolters, which is twice as shooty as a Wraithlord can possibly get.

3) Yeah, drop pods aren't great right now. This doesn't seem to be relevant -- this is the sort of thing that makes your post read as an attempt to distract. That said, I've definitely seen Chaos players using their version of drop pods for Dreadnoughts, and I've seen Stormravens used to deliver them.

Well thats the point, stormravens are excellent right now, and the fact that a dread can tuck into one is very convenient. Also you have the problem of no relentless, which does affect both types though venerable basically negates this, but again, the lord has to foot slog across the board so his guns are pretty much a universal 4+ to hit which is terrible, considering he almost never has a buff. The SM dread on the other hand often comes out of the stormraven attached to some sort of an additional buff in the form of an HQ. Also the additional catapaults or flamers on the lord aren't doing that much when foot slogging across the table. Believe me, as a lover of Eldar first and foremost I wish this wasn't true, in fact I can still remember when wraithlords went by a different name and had toughness 10 lol, ah the good old days.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

But the point of Eldar is also to have a viable ... Eldar army, and if the codex changes a few things (some points adjustments and stratagems) Night Spinners could be (and i think they might be) really good.

No LoS shooting on a vehicle that can move is really strong. Yes a WS is great too and can get guys to places while staying alive and doing some damage, but it wont do damage like a Night Spinner.

Dark Reapers also cant shoot out of LoS and can die easier.

Yeah I agree with you. But at this point I'm not above cherry picking out the best units of each Aeldari faction so that's the mindset I tend to roll.
Dark Reapers are also significantly more durable and shooty with some pocket HQs. I would never take Dark Reapers without a pocket Warlock (or two).


Speaking of Warlocks, I think they're a great unit that I don't see a lot of. A 37 point HQ tax that brings some really good force multipliers. I'm getting like 3 to use in my Aeldari mixed list.

I think the reason you don't see more warlocks is because the main power you're looking for is conceal, usually, and you can only cast it once, doesn't seem like there is a great reason to take a high number of warlocks.

peteralmo wrote:
I think the reason you don't see more warlocks is because the main power you're looking for is conceal, usually, and you can only cast it once, doesn't seem like there is a great reason to take a high number of warlocks.

Especially when running Hemlocks !

Dionysodorus wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

So basically you want a new unit not a wraithlord which is what you keep describing above? A basic dreadnought if it takes 2 heavy weapons pretty much sucks in close combat, not so the wraithlord. The wraithlord just does it better than the dread. So no delivery system? Most people playing with dreads are not using drop pods, in fact, I haven't even seen a drop pod used.

This is a very weird post. I'll be honest, this really just reads like defensive scrambling to distract from the fact that you were wrong in basically every way. But anyway:

1) I can't really make heads or tails of your first sentence. I didn't express anything like this. The only part of my post that maybe this is a response to is when I pointed out that dreadnoughts have two delivery options, so you were wrong when you said they didn't.

2) I addressed the heavy weapons thing in my post. You're just being disingenuous. A Wraithlord can take two heavy weapons on top of its fists. A Dreadnought can take a twin lascannon or a twin heavy bolter or a twin autocannon or an assault cannon (which is as good as two of another weapon) in addition to a fist, and it gets an extra attack at a higher strength relative to the WK. The WK can take a Ghostglaive, which improves its AP and damage slightly, but it's still going to be generally worse than a Dreadnought with a single fist. And as I explained, it's purely an advantage for the Dreadnought that it can choose to replace its fist with another gun. You can, if you want, bring a Dreadnought armed with 4 lascannons or autocannons or heavy bolters, which is twice as shooty as a Wraithlord can possibly get.

3) Yeah, drop pods aren't great right now. This doesn't seem to be relevant -- this is the sort of thing that makes your post read as an attempt to distract. That said, I've definitely seen Chaos players using their version of drop pods for Dreadnoughts, and I've seen Stormravens used to deliver them.

Boy, you are just rambling incoherently here.

The comparison is with dreadnoughts and wraithlords.....not drop pod delivered dreads, or stormraven delivered dreads, or contemptor dreads, or any other unit you added. A dreadnought is a unit, it has options to switch out weapons, but it cannot take 2 hvy weapons and be a melee unit too. The wraithlord can. It also can take 2 flamers in addition to 2 heavy weapons. It;s just better than the dreadnought, period. If you want to keep adding hyperbole, be my guest.

 bullyboy wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

So basically you want a new unit not a wraithlord which is what you keep describing above? A basic dreadnought if it takes 2 heavy weapons pretty much sucks in close combat, not so the wraithlord. The wraithlord just does it better than the dread. So no delivery system? Most people playing with dreads are not using drop pods, in fact, I haven't even seen a drop pod used.

This is a very weird post. I'll be honest, this really just reads like defensive scrambling to distract from the fact that you were wrong in basically every way. But anyway:

1) I can't really make heads or tails of your first sentence. I didn't express anything like this. The only part of my post that maybe this is a response to is when I pointed out that dreadnoughts have two delivery options, so you were wrong when you said they didn't.

2) I addressed the heavy weapons thing in my post. You're just being disingenuous. A Wraithlord can take two heavy weapons on top of its fists. A Dreadnought can take a twin lascannon or a twin heavy bolter or a twin autocannon or an assault cannon (which is as good as two of another weapon) in addition to a fist, and it gets an extra attack at a higher strength relative to the WK. The WK can take a Ghostglaive, which improves its AP and damage slightly, but it's still going to be generally worse than a Dreadnought with a single fist. And as I explained, it's purely an advantage for the Dreadnought that it can choose to replace its fist with another gun. You can, if you want, bring a Dreadnought armed with 4 lascannons or autocannons or heavy bolters, which is twice as shooty as a Wraithlord can possibly get.

3) Yeah, drop pods aren't great right now. This doesn't seem to be relevant -- this is the sort of thing that makes your post read as an attempt to distract. That said, I've definitely seen Chaos players using their version of drop pods for Dreadnoughts, and I've seen Stormravens used to deliver them.

Boy, you are just rambling incoherently here.

The comparison is with dreadnoughts and wraithlords.....not drop pod delivered dreads, or stormraven delivered dreads, or contemptor dreads, or any other unit you added. A dreadnought is a unit, it has options to switch out weapons, but it cannot take 2 hvy weapons and be a melee unit too. The wraithlord can. It also can take 2 flamers in addition to 2 heavy weapons. It;s just better than the dreadnought, period. If you want to keep adding hyperbole, be my guest.

I understand what you're trying to say here, but it doesn't hold up on the tabletop. Context is everything, things looking better on paper doesn't always translate. Take my poor NY Giants for example, on paper they should be a top 8 team, alas they are 0-3. For context the community points out three things, drop pods, stormravens, and guilliman, these all give dreadnoughts huge buffs and flexibility. Drop pods and Stormravens drop the dreadnoughts off in your opponents face, right where you want them; Guilliman gives them re rolls to everything so plopping them down immobile in a gunline also becomes viable. A Wraithlord has none of these options, it literally has one option, and it's the worst one, start from your deployment zone, and start lumbering slowly toward the opponent. Yes, if dreadnoughts suffered the same fate, the Wraithlord would be better, but it it doesn't, and as far as I can tell, no one is taking a dreadnought in their list, and deploying it with the intent of slowly moving it up the board.

peteralmo wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

So basically you want a new unit not a wraithlord which is what you keep describing above? A basic dreadnought if it takes 2 heavy weapons pretty much sucks in close combat, not so the wraithlord. The wraithlord just does it better than the dread. So no delivery system? Most people playing with dreads are not using drop pods, in fact, I haven't even seen a drop pod used.

This is a very weird post. I'll be honest, this really just reads like defensive scrambling to distract from the fact that you were wrong in basically every way. But anyway:

1) I can't really make heads or tails of your first sentence. I didn't express anything like this. The only part of my post that maybe this is a response to is when I pointed out that dreadnoughts have two delivery options, so you were wrong when you said they didn't.

2) I addressed the heavy weapons thing in my post. You're just being disingenuous. A Wraithlord can take two heavy weapons on top of its fists. A Dreadnought can take a twin lascannon or a twin heavy bolter or a twin autocannon or an assault cannon (which is as good as two of another weapon) in addition to a fist, and it gets an extra attack at a higher strength relative to the WK. The WK can take a Ghostglaive, which improves its AP and damage slightly, but it's still going to be generally worse than a Dreadnought with a single fist. And as I explained, it's purely an advantage for the Dreadnought that it can choose to replace its fist with another gun. You can, if you want, bring a Dreadnought armed with 4 lascannons or autocannons or heavy bolters, which is twice as shooty as a Wraithlord can possibly get.

3) Yeah, drop pods aren't great right now. This doesn't seem to be relevant -- this is the sort of thing that makes your post read as an attempt to distract. That said, I've definitely seen Chaos players using their version of drop pods for Dreadnoughts, and I've seen Stormravens used to deliver them.

Boy, you are just rambling incoherently here.

The comparison is with dreadnoughts and wraithlords.....not drop pod delivered dreads, or stormraven delivered dreads, or contemptor dreads, or any other unit you added. A dreadnought is a unit, it has options to switch out weapons, but it cannot take 2 hvy weapons and be a melee unit too. The wraithlord can. It also can take 2 flamers in addition to 2 heavy weapons. It;s just better than the dreadnought, period. If you want to keep adding hyperbole, be my guest.

I understand what you're trying to say here, but it doesn't hold up on the tabletop. Context is everything, things looking better on paper doesn't always translate. Take my poor NY Giants for example, on paper they should be a top 8 team, alas they are 0-3. For context the community points out three things, drop pods, stormravens, and guilliman, these all give dreadnoughts huge buffs and flexibility. Drop pods and Stormravens drop the dreadnoughts off in your opponents face, right where you want them; Guilliman gives them re rolls to everything so plopping them down immobile in a gunline also becomes viable. A Wraithlord has none of these options, it literally has one option, and it's the worst one, start from your deployment zone, and start lumbering slowly toward the opponent. Yes, if dreadnoughts suffered the same fate, the Wraithlord would be better, but it it doesn't, and as far as I can tell, no one is taking a dreadnought in their list, and deploying it with the intent of slowly moving it up the board.

Wait, how can you add these for SM and not Eldar. Granted we don't have a delivery system but as I mentioned before, I haven't seen anyone playing with drop pods much in 8th. As for guilleman, the Eldar have Farseers that can cast Guide...same thing, and a lot cheaper. heck, put Doom on the target and I really have a true Guilleman stand in. As for lumbering toward your opponent, they do move 8" a turn when healthy, 2" further than a dread.
In an army with a few wave serpents loaded with WG, a footslogging axe/shield WG and backed up by WLs, they are not always a target priority.

And no, your Giants aren't even a top 8 team on paper

 bullyboy wrote:

peteralmo wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:



And no, your Giants aren't even a top 8 team on paper

GAH!!!!! Now I know you're lying!!!!!!!!!!!!

 bullyboy wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

2) I addressed the heavy weapons thing in my post. You're just being disingenuous. A Wraithlord can take two heavy weapons on top of its fists. A Dreadnought can take a twin lascannon or a twin heavy bolter or a twin autocannon or an assault cannon (which is as good as two of another weapon) in addition to a fist, and it gets an extra attack at a higher strength relative to the WK. The WK can take a Ghostglaive, which improves its AP and damage slightly, but it's still going to be generally worse than a Dreadnought with a single fist. And as I explained, it's purely an advantage for the Dreadnought that it can choose to replace its fist with another gun. You can, if you want, bring a Dreadnought armed with 4 lascannons or autocannons or heavy bolters, which is twice as shooty as a Wraithlord can possibly get.

The comparison is with dreadnoughts and wraithlords.....not drop pod delivered dreads, or stormraven delivered dreads, or contemptor dreads, or any other unit you added. A dreadnought is a unit, it has options to switch out weapons, but it cannot take 2 hvy weapons and be a melee unit too. The wraithlord can. It also can take 2 flamers in addition to 2 heavy weapons. It;s just better than the dreadnought, period. If you want to keep adding hyperbole, be my guest.

Yes, it can. He even explained exactly how and why.

The dreadnought can take two heavy weapons and be a melee unit too.

What it can't do is take four heavy weapons and be a melee unit too.

Wraithlord can take two heavy weapons and be a melee unit, it will always be a melee unit.

Wraithlord can't four heavy weapons at all ever.

 ph34r wrote:
The dreadnought can take two heavy weapons and be a melee unit too.

What it can't do is take four heavy weapons and be a melee unit too.

Wraithlord can take two heavy weapons and be a melee unit, it will always be a melee unit.

Wraithlord can't four heavy weapons at all ever.

And here's the crux of the situation, at 4 attacks base I think the dreadnought variants are just scraping by as qualifying "melee units." The Wraithlord only has 3 attacks base for some inexplicable reason, and really isn't a dedicated potent melee unit in my opinion.

I agree with Peteralmo's earlier point that any comparison needs to be in context.

Delivery options for the Dreadnought is fair comparison, as marine dreadnought can be in Melee on turn 2. And it's not uncommon for Dreadnoughts to ride up in a StormRaven.

Our Eldar wraithlord does not have that option and can only footslog it, thereby making it more vulnerable compared to the SM dreadnought in that context

Played Shining Spears today for the first time. Wow! Play them aggressive and discovered their shooting is very good and the assault is much better than I expected. Cast Fortune once which made them too undesirable for my opponent to shoot at.

Until one Exocrine kills the entire squad in one shooting phase.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Until one Exocrine kills the entire squad in one shooting phase.

Seems unlikely with Fortune on.

Shining Spectres also happen to be a prime unit for Conceal support, so although un-buffed they are quite vulnerable to Exocrine, by the time they are concealed and possibly Fortune on them, and factoring in their 4++ save, they are not too vulnerable.

Exocrines also make a prime target for Wraithfighters and Dark Reapers to target turn 1. If it does survive, it's BS should have been knocked down a peg or 2, combine with Conceal, I would not be too worried.

It does create an interesting question. So many units could clearly benefit from conceal, alas, you only get one per turn, and in a list fielding a full size unit of dark reapers with yvraine, the reapers have to be the priority for conceal in my opinion.

Drake003 wrote:
Shining Spectres also happen to be a prime unit for Conceal support, so although un-buffed they are quite vulnerable to Exocrine, by the time they are concealed and possibly Fortune on them, and factoring in their 4++ save, they are not too vulnerable.

Exocrines also make a prime target for Wraithfighters and Dark Reapers to target turn 1. If it does survive, it's BS should have been knocked down a peg or 2, combine with Conceal, I would not be too worried.

Shiny Specters? You mean Shiny spears or Shadow Specters?

Either way, both are very good and very popular, and normally a warlock on bike joins them.

I meant Shining Spears but then I mixed them up in my head, just too similar sounding. I tend to run my Shining Spears in support of my Shadow Spectres and keep a Hemlock nearby for Conceal.

It is a good question for where to send the Conceal support. Against less mobile armies I tend to either Pounce on the biggest threat with my Hemlocks if it is worth it, otherwise use turn 1 to set up a big turn 2.

I for one went off Dark Reapers after I found them simply too vulnerable for their points investment and not making their points back before they die. As a relatively slow unit, they are not worth much in respect of capturing objectives therefore their role boils down to just killing things: I prefer Hemlocks for that, which also happen to be psykers.

Drake003 wrote:
I meant Shining Spears but then I mixed them up in my head, just too similar sounding. I tend to run my Shining Spears in support of my Shadow Spectres and keep a Hemlock nearby for Conceal.

It is a good question for where to send the Conceal support. Against less mobile armies I tend to either Pounce on the biggest threat with my Hemlocks if it is worth it, otherwise use turn 1 to set up a big turn 2.

I for one went off Dark Reapers after I found them simply too vulnerable for their points investment and not making their points back before they die. As a relatively slow unit, they are not worth much in respect of capturing objectives therefore their role boils down to just killing things: I prefer Hemlocks for that, which also happen to be psykers.

You put Dark Reapers in cover and call it a day, dont move them, the 2+ save is amazing. And if you have enough Threat up front (Shadow Specters, Wave Serpents with things inside, Hemlocks, etc..) Dark Reapers are not a large target. Its about threat overload, if you dont have anything threatening then yeah they will pick off w/e is the easiest instead of what you want them to shoot at.

I have the threats, just Reapers tend to be the easiest to deal with. Spectres come with -1 to hit as standard and can jump from cover to cover so tougher than Reapers. D-Scythes are in WaveSerpent so high priority but toughner nut to crack. Hemlock is hardier than it first looks l, with -1 or -2 to hit and really need heavy weapons to take it down which then miss more often than hit.

I also tend to mostly play vs SM with 2 StormTalons, and AM with good mix of tanks, artillery and infantry, so both have the tools to attack them turn 1/turn2. Hiding them in WaveSerpent helps ensure you get 1 good turn out of them before they die, but they don't last long after that.

I have seen 1 person use a Fortification to deploy them in which helps, though they can't benefit from WotP.

Will see how things pan out post Codex

Quick question as I'm just taking a quick look through the BRB. "A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in a turn." Page 178. This reads to me as saying a single farseer who gets to cast two psychic powers a turn cannot cast guide twice, that's pretty obvious. But it also reads as saying that if you have two farseers they can each cast guide once per turn. Have I just been imagining that only one of each psychic power, other than smite, can be cast per turn? Was that errata'd somewhere? Or can you have as many conceals as you have warlocks?

It is mentioned in the Matched Play section. Under Matched Play each psychic power can only be attempted once per turn per army. So you cannot attempt to cast Conceal more than once, even if the first attempt did not succeed by another psyker. This restriction does not apply to Smite.

Yeah, that's where it is. Figured I was not remembering incorrectly. And again, a pretty huge blow to eldar to be honest. Conceal, Doom, and Guide were a big part of the lubricant that fueled the Eldar machine in the past.

Drake003 wrote:
I have the threats, just Reapers tend to be the easiest to deal with. Spectres come with -1 to hit as standard and can jump from cover to cover so tougher than Reapers. D-Scythes are in WaveSerpent so high priority but toughner nut to crack. Hemlock is hardier than it first looks l, with -1 or -2 to hit and really need heavy weapons to take it down which then miss more often than hit.

I also tend to mostly play vs SM with 2 StormTalons, and AM with good mix of tanks, artillery and infantry, so both have the tools to attack them turn 1/turn2. Hiding them in WaveSerpent helps ensure you get 1 good turn out of them before they die, but they don't last long after that.

I have seen 1 person use a Fortification to deploy them in which helps, though they can't benefit from WotP.

Will see how things pan out post Codex

The your local is scared of them, if so dont take them and just take firedragons or something else.

Yeh, it's a problem. Eldar units are all priced as if they get the same benefits as they used to in 7th, mostly from psychic buffs. But then GW made it so that you can only use the buff once per turn, without correcting the points costs.

Niiru wrote:
Yeh, it's a problem. Eldar units are all priced as if they get the same benefits as they used to in 7th, mostly from psychic buffs. But then GW made it so that you can only use the buff once per turn, without correcting the points costs.

In anticipation of the codex I was looking over the index as compared to the existing codices, and I can't really tell what they were thinking when pricing a lot of this stuff. I feel like a lot of the infantry is basically paying a Wave Serpent tax already -- it's not like Howling Banshees are even close to appropriately priced absent a transport -- but even so there's a lot of weird stuff. Huge swathes of the index just don't make much sense compared to similar units elsewhere. Warlocks are just worse Astropaths and cost more than twice as much. Rangers are three times as expensive as Ratlings in return for being slightly more durable. God only knows what they were thinking with Windriders, Dire Avengers, Storm Guardians, and Support Batteries. Striking Scorpions are more expensive than Vanguard Veterans with jump packs and are slower and have worse wargear options, though they do get some bad special rules (plus no one builds Vanguard Veterans like this). It's a little hard to compare Swooping Hawks or Warp Spiders to anything else directly but surely every Eldar player would trade them for 11 point SoB Seraphim in a second -- Spiders are twice as expensive. And then all the grav tanks are pretty embarrassing.