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 takonite wrote:
Doesn't really matter, just use battlescribe and GW will be releasing their own army building app soon, I think. Their painting app was of generally good quality so I have decent hope for their army builder too

I forgot about the app they are supposed to be working on. I'm holding hope that it will be good and I can be sure options will work and any changes or errors will be updated without too much hassle.

It is super easy with an Epub, Screen shot the points and print them out...now you have a reference to use while you look at the data slates. Unless you want to make things straight from a tablet which was always annoying.

Breng77 wrote:
It is super easy with an Epub, Screen shot the points and print them out...now you have a reference to use while you look at the data slates. Unless you want to make things straight from a tablet which was always annoying.

That's exactly what I was trying to do since I was at work. :(

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I just typed all of the points into a spreadsheet and then setup lookups. I type lascannon or whatever and it just fills in the points for me.

Then when the points get updated I just type the new points into the points page and all of my lists get updated.

Yeah but that doesn't help when you've just bought the codex and you're wanting to play it that day, or youre throwing together a quick army list at the store because you showed up with 1500 points but some random guy wants to play a 1,000pts instead. Or your laptop/phone dies, or you're bad with computers, or any other number of excuses for why I'd need to use the book

So you pull out your phone, go onto google docs and just tweak the unit quantities to get to the total you want.

kaotkbliss wrote:It makes sense that it would be easier to update points cost, but that's all it's easier for. any changing of stats or wargear options or anything else will still have to be done on the unit cards anyway.

*edit*
but from what I've seen in the past, they won't touch these indexes again anyway. They'll just FAQ things here and there

In the past, this is what they did with Codex changes. This time around, they said they would be updating lists and points in Chapter Approved updates. Don't know how they are doing that though, we won't find out until next month or so. They did say that they would be updating index entries etc though, so who knows.

lolman1c wrote:We all thought it was like that so they could do monthly updates to points to keep the game balanced. Turns out this was just oir hope and dreams talking.

I don't remember them ever saying they would be doing monthly updates to points. Periodic updates, yes, but they have been doing that with FAQ's and with codex releases. More important for them to get all the codices out, than doing minor updates (though they have been doing both).

Chapter Approved was always going to be the first major update and tweaking for armies (both codex and index I assume), and that was scheduled for before christmas. I believe it's coming end of November, but not sure.

Scott-S6 wrote:I just typed all of the points into a spreadsheet and then setup lookups. I type lascannon or whatever and it just fills in the points for me.

Then when the points get updated I just type the new points into the points page and all of my lists get updated.

I do all my lists on Google Sheets, as it means I can mess about with lists anywhere I am. I don't know if Sheets has the same ability as Excel to do those lookups though.. would be handy.


In the meantime, whenever there is an FAQ or errata, I go to my PDF of the index/codex and change the points values in there myself. Why wait for GW when I can do it myself? If I had the paper books I would probably use pencil, but I prefer digital as I can alter the page and it looks like it's official.

I never said they would do that... we all just hoped they would... but then the code came out like a week after the index and ruined it all.

Just use battlescribe.

They dont want point costs on Data Sheets that why.

They were thinking:

Gee, I wonder if we can get these mooks to buy these books twice?

The answer? Yep.

Tvayumat wrote:
They were thinking:

Gee, I wonder if we can get these mooks to buy these books twice?

The answer? Yep.

You're wrong in so many ways! They're bringing out chapter approved so they got us to buy thd books three times.

Tvayumat wrote:
They were thinking:

Gee, I wonder if we can get these mooks to buy these books twice?

The answer? Yep.

Only a few armies have codices so far, would you have preferred that most people be unable to play their armies in 8th for months?

If anything, it's the codices that are money grabs, not the indices.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just use battlescribe.

This. Oh how gw must hate battlescribe.

As to what they were thinking with the indexes? Money money money, lots of money, in a rich man's world. Considering they had just re-released fantasy with all free rules, so it wasn't much of a stretch.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Just use battlescribe.

This. Oh how gw must hate battlescribe.

As to what they were thinking with the indexes? Money money money, lots of money, in a rich man's world. Considering they had just re-released fantasy with all free rules, so it wasn't much of a stretch.

I don't get why they'd hate Battlescribe, pretty sure it boosts their sales as list building from the books is quite bad. They should really get around releasing that official list builder soon.

If they had required people to pay for AoS rules, few people would've bothered. Killing Fantasy meant people hated the game from the get-go, they pretty much had to beg people to try it. 40k 8th edition was generally seen as a good thing even before its release, so no need for GW to get down on their knees with that one.

Releasing codices so soon after was weird though, I think they should've waited a year or so. Lots of these codices feel a bit rushed, they don't even have a new cover illustration.

 Cream Tea wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Just use battlescribe.

This. Oh how gw must hate battlescribe.

As to what they were thinking with the indexes? Money money money, lots of money, in a rich man's world. Considering they had just re-released fantasy with all free rules, so it wasn't much of a stretch.

I don't get why they'd hate Battlescribe, pretty sure it boosts their sales as list building from the books is quite bad. They should really get around releasing that official list builder soon.

If they had required people to pay for AoS rules, few people would've bothered. Killing Fantasy meant people hated the game from the get-go, they pretty much had to beg people to try it. 40k 8th edition was generally seen as a good thing even before its release, so no need for GW to get down on their knees with that one.

Releasing codices so soon after was weird though, I think they should've waited a year or so. Lots of these codices feel a bit rushed, they don't even have a new cover illustration.

As i said, money money money. Battlescribe lets you view all the rules for free - they don't profit from that, even if it encourages sales. Their view on independant retailers is quite clear, if it's not coming to them directly its money being stolen off them. And that's when they get a 'cut'. The idea of someone getting their proprietary rules for free must absolutely burn.

I'm interested in your contention is that AoS was begging the customers to buy in, but 40k was a sure thing so they felt free to charge normal prices? Money money money. They had a chance to make a significant change to their behaviour - and they didn't. I still remember my youth when i was deep into gw and everyone around me laughed that they charged money to buy their catalogues when everyone else gave them out for free. Its all about the dollar, and gw chases it hard.

Niiru wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:I just typed all of the points into a spreadsheet and then setup lookups. I type lascannon or whatever and it just fills in the points for me.

Then when the points get updated I just type the new points into the points page and all of my lists get updated.

I do all my lists on Google Sheets, as it means I can mess about with lists anywhere I am. I don't know if Sheets has the same ability as Excel to do those lookups though.. would be handy.

Yep, example:
=vlookup(B33,AstraMilitarum!D$1:E$200,2,False)

Syntax is:
- Cell with the text you're looking up
- Range of cells with the names and points. You need to use the dollars to make that addressing absolute otherwise that range will drift as the position of the formula changes. You can reference a different tab on the sheet (as here) but not a different sheet.
- Offset, i.e. which colun in the range contains the value you want back. I have names in D and points in E so that's 2.
- is_sorted - always set this to false otherwise if you make a typo it will give you the closest which may or may not be what you wanted.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Battlescribe is cumbersome, to me, in a number of ways.

First, if you think there's an error then you have to register your info to tell them. So it's not easy to get corrections without giving up privacy.

Second, from what I can tell the print out of an army can get quite long in terms of page count. I tried a 2000 point GK army with info and it was over 10 pages. If I were to take that to an event then I'd need to print 30+ pages just for that day.

I'm sorry but battlescribe is not the answer as far as I'm concerned. It is a nice toy to use at home but not for taking an army out to play.

You can use battlescribe to build a list, then just write it out by hand (or in a spreadsheet) and print that... no need to print all the extra stuff (rules/stats/etc). If you really need those things, you can make index cards for each unit.

The enhanced versions of the indexes and codices for iPad have the points available on the page (tapping the wargear name for cost, or top left of the data sheet for unit cost).

If I didn’t have my tablet, paper would be the next usable option (bookmarks!), followed way in last by the ePub/pdf versions. The ePub forgeworld indexes are a real pita for flipping between points and unit entry, particularly as the tables in back aren’t fully ordered.

Problem is power level its too inaccurate and was never going to be adopted by the community at Large.

Gw as usual does not understand its customers and went after some mythical nonexistent player base.

hobojebus wrote:
Problem is power level its too inaccurate and was never going to be adopted by the community at Large.

Gw as usual does not understand its customers and went after some mythical nonexistent player base.

Good thing they didn't only include power level then. Also, I'm sure there's a not insignificant number of people that like the ease of adding power levels instead of points for quicker set-up.

Torga_DW wrote:

As to what they were thinking with the indexes? Money money money, lots of money, in a rich man's world. Considering they had just re-released fantasy with all free rules, so it wasn't much of a stretch.

As i said, money money money. Battlescribe lets you view all the rules for free - they don't profit from that, even if it encourages sales. Their view on independant retailers is quite clear, if it's not coming to them directly its money being stolen off them. And that's when they get a 'cut'. The idea of someone getting their proprietary rules for free must absolutely burn.

I'm interested in your contention is that AoS was begging the customers to buy in, but 40k was a sure thing so they felt free to charge normal prices? Money money money. They had a chance to make a significant change to their behaviour - and they didn't. I still remember my youth when i was deep into gw and everyone around me laughed that they charged money to buy their catalogues when everyone else gave them out for free. Its all about the dollar, and gw chases it hard.

Yeh, I remember a fair few games from my youth that gave out their rules for free. And cheap models too. They became popular for brief times. I can't remember any of their names now. And none of the games (or their companies) exist any more. Wonder why.

You want the rules updated every month. You want codices released immediately. You want constant releases of new models, with old models updated into resin/plastic/gold plated as soon as possible.

Guess what all this takes. Money money money.

Yes, GW look to make a profit. They have to. If they didn't, they and this game would have stopped existing decades ago. They aren't some global corporate conspiracy. Their profits were in a huge slump for years, and they only started coming back into decent profits in the last few months. This is probably largely because of the release of 8th Edition.

Would they have gotten more players involved if they had given the books away for free? No, probably not, because anyone who wanted to play would have been because friends played (and could borrow books from them), or they would have just gotten the rules for free online anyway. The people that bought the books are the ones who wanted to support GW and the game of 40k. Which is why it still exists.

I for one plan to buy the Eldar Codex. Maybe if they sell enough, they'll get around to releasing more plastic aspects.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:I just typed all of the points into a spreadsheet and then setup lookups. I type lascannon or whatever and it just fills in the points for me.

Then when the points get updated I just type the new points into the points page and all of my lists get updated.

I do all my lists on Google Sheets, as it means I can mess about with lists anywhere I am. I don't know if Sheets has the same ability as Excel to do those lookups though.. would be handy.

Yep, example:
=vlookup(B33,AstraMilitarum!D$1:E$200,2,False)

Syntax is:
- Cell with the text you're looking up
- Range of cells with the names and points. You need to use the dollars to make that addressing absolute otherwise that range will drift as the position of the formula changes. You can reference a different tab on the sheet (as here) but not a different sheet.
- Offset, i.e. which colun in the range contains the value you want back. I have names in D and points in E so that's 2.
- is_sorted - always set this to false otherwise if you make a typo it will give you the closest which may or may not be what you wanted.

Copying this for future reference. Will give it a go later, thanks!

GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Problem is power level its too inaccurate and was never going to be adopted by the community at Large.

Gw as usual does not understand its customers and went after some mythical nonexistent player base.

Good thing they didn't only include power level then. Also, I'm sure there's a not insignificant number of people that like the ease of adding power levels instead of points for quicker set-up.

I've never used power level as yet, but my group is old and I think we are all set in our ways of looking up points for everything haha. Plenty of players do use power level though, for quick pick-up games it's much faster. It's not as accurate, but they may tweak PL in chapter approved to balance things. Noone talks about this, everyone only expects points changes, but its just as likely they'll do power levels too.

But yeh, PL definitely gets used.

It also gives rough estimate.
for a 1800 point game I'll sometimes build a list to 90 PL and then convert in one go , less flicking back and forth. Tough by now I know the rough cost of the units I like to field.

Niiru wrote:

Torga_DW wrote:

As to what they were thinking with the indexes? Money money money, lots of money, in a rich man's world. Considering they had just re-released fantasy with all free rules, so it wasn't much of a stretch.

As i said, money money money. Battlescribe lets you view all the rules for free - they don't profit from that, even if it encourages sales. Their view on independant retailers is quite clear, if it's not coming to them directly its money being stolen off them. And that's when they get a 'cut'. The idea of someone getting their proprietary rules for free must absolutely burn.

I'm interested in your contention is that AoS was begging the customers to buy in, but 40k was a sure thing so they felt free to charge normal prices? Money money money. They had a chance to make a significant change to their behaviour - and they didn't. I still remember my youth when i was deep into gw and everyone around me laughed that they charged money to buy their catalogues when everyone else gave them out for free. Its all about the dollar, and gw chases it hard.

Yeh, I remember a fair few games from my youth that gave out their rules for free. And cheap models too. They became popular for brief times. I can't remember any of their names now. And none of the games (or their companies) exist any more. Wonder why.

You want the rules updated every month. You want codices released immediately. You want constant releases of new models, with old models updated into resin/plastic/gold plated as soon as possible.

Guess what all this takes. Money money money.

Yes, GW look to make a profit. They have to. If they didn't, they and this game would have stopped existing decades ago. They aren't some global corporate conspiracy. Their profits were in a huge slump for years, and they only started coming back into decent profits in the last few months. This is probably largely because of the release of 8th Edition.

Would they have gotten more players involved if they had given the books away for free? No, probably not, because anyone who wanted to play would have been because friends played (and could borrow books from them), or they would have just gotten the rules for free online anyway. The people that bought the books are the ones who wanted to support GW and the game of 40k. Which is why it still exists.

I for one plan to buy the Eldar Codex. Maybe if they sell enough, they'll get around to releasing more plastic aspects.

There's a big difference between chasing a profit and gouging for all you're worth, though. There comes a point where it becomes counter-productive, and was a part of *why* their profits were in a huge slump for years. As you say, why give the rules away for free when your core customers will happily pay for it? Which is why battlescribe must be a sore point for them.

I have to agree with this.

The age old entry type with all the vital statistics on one block were so much better. I mean, I can remember the profiles of guns but I can't remember the point costs of every joe and every little thingamajobber.

Then again, I do see the value in being able to handily update the point values.

I recommend picking up the battlescribe but keeping an eye on it. It's not perfect.

 Torga_DW wrote:
As i said, money money money. Battlescribe lets you view all the rules for free - they don't profit from that, even if it encourages sales. Their view on independant retailers is quite clear, if it's not coming to them directly its money being stolen off them. And that's when they get a 'cut'. The idea of someone getting their proprietary rules for free must absolutely burn.

I'm interested in your contention is that AoS was begging the customers to buy in, but 40k was a sure thing so they felt free to charge normal prices? Money money money. They had a chance to make a significant change to their behaviour - and they didn't. I still remember my youth when i was deep into gw and everyone around me laughed that they charged money to buy their catalogues when everyone else gave them out for free. Its all about the dollar, and gw chases it hard.

Of course it's about money, but there's nothing wrong with that. GW have to bring in money or they'll go bankrupt. You can argue that they're charging too much, but ultimately, they're the ones who set the prices and we're the ones who decide whether those prices are reasonable. If they're not, don't buy. Some companies decide to provide their rules for free, but you're not entitled to that. They pay people to write those rules, and they have the right to charge money for them.

There are some areas where I'm not willing to give GW my money. Lots of minis are dated and/or finecast. The 30th anniversary Primaris was bland, expensive, and wouldn't stand out in an army (not that I'd have bought it anyway, as I don't play SM). Their hobby tools are ridiculously expensive, and sometimes weird. (Dedicated mouldline remover? A knife is superior.) Their basing stuff is overcosted. I buy minis and rules from GW, and sometimes paints when I can't find the right colour in another range. You buy what you want, I'll buy what I want.

Battlescribe also doesn't include all the rules you need. Sure, you can find everything online if you want, but Battlescribe alone doesn't cut it. You'll still want army attributes, stratagems and keywords to play your models. No one I know uses Battlescribe instead of buying books, they do it in addition.

 Cream Tea wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Their hobby tools are ridiculously expensive, and sometimes weird. (Dedicated mouldline remover? A knife is superior.) Their basing stuff is overcosted. I buy minis and rules from GW, and sometimes paints when I can't find the right colour in another range. You buy what you want, I'll buy what I want

Supposedly people have used the mouldline remover and it's actually good for what it does, better than a knife at the equivalent job. It's definitely a luxury item, but not as insane as it seems.

 necrontyrOG wrote:
They did that so they can adjust points values over time without changing the main rules for the units and having to reprint books. A simple download page or Chapter Approved book can adjust the codex/index without calling for a reprint.

How would printing point costs next to the unit entries stop them from doing that? I don't understand what the difference is.