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ScarVet101 wrote:
I don't remember this being an issue when characters were hiding in units (7th and back). If anything characters are more vulnerable now.

Some units that are characters could not join units in 7th and earlier (DP, RG, assassins)

Characters did not provide aura buffs to multiple units.

It also seems that you forgot about deathstars, there were plenty of times where characters (especially psykers) hid in durable units to buff those units. This was a problem in 7th and prior. You could also focus down a non-deathstar with a character in it to kill the character, now you might need to kill whole armies to damage the character.

I don't think it is a huge issue, just that the interaction based on wounds is a bit wonky, as it the interaction where units 48" away from a character can provide a screen making a character unable to be targeted.

Breng77 wrote:

ScarVet101 wrote:
I don't remember this being an issue when characters were hiding in units (7th and back). If anything characters are more vulnerable now.

Some units that are characters could not join units in 7th and earlier (DP, RG, assassins)

Characters did not provide aura buffs to multiple units.

It also seems that you forgot about deathstars, there were plenty of times where characters (especially psykers) hid in durable units to buff those units. This was a problem in 7th and prior. You could also focus down a non-deathstar with a character in it to kill the character, now you might need to kill whole armies to damage the character.

I don't think it is a huge issue, just that the interaction based on wounds is a bit wonky, as it the interaction where units 48" away from a character can provide a screen making a character unable to be targeted.

My point being that the current set up actually eliminates most of those issues while actual making characters more vulnerable.

It doesn't eliminate Characters that previously could be targeted now being immune. Assassins, Rowboat, Daemon Princes

It doesn't eliminate that those characters provide aura buffs etc.

I highly disagree that characters are more vunerable now with the exception of those hiding in deathstars, they are safer than ever.

The only thing it does is eliminate singular super unit deathstars.

Overly complicated and unneeded. Just make it so that characters can be targeted without being the the closest if they are not within 3" of another non-character, non-vehicle and non-monster unit.

And remove Character from Assassins.

So you want to make assassins basically useless?

Okay, maybe the Vindicare and Culexus would still be useful. They have extra defenses. But you'd never see an Eversor again.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So you want to make assassins basically useless?

Okay, maybe the Vindicare and Culexus would still be useful. They have extra defenses. But you'd never see an Eversor again.

And you want to have a list that literally forces the opponent to shoot only who you want, only hitting on 6+?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So you want to make assassins basically useless?

Okay, maybe the Vindicare and Culexus would still be useful. They have extra defenses. But you'd never see an Eversor again.

And you want to have a list that literally forces the opponent to shoot only who you want, only hitting on 6+?

Maneuver around to shoot other assassins/characters. Deep Strike. Snipers. Close Combat. There are ways to deal with it.

In addition, removing the character doesn't ACTUALLY fix that! Just have an all-character army and a Culexus, and have the Culexus out front.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Overly complicated and unneeded. Just make it so that characters can be targeted without being the the closest if they are not within 3" of another non-character, non-vehicle and non-monster unit.

And remove Character from Assassins.

It isn't needed it would just be more elegant. That said, in your solution 3" is too little, no need to include non-vehicle or non-monster (really is it easier to pick out Guilimann next to 6 dreads, or 6 tactical marines). If you make in non-character then there is no reason to remove character from assassins as then they work as intended, they can hide amongst chaff but cannot be an army unto themselves that dictates opponents shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So you want to make assassins basically useless?

Okay, maybe the Vindicare and Culexus would still be useful. They have extra defenses. But you'd never see an Eversor again.

And you want to have a list that literally forces the opponent to shoot only who you want, only hitting on 6+?

Maneuver around to shoot other assassins/characters. Deep Strike. Snipers. Close Combat. There are ways to deal with it.

In addition, removing the character doesn't ACTUALLY fix that! Just have an all-character army and a Culexus, and have the Culexus out front.

Actually with his fix removing character from assassins causes this exact thing to happen. If the screening models need be non-character, and we remove character from the Culexus it then becomes able to screen for all other characters.

Something to consider: Some characters are intentionally designed to screen for other characters. I know we all have assassins on the brain, but think of the court of the archon units. Sslyth, lhameans, medusae, and ur ghuls are all meant to stand in front of your archon and die one by one before your opponent is allowed to take a shot at the head honcho.

Requiring screening units to be characters completely removes the courtiers' ability to do this. So you either have to introduce a "bodyguard" rule to allow them to screen again, or else you have to rework those units from the ground up to turn them into multi-model non-character units again.

I imagine inquisitorial units are in a similar boat.

Are we sure about that characters screening characters is a bad thing in general? Or are we making broad changes to address a specific (Culexus-related) problem?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Something to consider: Some characters are intentionally designed to screen for other characters. I know we all have assassins on the brain, but think of the court of the archon units. Sslyth, lhameans, medusae, and ur ghuls are all meant to stand in front of your archon and die one by one before your opponent is allowed to take a shot at the head honcho.

Requiring screening units to be characters completely removes the courtiers' ability to do this. So you either have to introduce a "bodyguard" rule to allow them to screen again, or else you have to rework those units from the ground up to turn them into multi-model non-character units again.

I imagine inquisitorial units are in a similar boat.

Are we sure about that characters screening characters is a bad thing in general? Or are we making broad changes to address a specific (Culexus-related) problem?

Sslyth Literally already have a body guard rule, all you would need to do is extend it to the other models. I also disagree that all those units are meant to stand infront of archons and die. I view the court more as an elite fighting retinue than a simple set of bodyguards. I mean literally they are too expensive and fragile to make a great screen anyway. Also allowing them to screen for the archon also means they screen for any other characters, as opposed to the Sslyth rule which allows him to protect specifically the archon. I mean in theory you could have Archons screening for other archons using their 2++ save if you allow it for characters.

I think having characters screening characters is a bad thing in general. If they are meant to leap infront of attacks to protect their commander give them a rule to do so. Otherwise it is bad from a fluff sense for a majority of in game characters, and allows you too much to ability to dictate what your opponent can shoot at.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Overly complicated and unneeded. Just make it so that characters can be targeted without being the the closest if they are not within 3" of another non-character, non-vehicle and non-monster unit.

And remove Character from Assassins.

Not sure on the removing Character from Assassins, but as someone who runs up against what my (Daemon-spawning) brother calls 'The Eternal Swarm', where he parks his summoners at the back, quite a distance from anything else, but behind the swarms of Daemonettes, I think that 3" or maybe 6" is an acceptable limit. If they aren't within that range of a non-character, they don't get protection from it. I know that some of the meta says that it's because the unit is too focused on the close unit, but when my Shadowsword can't target Ghazgul or Shadowsun because they're on the other side of a pack of baseline cannonfodder, hanging out just close enough to use their auras, that makes me irritated, because I have Heavy Flamers and Lascannons for those, but my big gun doesn't really hurt mobs.

And back to 'The Eternal Swarm', if my Shadowsword/Doomhammer/Baneblade with a gun higher up than the heads of the infantry, and the ability to outright fire at any target, and notably able to fire WHILE IN MELEE, with the main gun being only allowed to target models not within 1", I ought to be able to shoot a dude standing out in the open exactly 12" from my hull (Close enough to send summons straight into the grinder).

IMO the simpler way to fix the problem is to go back to the old system of having characters actually join a unit (and, in most cases, limit the buffs to that unit). You accomplish the same goal of preventing characters from being immediately sniped out, but you put a limit on how much protection a character can get. Once your supply of bodyguards is gone your character is now vulnerable. And it also fixes things like the stupidity with assassins. If you build your army around a bunch of characters your opponent can still pick who they get to shoot, unless you blob everyone up into a single unit that can still be shot at directly. Effective use of characters is limited to supporting conventional units, not exploiting poorly-written shooting mechanics.