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If you can't stop your pdf from rotating and never heard of ctrl+f then yes, physical books are indeed better.

Its a company. A publically traded one, at that.

Stop expecting or hoping that they will do things that don't maximise profits.

Why would they create a product and give it away for free? The only reason companies do that is for marketing purposes or to gain market share.

E.g. have this free Coke Zero Sugar.. you weren'tt going to buy one but you will drink a freebie... you might like it and then buy some more instead of drinking that evil water stuff.

A book of supplemental, non-essential rules for a wargame you are already heavily invested in with both your money and time is not going to be given away for free.

 Silentz wrote:
Its a company. A publically traded one, at that.

Stop expecting or hoping that they will do things that don't maximise profits.

Why would they create a product and give it away for free? The only reason companies do that is for marketing purposes or to gain market share.

E.g. have this free Coke Zero Sugar.. you weren'tt going to buy one but you will drink a freebie... you might like it and then buy some more instead of drinking that evil water stuff.

A book of supplemental, non-essential rules for a wargame you are already heavily invested in with both your money and time is not going to be given away for free.

Shouldn't FAQs and Erratas be paid then? Should we stop expecting or hoping they'll continue to be free? I mean surely they could charge us a dollar or two, or just not do the work at all and wait for the next edition to make any changes, right?

Not really, as they are errors or corrections to an existing paid product. You're being deliberately obtuse.

 Silentz wrote:
Not really, as they are errors or corrections to an existing paid product. You're being deliberately obtuse.

So is CA. Its primary value is fixing the rules and point costs that GW screwed up the first time.

 combatcotton wrote:
If you can't stop your pdf from rotating and never heard of ctrl+f then yes, physical books are indeed better.

Not my devices as I don't bother with them but no-one I know seems to have any idea how to do it be it a phone or a tablet so its very annoying when they are messing about with it. Even worse are phones and people trying to squint at a tiny screen at something they can't find.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
Not really, as they are errors or corrections to an existing paid product. You're being deliberately obtuse.

So is CA. Its primary value is fixing the rules and point costs that GW screwed up the first time.

No it isn't. That statement is false.

Although I have yet to see the full contents, I understand that it has:
Apoc rules
planetary invasion rules
More guidance for playing matched play/competitive games
New missions for matched, open and narrative play
Some additional rules for armies that have yet to see a codex to give them a short-term boost
Points adjustments

i would not say that the book's "primary value" is "fixing things that have been screwed up".

If it cost about 25$ i am ok with it.

Its always on Piiiiiiiirate Bay!

 Mr Morden wrote:

 combatcotton wrote:
If you can't stop your pdf from rotating and never heard of ctrl+f then yes, physical books are indeed better.

Not my devices as I don't bother with them but no-one I know seems to have any idea how to do it be it a phone or a tablet so its very annoying when they are messing about with it. Even worse are phones and people trying to squint at a tiny screen at something they can't find.

The point of devices being more difficult to work with is that they are often in someone's pocket or locked when a rule needs to be looked up, or the PDF isn't even opened yet. You can ctrl+f all day, but by the time you've pulled out the device, unlocked it, opened the correct pdf and start typing, I have already grabbed my book (which was right next to my dice and stuff) and opened straight to the correct page for the rule and am half way through reading it.
I have tested this time and again. I have yet to be beaten to a rule by someone using a device. Having a book is just more convenient (and a courtesy to your opponent)

I am not saying that if you prefer the PDF that you are wrong, I am just advocating that every rule is in print form somehow (preferable in as few places as possible).

-

Coming from a group which uses digital stuff a lot --- it's not faster...at all. More convenient from a storage perspective? Sure. I'd even bite if it was cheaper (as it should be, since you're not purchasing ANY materials at all and their overhead cost on a digital item is nearly zip), etc. But for easy of use, nothing has beat a normal rulebook yet. Perhaps when people all start wearing more smartglasses and you can rapidly voice pages etc...sure?

I've gone one better. I've done my entire Eldar Index on two double-sided pages. All stats, all weapons/wargear, all spells and special rules. Laminated and that's all I even need to take. I'll update it and reprint it when the codex comes out. I keep the book on hand in case someone wants to read an entry, but for in-game use? Quick reference sheet all day.

As a long-time AoS player (from day 1), I guarantee the Chapter Approved not a compilation of FAQs nor a bare-bones supplement. It will likely be similar to the General's Handbook for AoS. 200+ pages of Open, Narrative, and Matched Play rules, missions, stratagems, armies, campaigns, etc. In short, tons of content.

It absolutely costs GW money to produce these supplements and should cost money to buy them as well. I would remind those that think this or that "should be free", that the Core Rules and all FAQs are free to download as pdf's. If that's not good enough for you, well, your expectations are unrealistic and more than a bit selfish and petty. GW doesn't 'owe' you free gaming supplements. Find one of those games with all those free rules, and free supplements, and free campaigns we'll no doubt hear about in this thread.

At any rate, I expect it will cost $25-35, and from my experiences with the General's Handbook, it will likely be well worth it for most players.

 Melissia wrote:
Rules changes should be free. This isn't a video game, we shouldn't have to pay for bug-fix patches.

Agreed. But keep in mind this is the company that charged people to buy their catalogues. If you're going to charge me for 'fixes' to the rules, you better damn well fix the rules.

I vote no, not because I wouldn't like the free product, but because I think GW would be less motivated to stay so aggressively on top of updates without the hope of some profit.

Which I would not personally hold against them.

If it's more or less a giant errata, then yes it should be free. I've already bought the rulebooks, so why should I pay for an update to make them "legal"? However, if it is more along the lines of complete rules then it's probably worth some money.

No, I think a low-price (£20~) product would be fine. Lots of scenarios and nice little gaming extras would well be worth the price. Remember, it is not exclusively for points or balancing.

That said, I do think they should have copied the AOS model and had all datasheets available for free on their website. Still sell the Indexes as a convenience, but give the option for those not requiring it.

 Silentz wrote:
No it isn't. That statement is false.

Although I have yet to see the full contents, I understand that it has:
Apoc rules
planetary invasion rules
More guidance for playing matched play/competitive games
New missions for matched, open and narrative play
Some additional rules for armies that have yet to see a codex to give them a short-term boost
Points adjustments

i would not say that the book's "primary value" is "fixing things that have been screwed up".

I think you're just proving my point here.

Apocalypse is not a game, and doesn't need rules. Just put a bunch of models on the table and then put them away, it's the exact same experience as an Apocalypse "game". 40k does not work at that scale, and any rules for trying to do so are wasted paper.

Planetary invasion rules could be interesting, but GW has already published rules that would still work fine in 8th edition and their most recent attempt at doing this was just a terrible version of the old 5th edition rules. I have very little faith that this will be anything but a waste of paper.

Guidance for playing games is in the "fixing a defective product" category. This is only necessary if the printed rules are not adequate.

New missions are legitimate new content, but kind of redundant when there are so many player-made alternatives available for free. I'm not going to complain if they're thrown in as a nice bonus, but there's zero reason to pay for them.

Additional rules and point adjustments are also in the "fixing a defective product" category. This is stuff that should have been in the original version of the rules, and it's ridiculous to expect people to pay money for content that should have been included on release day.

So no, I'm not really impressed by this list of supposed "content" that comes along with the balance fixes. At best it's the kind of thing which might be suitable for a blog post or thrown in with a campaign book (remember when GW still did these and they didn't suck?). It's unlikely to add much value to the average player's experience, and would probably sell very few copies as a separate product. The vast majority of the value is going to be coming from the point cost adjustments and other balance changes, which are only necessary because GW failed to get it right the first time. And so it feels much less like a legitimate product and more like a weak attempt to pad the page count of the errata document and justify charging money for it.

Hopefully it includes rules for cities of death. Really enjoyed that older supplement. Had a bit more of a Stalingrad feel to it.

If it is like the Generals Handbook I would be happy enough to drop £20 on it, provided it is an annual release and not every other month.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You say this as if literally everyone has to buy it. Have everyone in your group chip in for a communal copy, or just don't buy it.

GW don't owe you anything, if you don't like it, don't buy it.

Gw owes us a working game because we PAID for it, they didn't give the indexes away we bought them with money.

Asking people to pay for things they fekked up in the first place is idiotic.

Didn't vote as I didn't agree with any of the options. As others have stated, I think that rules changes should be freely available. I say this to mean the following:

- Changes to existing Units and/or Weapons.
- Changes to the Point or Power cost of Units and/or Weapons.
- Changes to fundamental Rules of the Game, such as an adjustment of the Fly rule.

The reasoning on this is that these things are either something you have already paid for (the Core Rule Book), or are things that would be changed on the unit's datasheet found in the box of models that you purchase. If two boxes of the same units have different datasheets, you should be able to easily find out which one is the correct one. The hardest for me to accept in this list are the point changes to units, since that's only available in your index. However, I believe that point changes for existing units and/or weapons should be freely available, as it makes purchasing the Chapter Approved book more important than purchasing the codex, which just feels so wrong. When a Codex comes out for an army, you don't need to buy the Index. If Chapter Approved looks to change a unit's points values, you should either be able to get the whole new codex from the Chapter Approved book, or else not require it at all. One book should be all you need to run a force that's found in that book.

What I don't think should be freely available would be things that "add on" to the rules. I say this to mean the following:

- New rules for Cities of Death, Death from the Skies, etc.
- New rules for units/weapons not found in a codex/index.
- Bonus Rules for making a sub-Faction, such as gaining Warlord Traits, Unit Special Rules, or Army Wide Special Rules for have an All-Primaris army.
- Suggestions for running Campaings, Apocalypse Games, or Tournaments.

These things are additions and supplements to your gaming experience. New Chapter Tactics for different Space Marine armies should be found in the purchasable Chapter Approved book. Adjusted Chapter Tactics for Ultramarines should NOT be found in the purchasable Chapter Approved book.

Given that a substantial number of armies are stuck with Index only forces they should at lest put in something for those not favoured with a codex and all the many points reductions, boosts and additional options.

The Age of Sigmar GH 2017 did some of this but sadly not for everyone.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
No it isn't. That statement is false.

Although I have yet to see the full contents, I understand that it has:
Apoc rules
planetary invasion rules
More guidance for playing matched play/competitive games
New missions for matched, open and narrative play
Some additional rules for armies that have yet to see a codex to give them a short-term boost
Points adjustments

i would not say that the book's "primary value" is "fixing things that have been screwed up".

I think you're just proving my point here.

Apocalypse is not a game, and doesn't need rules. Just put a bunch of models on the table and then put them away, it's the exact same experience as an Apocalypse "game". 40k does not work at that scale, and any rules for trying to do so are wasted paper.

Planetary invasion rules could be interesting, but GW has already published rules that would still work fine in 8th edition and their most recent attempt at doing this was just a terrible version of the old 5th edition rules. I have very little faith that this will be anything but a waste of paper.

Guidance for playing games is in the "fixing a defective product" category. This is only necessary if the printed rules are not adequate.

New missions are legitimate new content, but kind of redundant when there are so many player-made alternatives available for free. I'm not going to complain if they're thrown in as a nice bonus, but there's zero reason to pay for them.

Additional rules and point adjustments are also in the "fixing a defective product" category. This is stuff that should have been in the original version of the rules, and it's ridiculous to expect people to pay money for content that should have been included on release day.

So no, I'm not really impressed by this list of supposed "content" that comes along with the balance fixes. At best it's the kind of thing which might be suitable for a blog post or thrown in with a campaign book (remember when GW still did these and they didn't suck?). It's unlikely to add much value to the average player's experience, and would probably sell very few copies as a separate product. The vast majority of the value is going to be coming from the point cost adjustments and other balance changes, which are only necessary because GW failed to get it right the first time. And so it feels much less like a legitimate product and more like a weak attempt to pad the page count of the errata document and justify charging money for it.

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with your general point, but I did want to point out one thing... as someone who has played a LOT of Apocalypse... it IS absolutely its own game. You certainly can choose to just play 'big 40k' but really that sucks, and the Apocalypse game, that came in the giant (really expensive) previous book was WAAAYYY better and almost necessary for managing games of a certain size. I don't think it needs to be another giant tomb but Apocalypse does need some specific attention.

You certainly can choose to just play 'big 40k' but really that sucks,

We played a bigish game (6000pts) and that seemed to be fine - what specifically was causing problems with 8th? Large 7th Ed games def needed streamlining but 8th seemed pretty quick

 Mr Morden wrote:

You certainly can choose to just play 'big 40k' but really that sucks,

We played a bigish game (6000pts) and that seemed to be fine - what specifically was causing problems with 8th? Large 7th Ed games def needed streamlining but 8th seemed pretty quick

8th is more killy so that certainly should make it easier, no doubt... but given how the new detachments are laid out, Apocalypse should have very specific / new battle-forged layouts, new Battlezone rules and 'sh** hits the fan' type rules. The time management and the rules for Environmental disasters were a great way to speed up a game, especially when you've been playing for 6hours and you're only on turn 2...

But fair point, in 8th 'big 40k' is probably not as problematic as it was in 7th.

I suppose this is the same company that sells £300 plastic models and then tells you you have to buy the weapons separately...

Honestly rules in general should be free, while hobby material (painting guides, modelling guides, interview articles, etc) should be bundled in physical books as paid content. If you make a good, easy to access and solid ruleset, people will flock to the miniatures without second thought. Just look at MTG, I can play perfectly well with inkjet printer-made cards on pieces of paper but I still go out and hunt down the ultra-rare expensive real cards just to have them (and of course the entire tournament scene).

And before anyone say anything about cost, a moderately competitive Modern deck right now can be close to or exceeding a grand; easily enough for someone to buy a titan or two, start a krieg army, or start a huge and entirely new plastic army.

 Melissia wrote:
If it cost 55 bucks (even 55 aud), I'm not buying it. That's a goddamn ripoff. It should just be a FAQ.

If all that it contains is 6 pages of rule revisions, then yes absolute rip off I agree.

But no doubt it will contain new rules revisions, campaign missions, narrative stuff and all sorts of pretty pictures similar to what the GH included.

Like others suggested and what I also would like to see, it would be great if the rule section is a free pdf online (possible considering they already hinted at some of the rules online) and then the book available for purchase for those wanting the rest of the background/missions etc.

How much do we know about what's going to be in it? Because the answer to OP's question very much depends on that.

The rules spoiled from it that I've seen so far are easy to find (legally) on the web, so no purchase required for those.

 Cream Tea wrote:
How much do we know about what's going to be in it? Because the answer to OP's question very much depends on that.

The rules spoiled from it that I've seen so far are easy to find (legally) on the web, so no purchase required for those.

Apart from what's in this article, not much else.

Everything else is a guess based on what they've done with AOS at this stage

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
How much do we know about what's going to be in it? Because the answer to OP's question very much depends on that.

The rules spoiled from it that I've seen so far are easy to find (legally) on the web, so no purchase required for those.

Apart from what's in this article, not much else.

Everything else is a guess based on what they've done with AOS at this stage

Yeah, that was the one I read as well. It seems to me they willingly shared some of what they considered the most important changes. As soon as the book releases, it'll all be common knowledge anyway. Some are going to want to buy it, others can borrow and read it, people will tell each other about the changes. Also, I'm not telling people to pirate it, but some will.

I don't know anything about Age of Sigmar, does it have an equivalent?