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Problem being flat out swallowing whatever gak Hobby companies throw out at whatever cost asked leads to all sorts of problems, just look at the state of the video game industry, and crap like day 1 DLC and content blantantly being carved into premium slices is already happening in the hobby

Also Hobby companies are not my friends, they neither care about my praise or naysaying, we both owe each other nothing, a handful of purchases creates no obligations on either party

I don't know if video gaming is a very good comparison. Videos games don't allow you to transfer content between titles and aren't something the average consumer can modify and adapt to fit their needs where boardgames and miniatures are very open ended. I'm free to make house rules, my own rules or use models with any rules set I want so long as the other players are interested, where video games can only be played exclusively in the manner that the company provides them.

I think gamers tend to complain too much about costs in some regard because they moan about the cost of a game (say $100) which will provide options for repeat enjoyment but will spend the same amount of money or more going out for drinks or food without so much as a grumble and that's a one time experience. I think most people just want to complain about something.

My beef with DLC on Day One is when it's actually encoded on the disc, just locked away.

Getting new expansions and stuff? Irritating, just less so than the above.

That's not something we suffer from when it comes to TTG.

Yeah, when your DLC content download is 134KB...for a "large" DLC that's pretty insulting.

I don't think gamers are cheap.

I know plenty of gamers (myself included) that will gladly pay for something very expensive. The problem arises when they don't think it's worth it. In your examples:
1) Flames of War: I used to play it. But 4e dropped, and they essentially lost me, with how awkward the release was (yeah, I mean, who needs Late War rules anyways right? Just dock your points by whatever conversion factor and it's the same game!) I'm not paying my money for that.

2) Legion: I love Star Wars, but to me, it's just not worth it. If it didn't have a whole legion [heh] of random stuff to buy for it, I'd pay through the nose - but I'm not paying through the nose for cardboard counters and proprietary dice. That seems silly.

3) Shadespire: It's new. I've been looking at it. My friends have bought it, and I'm holding off buying stuff for it until I get to play it. But if it's good, I'll buy it. If it's not good, I'll still play it when my buddies want to but I'll build my own warband.

I've got the cash, and I spend it (I own 3 Ordinatus engines and 22 Baneblades & variants atm) on things I think are worth it. But not buying things I don't want doesn't make me "cheap." Neither does that mean I shouldn't want something so close to being good (like Legion) and interesting to me (like Legion) to be better.

There's definitely people who are ludicrously cheap (why buy this £100 model when this £30 one looks a bit like it from far away with your eyes half-closed???), and the weird and wonderful lot who will offer any justification for why they're entitled to the product but shouldn't ever have to pay for it. There's plenty of others who are maximising their money, which is a different question. To pick up on the Shadespire example, you have two scenarios:

1) "I want to play so I'll photocopy all the cards and rules and draw my own boards and I'll use these bottle tops instead of miniatures." A year later: "Why did they stop making this game, I was supporting it!"
2) "I want to play so I'll buy the starter, but the Orc models aren't any different to the Orcs I own already, so I'll just use those rather than buying some very similar ones."

You basically can't win with group 1, whereas group 2 can be won over if there's significant incentives to do so (good, like "this thing is too awesome not to own!", or bad, like "the only way to get X is to buy Y.")

 Corrode wrote:
There's definitely people who are ludicrously cheap (why buy this £100 model when this £30 one looks a bit like it from far away with your eyes half-closed???), and the weird and wonderful lot who will offer any justification for why they're entitled to the product but shouldn't ever have to pay for it. There's plenty of others who are maximising their money, which is a different question. To pick up on the Shadespire example, you have two scenarios:

1) "I want to play so I'll photocopy all the cards and rules and draw my own boards and I'll use these bottle tops instead of miniatures." A year later: "Why did they stop making this game, I was supporting it!"
2) "I want to play so I'll buy the starter, but the Orc models aren't any different to the Orcs I own already, so I'll just use those rather than buying some very similar ones."

You basically can't win with group 1, whereas group 2 can be won over if there's significant incentives to do so (good, like "this thing is too awesome not to own!", or bad, like "the only way to get X is to buy Y.")

Yeah number 2 is the category I'm in.

It's a fine line though - on one hand, releasing new and different Orcs which are more awesome will make people like me spend money on them. On the other hand, it will upset people who just wanted more of the same.

In my opinion, making both model lines at the same time would please everyone, but is likely not realistic at all.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My beef with DLC on Day One is when it's actually encoded on the disc, just locked away.

Getting new expansions and stuff? Irritating, just less so than the above.

That's not something we suffer from when it comes to TTG.

Going to have to disagree about table topping not suffering from that kind of thing Doc

The Gang War book for Necromunda is a play right out of the EA/Ubisoft book

 Corrode wrote:
There's definitely people who are ludicrously cheap (why buy this £100 model when this £30 one looks a bit like it from far away with your eyes half-closed???), and the weird and wonderful lot who will offer any justification for why they're entitled to the product but shouldn't ever have to pay for it. There's plenty of others who are maximising their money, which is a different question. To pick up on the Shadespire example, you have two scenarios:
1) "I want to play so I'll photocopy all the cards and rules and draw my own boards and I'll use these bottle tops instead of miniatures." A year later: "Why did they stop making this game, I was supporting it!"
2) "I want to play so I'll buy the starter, but the Orc models aren't any different to the Orcs I own already, so I'll just use those rather than buying some very similar ones."
You basically can't win with group 1, whereas group 2 can be won over if there's significant incentives to do so (good, like "this thing is too awesome not to own!", or bad, like "the only way to get X is to buy Y.")

I agree as well that this "list" nailed it.
I have a gaming friend who would print out on card all his miniatures if he felt players would accept it.
I bought 3 boxes of Shadow War Armageddon by GW when it first came out.
I like to "reward good behavior" of a supplier when they do things right.
If it is a token attempt, they may get ignored by me at worst, or the "cheaper/better looking alternative" used at best.

Why is there a requirement to buy figures that go with the rules at all?

FoW started making 15mm WWII rules where there was already an established market for 15mm WWII miniatures. I don't buy into the idea of a 'FoW Hobby'. I don't even really know what it is. Is it like the 'GW Hobby'? As defined in court by GW iirc as buying GW minis. That's not my hobby.

I buy their rules and I buy minis based on which represent the best (by whatever criteria I use) of their type on the market.

That's capitalism isn't it? If you want your 15mm sherman tanks to be the ones that sell they need to be 'better' than everyone else's. Companies expecting the customer to by all their game components from themselves is a ludicrous idea when your product is so generic. YMMV for games with Space Marines and such but I don't play these games.

 George Spiggott wrote:
Why is there a requirement to buy figures that go with the rules at all?

FoW started making 15mm WWII rules where there was already an established market for 15mm WWII miniatures. I don't buy into the idea of a 'FoW Hobby'. I don't even really know what it is. Is it like the 'GW Hobby'? As defined in court by GW iirc as buying GW minis. That's not my hobby.

I buy their rules and I buy minis based on which represent the best (by whatever criteria I use) of their type on the market.

That's capitalism isn't it? If you want your 15mm sherman tanks to be the ones that sell they need to be 'better' than everyone else's. Companies expecting the customer to by all their game components from themselves is a ludicrous idea when your product is so generic. YMMV for games with Space Marines and such but I don't play these games.

I completely agree, but I think the issue is that the players turn around and complain if the company/game goes under.

For example, let's use Legion. Let's say a player pirates the rules, then buys a whole ton of Star Wars figs from another manufacturer (no idea if this is possible but it preserves the example).

They play the crap out of legion, it's fun & awesome, and they spend more money on these non-FFG figs and more time on the game, etc.

Then, FFG pulls the game out from under them because it's unprofitable for FFG to support it.

Then, said player whines and complains and calls FFG dumb for pulling the plug.

FWIW, minis games and videogames suffer from similar problems of rising development costs for products whose prices are more or less at the ceiling of what the market is willing to pay. Companies are largely looking for ways to fund quality improvements to gain a competitive advantage without really being able to directly charge for it. Some companies have found good ways to raise these funds... others have found good ways to exploit their customers...

 LunarSol wrote:
FWIW, minis games and videogames suffer from similar problems of rising development costs for products whose prices are more or less at the ceiling of what the market is willing to pay. Companies are largely looking for ways to fund quality improvements to gain a competitive advantage without really being able to directly charge for it. Some companies have found good ways to raise these funds... others have found good ways to exploit their customers...

Whilst its a fair point many companies (admittedly more in video-games) splurge vast moneys on stuff nobody asked for like Hair physics or Fallout licensing and then site rising costs and apathetic consumers when said project falls flat,

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
FWIW, minis games and videogames suffer from similar problems of rising development costs for products whose prices are more or less at the ceiling of what the market is willing to pay. Companies are largely looking for ways to fund quality improvements to gain a competitive advantage without really being able to directly charge for it. Some companies have found good ways to raise these funds... others have found good ways to exploit their customers...

Whilst its a fair point many companies (admittedly more in video-games) splurge vast moneys on stuff nobody asked for like Hair physics or Fallout licensing and then site rising costs and apathetic consumers when said project falls flat,

I think hair physics is pretty freakin' cool to be frank.

I just don't think you could make or break a game on it alone.

EDIT: Language filter didn't catch it.

oh aye nice things are nice but spending oodles of moneys to develop something the recoups 1/10 its cost and then blaming customers is churlish at best

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My beef with DLC on Day One is when it's actually encoded on the disc, just locked away.

Getting new expansions and stuff? Irritating, just less so than the above.

That's not something we suffer from when it comes to TTG.

Going to have to disagree about table topping not suffering from that kind of thing Doc

The Gang War book for Necromunda is a play right out of the EA/Ubisoft book

It's not though.

Necromunda Underhive is a complete gaming experience. 6 missions, set gangs. Everything you need to play through it's campaign. You need never buy anything for this ever again. The contents are less aimed at existing Necromunda players, and more at having a new, self contained game out in the market.

Gang War offers a new ways to play it, if you want it.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
oh aye nice things are nice but spending oodles of moneys to develop something the recoups 1/10 its cost and then blaming customers is churlish at best

What fuels innovation though? I'd like to see hair and cloak (especially cloak) physics in-game someday. But there's no incentive to develop it, really, as I don't believe that will ever make or break a game.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My beef with DLC on Day One is when it's actually encoded on the disc, just locked away.

Getting new expansions and stuff? Irritating, just less so than the above.

That's not something we suffer from when it comes to TTG.

Going to have to disagree about table topping not suffering from that kind of thing Doc

The Gang War book for Necromunda is a play right out of the EA/Ubisoft book

Not quite; it's not like the Gang War book is hidden in the Necromunda Underhive box and the staff instore will show you where it is for £30.

LOL, well it was only a matter of time before the model-snobs showed up I suppose. Using counters? Printing out pictures of models to stick on to card? The horror!

What a load of nonsense. Christ I can remember buying GW boxed games with card cutout "models" in them. Folk need to get over themselves - spending more money than someone else doesn't make you a better person.

And LunarSol - I disagree. The rise in costs to produce games are being driven by two things - developer ego/vanity, and publisher excess in marketing. Developers spend stupid sums of money inventing their own silly proprietary versions of stuff like hair physics, or will develop whole engines from scratch even when one of the off-the-shelf engines already has all the features they need for the type of game they're making - not because they have to, but because they think they can do it better and they know they can pass the cost of their ridiculously expensive vanity projects on to the consumer. Publishers have fully bought-in to the movie industry marketing model where the budget to sell the game to people is often as big or even bigger than the actual development budget - pointless flashy "industry events", hiring flash mobs or legions of cosplayers, running huge ARGs, primetime TV ads, the lot, while also paying armies of lawyers and PR gits to help them control and shape the narrative surrounding the game in the media.

I mean, I dunno about you, but I didn't have a desperate need for my game avatar's beard to grow at a realistic rate relative to the ingame clock, or feel a burning desire to see every individual bead of sweat rolling down my avatar's face modelled individually and behaving accurate to IRL chaos physics. Nor did I buy Halo games I didn't want to play because Microsoft spent a fortune having berks in Spartan armour wander around a few cities to generate headlines.

And further, I'd argue the exact opposite is true for tabletop products - development costs have never been *lower* for companies. The big players all have regular salaried staff who's efficiency and output have been radically boosted by CAD software and in-house production capacity, and small companies & startups have crowdfunding, affordable rapid-prototyping, and commercially-viable third-party plastic production. Not to mention the possibility of outsourcing manufacture of cards, tokens, rulebooks etc to Chinese companies. It's never been easier or more affordable to start designing and manufacturing miniatures, that's exactly why there's been such a glut of new skirmish games and miniature-heavy boardgames over the past few years.

There's a difference between realistic beard growth and IRL stochastic sweat droplet modeling...

... and not having a character's hair clip cleanly through shield or armour that they're wearing because the developers can't be assed.

Like, all I'm asking for is there to be more effort put into modeling realistic hair than this:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My beef with DLC on Day One is when it's actually encoded on the disc, just locked away.

Getting new expansions and stuff? Irritating, just less so than the above.

That's not something we suffer from when it comes to TTG.

Going to have to disagree about table topping not suffering from that kind of thing Doc

The Gang War book for Necromunda is a play right out of the EA/Ubisoft book

Not quite; it's not like the Gang War book is hidden in the Necromunda Underhive box and the staff instore will show you where it is for £30.

Don't giving them idea's (well least not for free)

Perhaps it's me not getting what DLC is.

Although I do dabble, and have a PS4, I don't really 'game'.

What I'm meaning is less Nuka-World (one I do know of!), and more character skins and items etc, which are clearly already encoded on the disc.

That's not what Gang War is.

100BostonFan wrote:
I havn't been on this forum long, and except to get flamed and trashed for this post, but I have noticed a trend that kinda disturbs me.

As gamers we all want exceptional rules and models to play our games...but it appears anytime a game comes out with decent rules or a setting that people would enjoy, the community instantly tries a way to not spend any money supporting the new rule set.

Example 1 - Flames of War. It appears the community likes this game and wants the rules to be tweaked/added/edited to make it better. Which is fine, but everyone refuses to buy the Flames of War models and instead get cheaper alternatives....while expecting FoW to keep making rules for them.

Example 2 - Star Wars Legion. As soon as it came out it had the support of the community.....but they are already figuring out how not to buy the models.

Example 3 - Shadespire. People seemed pleased with this, but on day one I saw people saying they would just print the cards and play with old models.

It just seems as a community we want quality games, but a lot of us do not want to spend any money for these games.

None of these are the "community". Dakka is not the "community" either. You hear that sort of stuff in Internet echo chambers that are filled only with the oldest, saltiest, and most jaded of players. There is *not* a lot of those people, it just looks that way because those people hang out in the echo chambers all day typing furiously. Everyone else is busy gaming or doing other stuff.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Perhaps it's me not getting what DLC is.

Although I do dabble, and have a PS4, I don't really 'game'.

What I'm meaning is less Nuka-World (one I do know of!), and more character skins and items etc, which are clearly already encoded on the disc.

That's not what Gang War is.

No but its a Day 1 release for rules that could have reasonably put in the box at a minimal cost increase of £5-£10 as there's little difference between £75-£85 especially with a bit of hype to suggest its 'free' content, maybe it's more of a perception thing

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Perhaps it's me not getting what DLC is.

Although I do dabble, and have a PS4, I don't really 'game'.

What I'm meaning is less Nuka-World (one I do know of!), and more character skins and items etc, which are clearly already encoded on the disc.

That's not what Gang War is.

No but its a Day 1 release for rules that could have reasonably put in the box at a minimal cost increase of £5-£10 as there's little difference between £75-£85 especially with a bit of hype to suggest its 'free' content, maybe it's more of a perception thing

Pretty much this- Gang War is rules that were cut out of the rulebook for 'Necromunda' for an additional sale.

It will also be interesting to see when the gangs come out if they'll resell the models from the boxed set plus 'new' sculpts and juves all packaged together.


As for Shadespire, the price for the boxed game is low, but it honestly doesn't have much inside. The warbands are even worse- 4 or 7 models for $30 is really overpriced, even by GW standards. And while the skeletons are obviously new, most of the rest just look like generic khornate, sigmarine and ork sculpts that have already been produced for AoS. There isn't a lot to get excited about there, particularly with FFG style dice and card shenanigans to try to force sales.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I completely agree, but I think the issue is that the players turn around and complain if the company/game goes under..

You're making the classic mistake of assuming that the people doing 'thing A' are the same people doing 'thing B'...







Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mugaaz wrote:
You hear that sort of stuff in Internet echo chambers that are filled only with the oldest, saltiest, and most jaded of players.

It's not just the 'older' players who try to find ways to save money on their hobbies. I built dreadnoughts and a rhino out of cardboard back when I was getting starting, because the actual models were simply out of my reach. 20 years later, I'm much more inclined to just buy the model if I like it.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Whilst its a fair point many companies (admittedly more in video-games) splurge vast moneys on stuff nobody asked for like Hair physics or Fallout licensing and then site rising costs and apathetic consumers when said project falls flat,

Funny bit. A big reason Japan's gaming industry struggled to jump to the HD era was due to difficulties translating anime hair. Bald space marines really helped western companies pull ahead.

That said, as someone who really loves videogames for outlandish character designs, I'm glad the industry has continued to push working hair models and not settled on bland, but efficient character designs that gave us years in which the industry really didn't generate any memorable characters.

I think a lot depends on the medium. Historical gamers, for example, typically use models from a variety of miniatures, sometimes even cheap plastic "toy" figures that are meant for like dioramas and things (e.g. Airfix), across a variety of rules or even completely making up their own rules. It is/was a large appeal of those things. You can get 15mm napoleonic or roman figures from so many makers, you can pick and choose which ones you prefer. When you get into 1/72 scale models, it becomes even cheaper since you can buy plastic kits with like 50 dudes (enough for several bases, as historical games tend to use bases rather than individual models) for like $15; an entire huge army would cost about $50.

The notion that you need to buy models AND rules from one company is something that basically started with GW and others have tried to emulate since, but originally was laughable. So a lot of people want to go back to that; WW2 games for example there's no real reason to buy Warlord or FoW figures, if you can buy similar and cheaper models at a similar scale from a hobby shop or something (e.g. you could buy a Warlord sherman tank, or get a probable cheaper model kit from Tamiya or someone like that which will look more realistic).

It's a big part of the original wargaming subculture.

 insaniak wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Sure, they're buying something, but they aren't really ensuring the health and longevity of the business.

It's not the consumer's responsibility to ensure the health and longevity of a business.

If you're running a business and your product isn't selling, it's up to you to fix that.

Not even remotely what I was arguing. Nice straw-man, though.

You think wargamers are cheap, try interacting with RPG players. We have a group who pirate their pdfs, bringvthier own snacks to avoid buying from the store, and bawk at paying a few bucks a person to play.