Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Bharring wrote:
<Imperial>?

Most of the <Craftworld> buffs have reasons they don't apply to the WK.

Being able to have an Alaitoc Wraithknight(which is actually pretty fluffy, at least from the way "Path of the Outcast" was set up mind you) with a -1 to Hit rolls made against it is nothing to sneeze at. Same thing with an Ulthwe Wraithknight being able to potentially negate any/all Wounds tossed onto it or doubling the number of Wounds you have thanks to Stoic Endurance and Iyanden.

I don't have the AdMech book so cannot confirm/deny whether or not the Dogmas apply to Mechanicus Knights but if they don't? That's a fairly significant difference in and of itself right there.

Additionally, there are not a crazy amount of things that immediately spring to mind that just apply to Imperium units(additionally, it's not a keyword in brackets while Craftworld is). I know Guilliman does grant a benefit and Inquisitors let you use their Leadership but that's all I can really think of at the moment.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Bharring wrote:
<Imperial>?

Most of the <Craftworld> buffs have reasons they don't apply to the WK.

Being able to have an Alaitoc Wraithknight(which is actually pretty fluffy, at least from the way "Path of the Outcast" was set up mind you) with a -1 to Hit rolls made against it is nothing to sneeze at. Same thing with an Ulthwe Wraithknight being able to potentially negate any/all Wounds tossed onto it or doubling the number of Wounds you have thanks to Stoic Endurance and Iyanden.

I don't have the AdMech book so cannot confirm/deny whether or not the Dogmas apply to Mechanicus Knights but if they don't? That's a fairly significant difference in and of itself right there.

Additionally, there are not a crazy amount of things that immediately spring to mind that just apply to Imperium units(additionally, it's not a keyword in brackets while Craftworld is). I know Guilliman does grant a benefit and Inquisitors let you use their Leadership but that's all I can really think of at the moment.

While -1 to hit on a wraithknight is interesting, I'm not sure it's better (or at least not significantly better) than the 5++ Invulnerable save that Imperial Knights get as standard. Add onto that the ability to repair 1 or 2 wounds a turn that Imperial Knights get (Eldar have zero ways to repair vehicles, whether they're knights or tanks), Imperial Knights are still tougher than a WK.

Iyanden trait doesn't double WK wounds (if it did, WK would actually be work taking) it just means they stay on their higher statlines for a bit longer. It's worth it, for knights, probably. But it still doesn't make Knights worth taking as they still suck away far too many points from your army list and die too fast and don't deal anywhere near enough damage.

<Craftworld> just isn't enough, for Knights. For everything else in the codex, after the points drops and rules changes it got, the <Craftworld> buff is nice. But useless for knights.

So far i'm really happy with most of it, almost everything got cheaper other than a couple units that IMO needed it.

But many units are already good and just needed a points decrease, we are getting that and buffs for the,

I love Bikes, Shiny Spears etc.. they are going to be fun to play again. Moving 2x with a 5-7 man unit of Shiny Spears and Re-roll1's on their 20 Shuriken doesnt sound bad

Wraiths are going to hit hard and fast, much more than now, if i'm reading it right, Wraiths could DS, charge 2d6+2" and gain Dbl Attacks (25 S6 -2ap attacks isnt something to scouf at).

Having 1 unit of a large unit of Guardians DSing, re-roll 1's with a 4++/6+++ for a turn and can move 7" afterwards.


The more i'd looking the more options there are and some really neat tricks. I cant wait to see the book as a whole.

Spelling

Niiru wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Bharring wrote:
<Imperial>?

Most of the <Craftworld> buffs have reasons they don't apply to the WK.

Being able to have an Alaitoc Wraithknight(which is actually pretty fluffy, at least from the way "Path of the Outcast" was set up mind you) with a -1 to Hit rolls made against it is nothing to sneeze at. Same thing with an Ulthwe Wraithknight being able to potentially negate any/all Wounds tossed onto it or doubling the number of Wounds you have thanks to Stoic Endurance and Iyanden.

I don't have the AdMech book so cannot confirm/deny whether or not the Dogmas apply to Mechanicus Knights but if they don't? That's a fairly significant difference in and of itself right there.

Additionally, there are not a crazy amount of things that immediately spring to mind that just apply to Imperium units(additionally, it's not a keyword in brackets while Craftworld is). I know Guilliman does grant a benefit and Inquisitors let you use their Leadership but that's all I can really think of at the moment.

While -1 to hit on a wraithknight is interesting, I'm not sure it's better (or at least not significantly better) than the 5++ Invulnerable save that Imperial Knights get as standard. Add onto that the ability to repair 1 or 2 wounds a turn that Imperial Knights get (Eldar have zero ways to repair vehicles, whether they're knights or tanks), Imperial Knights are still tougher than a WK.

Considering that the Bonesinger is specifically called out as having rules, never say never.

Additionally, the 5++ Invulnerable Save that Knights get as standard is a mitigation factor. It's only against Shooting attacks and in many cases, you'd likely ditch it in favor of the 3+ armor save assuming the attack does not have a high AP value.

Being able to modify a 4+ to Hit to instead be a 5+ to Hit is, IMO, far superior. Yes it has a 12" minimum range to be effective but it's not like there is very much that autohits with a fairly high AP value now is there?

Iyanden trait doesn't double WK wounds (if it did, WK would actually be work taking) it just means they stay on their higher statlines for a bit longer. It's worth it, for knights, probably. But it still doesn't make Knights worth taking as they still suck away far too many points from your army list and die too fast and don't deal anywhere near enough damage.

Maybe I should have added on "when comparing your Wounds to the table", but the point remains that they like the Valhallan traits that people complained about are something that lets already resilient units become more of a lasting presence on the table.

<Craftworld> just isn't enough, for Knights. For everything else in the codex, after the points drops and rules changes it got, the <Craftworld> buff is nice. But useless for knights.

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I don't feel that way. I feel that it is a huge deal that they benefit from the <Craftworld> bonuses, same as it was for Guard superheavies to benefit from them.

I mean, Knights also seem pretty bad now compared to Baneblade variants so I'm not sure that Wraithknights being plausibly about as good is actually good enough.

Why the flying feth do Fire Prisms get Grinding Advance but Predators and Dune Crawlers don't?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why the flying **** do Fire Prisms get Grinding Advance but Predators and Dune Crawlers don't?

Fire Prisms do not get Grinding Advance. They get Pulsed Laser Discharge. They are not the same rules. Fire Prisms still get -1 to hit if they move.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Bharring wrote:
<Imperial>?

Most of the <Craftworld> buffs have reasons they don't apply to the WK.

Being able to have an Alaitoc Wraithknight(which is actually pretty fluffy, at least from the way "Path of the Outcast" was set up mind you) with a -1 to Hit rolls made against it is nothing to sneeze at. Same thing with an Ulthwe Wraithknight being able to potentially negate any/all Wounds tossed onto it or doubling the number of Wounds you have thanks to Stoic Endurance and Iyanden.

I don't have the AdMech book so cannot confirm/deny whether or not the Dogmas apply to Mechanicus Knights but if they don't? That's a fairly significant difference in and of itself right there.

Additionally, there are not a crazy amount of things that immediately spring to mind that just apply to Imperium units(additionally, it's not a keyword in brackets while Craftworld is). I know Guilliman does grant a benefit and Inquisitors let you use their Leadership but that's all I can really think of at the moment.

While -1 to hit on a wraithknight is interesting, I'm not sure it's better (or at least not significantly better) than the 5++ Invulnerable save that Imperial Knights get as standard. Add onto that the ability to repair 1 or 2 wounds a turn that Imperial Knights get (Eldar have zero ways to repair vehicles, whether they're knights or tanks), Imperial Knights are still tougher than a WK.

Considering that the Bonesinger is specifically called out as having rules, never say never.

I learned this on the other thread literally about 30 seconds after I posted this post. I was very happy that it would be getting it's own rules. Such a nice surprise. However, the boxed rules might just be warlock/spiritseer rules, with a note to say "Bonesinger can be played as any of these psyker options". However, if it gets it's own rules, having a repair option would be very fluffy and something that Eldar lacks, for no reason at all.

Looking forward to it. I was gonna buy some anyway, but now I am even more excited!

Additionally, the 5++ Invulnerable Save that Knights get as standard is a mitigation factor. It's only against Shooting attacks and in many cases, you'd likely ditch it in favor of the 3+ armor save assuming the attack does not have a high AP value.

Being able to modify a 4+ to Hit to instead be a 5+ to Hit is, IMO, far superior. Yes it has a 12" minimum range to be effective but it's not like there is very much that autohits with a fairly high AP value now is there?

Possibly true, I haven't done the math. I just meant it to say that the IK invulnerable save does close the gap at least between the -1 to hit and not. Though WK might be better off with the Iyanden degrading statline buff instead...

Either way, as someone else said, the Imperial Knight isn't super great anyway, so even if the WK becomes almost as good as an IK, it will still not be good enough to bother playing compared to other options. I don't own one, I would have liked to get one some day though as a modelling and painting project. For now I'll stick to the projects I have. Plus a bonesinger or two!

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why the flying **** do Fire Prisms get Grinding Advance but Predators and Dune Crawlers don't?

Fire Prisms do not get Grinding Advance. They get Pulsed Laser Discharge. They are not the same rules. Fire Prisms still get -1 to hit if they move.

This honestly seems like a little bit of intellectual dishonesty. With the range on the weapons do you REALLY need to move much?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why the flying **** do Fire Prisms get Grinding Advance but Predators and Dune Crawlers don't?

Fire Prisms do not get Grinding Advance. They get Pulsed Laser Discharge. They are not the same rules. Fire Prisms still get -1 to hit if they move.

This honestly seems like a little bit of intellectual dishonesty. With the range on the weapons do you REALLY need to move much?

What are you upset about exactly? The Index Fire Prism is a really bad model, it clearly needed a buff to be relevant. GW chose this rule.

I don't know anything about Predators or Dune Crawlers, but they're irrelevant to the matter of whether or not the Fire Prism should get Pulsed Laser Discharge.

And yes, there are plenty of situations where a Fire Prism would need to move - to get LOS, to get out of CC, to get away from a threat, to claim an objective or to shoot its secondary weapon, to name a few.

 Cream Tea wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why the flying **** do Fire Prisms get Grinding Advance but Predators and Dune Crawlers don't?

Fire Prisms do not get Grinding Advance. They get Pulsed Laser Discharge. They are not the same rules. Fire Prisms still get -1 to hit if they move.

This honestly seems like a little bit of intellectual dishonesty. With the range on the weapons do you REALLY need to move much?

What are you upset about exactly? The Index Fire Prism is a really bad model, it clearly needed a buff to be relevant. GW chose this rule.

I don't know anything about Predators or Dune Crawlers, but they're irrelevant to the matter of whether or not the Fire Prism should get Pulsed Laser Discharge.

And yes, there are plenty of situations where a Fire Prism would need to move - to get LOS, to get out of CC, to get away from a threat, to claim an objective or to shoot its secondary weapon, to name a few.

Probably the same knee-jerking to the Russ getting Grinding Advance.

Honestly GW should just faq the old Large Blast weapons to 2D6 instead of implimenting double-shot rules; it seems like they had a minor moment of regret and are now trying to fix it.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why the flying **** do Fire Prisms get Grinding Advance but Predators and Dune Crawlers don't?

Fire Prisms do not get Grinding Advance. They get Pulsed Laser Discharge. They are not the same rules. Fire Prisms still get -1 to hit if they move.

This honestly seems like a little bit of intellectual dishonesty. With the range on the weapons do you REALLY need to move much?

What are you upset about exactly? The Index Fire Prism is a really bad model, it clearly needed a buff to be relevant. GW chose this rule.

I don't know anything about Predators or Dune Crawlers, but they're irrelevant to the matter of whether or not the Fire Prism should get Pulsed Laser Discharge.

And yes, there are plenty of situations where a Fire Prism would need to move - to get LOS, to get out of CC, to get away from a threat, to claim an objective or to shoot its secondary weapon, to name a few.

Probably the same knee-jerking to the Russ getting Grinding Advance.

Honestly GW should just faq the old Large Blast weapons to 2D6 instead of implimenting double-shot rules; it seems like they had a minor moment of regret and are now trying to fix it.

That's my feel, they really didn't translate blast weapons well, but don't seem to want to errata weapons statlines, and instead are opting to patch it with additional special rules (as is tradition).

The only place I really have an issue with it, aside from the poorly managed patch job, is potentially on the Fire Prism's Anti-Tank variant shot (having a Blast fix apply to weapons that aren't blast can have unintended consequences if the stats were balanced around an original single shot, on a related note to that, it also means Vanquisher's otherwise pathetic mono-role specialist main gun is now definitively worse than every equivalent in every other army without even the veneer of anything special going for it anymore) but that'll also depend on its final costing too.

So Alitioc gets to apply their "chapter tactics" to vehicles, but space marines don't eh? that's a nice middle finger to SM players

BrianDavion wrote:
So Alitioc gets to apply their "chapter tactics" to vehicles, but space marines don't eh? that's a nice middle finger to SM players

BrianDavion wrote:
So Alitioc gets to apply their "chapter tactics" to vehicles, but space marines don't eh? that's a nice middle finger to SM players

No clue why Marines are the exception to this, it seems like every other codex is gonna have their tactics be universal.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So Alitioc gets to apply their "chapter tactics" to vehicles, but space marines don't eh? that's a nice middle finger to SM players

No clue why Marines are the exception to this, it seems like every other codex is gonna have their tactics be universal.

Which Codex other than Eldar effects all unit types?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So Alitioc gets to apply their "chapter tactics" to vehicles, but space marines don't eh? that's a nice middle finger to SM players

No clue why Marines are the exception to this, it seems like every other codex is gonna have their tactics be universal.

Which Codex other than Eldar effects all unit types?

Guard and AdMech. We kept making excuses for it (the AdMech range is very limited, Guard has a number of things that aren't <Regiment> and are therefore barred anyways like the Valkyrie) but with Hemlocks benefiting from Alaitoc tactics it's clear that, unless you're marines, anything with the <subfaction> tag benefits from chapter tactics.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So Alitioc gets to apply their "chapter tactics" to vehicles, but space marines don't eh? that's a nice middle finger to SM players

No clue why Marines are the exception to this, it seems like every other codex is gonna have their tactics be universal.

Marines have far more stuff. Easier to balance.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So Alitioc gets to apply their "chapter tactics" to vehicles, but space marines don't eh? that's a nice middle finger to SM players

No clue why Marines are the exception to this, it seems like every other codex is gonna have their tactics be universal.

Marines have far more stuff. Easier to balance.

Part of what's so weird about Marines not getting Tactics on a lot more of their stuff is that there's no obvious balance-driven pattern to it. Like, sure, Predators don't get Tactics. Maybe you think that's justifiable because they're big vehicles with a relatively small number of long-range anti-tank guns (so they benefit a lot from several of the Tactics). This seems plausible at first glance. But then you notice that Contemptor Mortis Dreadnoughts do get Tactics, and they're otherwise a very similar unit. Quad-las Predators are 190 points for 12 3+ wounds and BS3+ shooting. Quad-las CMDs are 206 points for 10 3+/5++ wounds and BS2+ shooting. It does not seem very believable that this was about the difficulty of balancing Predators, and it created a pretty awkward situation. Where we are now is that if other factions get Tactics on almost everything, Marines can reasonably complain. But if other factions don't get Tactics on almost everything, then they can reasonably complain that after all Marines do get Tactics on a wide range of large models such as the FW Dreads.

With Chaos I can at least understand concerns about all of the DAEMON keyword units and how Traits on those might interact with abilities outside of the codex that buff them even more, but it seems like you could pretty safely make their Traits a lot broader than they currently are.

And flyers should just not have access to the Raven Guard Tactic. It's dumb. Every single Hemlock ever fielded from here on out will be Alatoic. Either flyers with the Tactic are too good or flyers with any other Tactic aren't good enough.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So Alitioc gets to apply their "chapter tactics" to vehicles, but space marines don't eh? that's a nice middle finger to SM players

No clue why Marines are the exception to this, it seems like every other codex is gonna have their tactics be universal.

Marines have far more stuff. Easier to balance.

Part of what's so weird about Marines not getting Tactics on a lot more of their stuff is that there's no obvious balance-driven pattern to it. Like, sure, Predators don't get Tactics. Maybe you think that's justifiable because they're big vehicles with a relatively small number of long-range anti-tank guns (so they benefit a lot from several of the Tactics). This seems plausible at first glance. But then you notice that Contemptor Mortis Dreadnoughts do get Tactics, and they're otherwise a very similar unit. Quad-las Predators are 190 points for 12 3+ wounds and BS3+ shooting. Quad-las CMDs are 206 points for 10 3+/5++ wounds and BS2+ shooting. It does not seem very believable that this was about the difficulty of balancing Predators, and it created a pretty awkward situation. Where we are now is that if other factions get Tactics on almost everything, Marines can reasonably complain. But if other factions don't get Tactics on almost everything, then they can reasonably complain that after all Marines do get Tactics on a wide range of large models such as the FW Dreads.

With Chaos I can at least understand concerns about all of the DAEMON keyword units and how Traits on those might interact with abilities outside of the codex that buff them even more, but it seems like you could pretty safely make their Traits a lot broader than they currently are.

And flyers should just not have access to the Raven Guard Tactic. It's dumb. Every single Hemlock ever fielded from here on out will be Alatoic. Either flyers with the Tactic are too good or flyers with any other Tactic aren't good enough.

Alaitoc immediately came to my mind for a flier detachment. I know I will run my 2 Hemlocks and 1 Crimson Hunter with that detachment. Added in with a points drop and Heavy Wraitcannons going to S12, this will likely become my auto include detachment.

Now that a lot more has been revealed, I am very pleased with the Craftworld codex. Now, I don't have to just default to Ynnari because Craftworld was so disappointing.

Surely the Hemlock with Alaitoc isn't too good compared to any other trait because it still needs to get very close to the enemy to be effective. At which point it's not hard for enemy to respond and move within the 12" bubble.

I get there will be some units where moving will give hem -1 rather than them suffering the -1 from being outside the 12" bubble.

I think the trait is great for them but I wouldn't decry it as broken

Drake003 wrote:
Surely the Hemlock with Alaitoc isn't too good compared to any other trait because it still needs to get very close to the enemy to be effective. At which point it's not hard for enemy to respond and move within the 12" bubble.

I get there will be some units where moving will give hem -1 rather than them suffering the -1 from being outside the 12" bubble.

I think the trait is great for them but I wouldn't decry it as broken

Especially compared to the other Attributes, Alatoic is the obvious choice for Hemlocks. Three of the other four do literally nothing for it and Iyanden is worth very little.
Ulthwe: doesn't stack with its built-in Spirit Stones
Iyanden: it doesn't roll to hit and, while its Movement stat degrades, it can always Advance 20" without penalty
Saim-Hann: it can't charge
Biel-Tan: it has no shuriken weaponry

But, yes, the Hemlock's big drawback even before this is that it needs to get close to do anything. It can't make like a Crimson Hunter and just swoop back and forth within your deployment zone while shooting across the table. However, it does have 16" range, so you can at least be >12" away from the stuff that really wants to shoot you, which is mostly heavy weapons that can't move to get within 12" without suffering a penalty. Also just because you're within 16" of what you want to shoot doesn't mean that much of the enemy army is close enough to you to move within 12". You'll still be protected from a lot of things.

At a glance? Potent, but necessary. While it seems really powerful, it's also because the Index was one of the weakest in the game. I'd say they're potent and competitive if not game-breakingly strong. I think the IG still has a definite edge, but the teases and info make Eldar actually useful. Nice changes across the board.

A few things they surprisingly missed (the garbage that is Warlocks) but on the whole? A massive improvement across the board.

True there will always be some things that can't move and fire without -1 to hit, but even a fair few heavy weapons now have rules for those carrying them to ignore the -1 for move and shoot.

There are also things like Plasma and Melta which don't worry about move and shoot which will still be able to get within that bubble.

I fully appreciate the fact that not everything will be able to get within the 12" as I myself made the same point previously with regards to the -1 trait generally.

On balance Hemlock has improved in Alaitoc only. But on flip side it does provide some genuine choice now between Hemlock and Crimson Hunter. Crimson Hunter can benefit from those other traits, and can fully benefit from the -1 thanks to staying in your deployment zone.

It will be in game decisions. Heavy Wraithcannons are assault, so this gives the Hemlock an 80 inch move with 2 pivots. Positioning for Smite and then shooting within the 12 inch bubble while mitigating other items to shoot within 12 inches. It also helps if you don't get first

Now with the reduction in Star Cannon points, it will be interesting to see how that lines up on the Crimson Hunter.

Hemlocks with S12 shooting now wounds T6 on 2+, which is significant.

I actually think that the Hemlock may have broken even. While it can get -2 to hit from being Alaitoc, it can no longer cast Conceal (which makes sense) and since its weapons are only 16" range, the enemy only needs to move 4.1" closer to ignore the Alaitoc bonus.
Being S12 is nice, but I can't think of many targets that are T6 outside of big single model creatures, which are better targets for lances, fusion guns and wraithcannons. The Hemlock is still better off shooting as 2-3 wound infantry, bikes and such. The vast majority of which are T5 or less.
The only real bonus is a point decrease, which we haven't see the extent of.

-

Where have you seen the increase to S12 on Hemlock guns and no longer casting Conceal?

Drake003 wrote:
Where have you seen the increase to S12 on Hemlock guns and no longer casting Conceal?

Preview videos. Links in the craftworld codex thread.

Ah thanks. Catching up on latest updates. Quite a lot has been shown or hinted today by looks of it.

Can't wait to start writing up some new lists once the Codex finally lands on my table..

 Galef wrote:
I actually think that the Hemlock may have broken even. While it can get -2 to hit from being Alaitoc, it can no longer cast Conceal (which makes sense) and since its weapons are only 16" range, the enemy only needs to move 4.1" closer to ignore the Alaitoc bonus.
Being S12 is nice, but I can't think of many targets that are T6 outside of big single model creatures, which are better targets for lances, fusion guns and wraithcannons. The Hemlock is still better off shooting as 2-3 wound infantry, bikes and such. The vast majority of which are T5 or less.
The only real bonus is a point decrease, which we haven't see the extent of.

-

Local gameplay is a significant variable. I'll demonstrate how, for myself, it seems to be a significant benefit.

- 3 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfighters with -2 to hit (Alaitoc trait for a Flier Detachment). This really helps me when I don't get first turn. Locally, we play that the one who finishes deploying first gets a +1 to the dice roll. A -2 and model placement significantly helps ensure these models don't get wasted turn 1.

- 80 Inch movement (when not degraded). I've got table length reach and can position nearly however I need for turn 1.

- Triple Smite. I don't like using Conceal from the Hemlock as it was very situational. Now, a Hemlock can't even cast it.

- I play against Admech a good deal which has a lot of T6 Robots. I'm will be wounding Robots on a 2+ with Heavy Wraithcannons. This helps greatly as a Robot unit with Belasarius Cawl is putting out 45-90 shots a turn. I need a lot to try and gut this unit quickly.


And now a Hemlock is 200 points and appears they clarified that Spirit Stones are already factored into the cost of the model. Plus, a -2 Ld modifier. For my army, it's a win/win.