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 LunarSol wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Game balance is already a train wreck with just a few options not being complete trash, it doesn't need to be made worse.

This is largely due to the combat engine reducing the game down to what is essentially a pretty binary damage race. The only real option at any given point in the meta is whatever has the current best ratio of damage output and survivability. There's not even any real variety in the styles of damage and defense available outside of arc dodging, which in and of itself is an incredibly binary gameplay state.

And arc dodging isn't even all that viable of a tactic anymore with PWT ships and bomb spam.

2 attack dice ships have become pretty pointless in the meta. I recently played a game against wookie ships with a bunch of ties. Your'd think that a giant swarm would be able to slowly wear them down, but reinforce meant that 1 attack dice was also redundant. I had to roll 2 hits on two dice, then hope he didn't get a success on his green dice. Meanwhile his "tank" ships have a three dice attack and with wookie commandos were pretty much guaranteed 2+ hits, meaning his shots almost always did damage to my ships.

This isn't limited to the wookie ships, as it's so easy to be getting 4+ green dice with conversions. So many battles where doing any damage at all is next to impossible.

This is one thing star trek attack wing does better. The designers made a deliberate design choice that attack dice should normally outnumber defense dice, in order to make sure long drawn out stalemant games were avoided.

Bombs. You need bombs.

The tourney last week, my second opponent had a Lowhrikk/Ezra/Miranda list that was supposed to grant him evades to the nines.

I show Miranda with Harpoons and had her sail into my bombs, then do the same to Ezra. Lowhrikk ended up eating two proton bombs stacked on top of each other. It was Hi-la-rious.

It'd be nice if the game gave you things that were actually worth bombing, instead of fudging the rules so you can use 'em against fighters. Wings of Glory has scenarios where there are cards on the tabletop representing targets for bombers; something similar would be interesting for X-Wing.

For some narrative games that would be great, not really applicable to the 100/6 dogfight that is all a lot of people are willing to admit exist, which I guess is one of the core issues with x-wig as it stands.

Xwing could definitely use some actual scenarios and missions. It suffers from adding ships which don't have direct combat applications in a game which gives no benefit for non-combat related bonuses,

 ingtaer wrote:
For some narrative games that would be great, not really applicable to the 100/6 dogfight that is all a lot of people are willing to admit exist, which I guess is one of the core issues with x-wig as it stands.

It's unfortunate that Epic didn't get a stronger start. I think if the game had evolved that direction it would have developed some depth that is really hard to introduce in the dogfight format. Had Epic none been a huge miss I like to think we'd even be seeing a similar expansion that added ground based implementations like Death Star turbolasers, AT-ATs and the like that could have made objective play a reality.

They could still decide to expand that way. They have a long road ahead of them if they want to keep churning stuff out.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Xwing could definitely use some actual scenarios and missions. It suffers from adding ships which don't have direct combat applications in a game which gives no benefit for non-combat related bonuses,

I was looking through some of the missions that have been released the other day and was amazed both at how many there are (24 or so plus the five mini campaigns in the epic boxes) and how few I have played (four, once each and about a dozen fan made ones). How does everyone else's experience match?

I think they are going to have expand the game in different ways before too much longer though I expect it to be a series of box campaigns like the Correlian one for Armada. Which could be pretty well done if they included new ships and cards, say a Scarif/Rogue One, one with repaint X/Y/TIE/sk with fixes.

Atmospheric operations might be an interesting addition - adding terrain and rudimentary altitude rules (low or high level; choose your level at the start of a ship's move, it keeps that until its next move. Low-level interacts with terrain, high-level does not (so a ship at low level has to move round the trees/mountain/tall building but gets obstruction from them, a ship at high level doesn't. You could add clouds as high-level scenery).

Various people mentioned separating pilots and ships. I agree that needs to be controlled, but I still think it's a good idea. It reduces the amount of errata/FAQ entries (if you need to change the X-Wing's stats, for instance, there's only one card to errata, not a dozen) and makes it easier to add new pilots. If the pilots were the things that are faction-specific, it also means that you can add things like the captured shuttle Tyderium, Imperial-aligned YT-1300s or other light freighters for convoy attack missions, etc.

 ingtaer wrote:
How does everyone else's experience match?

IMO:

The box missions are trash. They're inevitably unbalanced based on showing off whatever ship is in the box, and not really appropriate for normal pickup games.

The new "unofficial tournament missions" pack is potentially interesting. I've played them a bit and seen other people playing them (Krayts are the local group here, and they've been doing a lot of the playtesting) and they definitely force some different strategies. The common element (by deliberate intent) is to force you to engage in the middle of the table and punish ships like turrets and regen aces that like to fly off and stall for time until the round ends. You're pretty much stuck brawling in the middle, and if you break off to recover shields/dodge every arc/etc you're leaving your opponent to score easy points and win the game without killing you. I'm not 100% sold on this, as it definitely changes what ships/lists are viable with a specific bias from the designers, but it's at least an interesting starting point.

Sounds interesting Peregrine

Current design issues aside for a mo do people reckon the game could support a FFG designed tournament mission pack / format(s) a la Warmahordes Streamroller or that pure dogfight is the most viable way to run larger events

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Sounds interesting Peregrine

Current design issues aside for a mo do people reckon the game could support a FFG designed tournament mission pack / format(s) a la Warmahordes Streamroller or that pure dogfight is the most viable way to run larger events

The newly-released missions are specifically designed for tournament play.

ahh okay, will have a look intp that

One thing I would be interested in trying for an X-wing 2.0 game would be to hybridize the current system (using hidden dials with your choice of maneuvers) with Armada (Have to pick a speed and stay at it unless you actively change it, and use a flexible template). My thought being, if you made the choice of maneuver simply be certain restriction on how you can place the template, but allowed players to fine-tune their maneuver afterwards, it could really help High-PS aces that lack serious maneuver actions.

I would also expand the game to include the Clone Wars, while dropping support for the sequels.

Adding prequel ships, fair enough. But why do that instead of new stuff?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Adding prequel ships, fair enough. But why do that instead of new stuff?

Because the Prequels and Clone Wars are an enjoyable experience.

Ah, so you want X-Wing 2.0 to be for your benefit alone.

Because the Prequels... are an enjoyable experience.

Three words: I hate sand

Of course I may just be missing some sort of sarcasm that's not coming across in text.

--

As far as X-wing, I think it's a tough act to try to rebalance it without bogging down. I've been thinking about the discussion on accuracy vs. damage from previously in the thread and as a biologist it makes intuitive sense to have separate rolls - the more steps there are in a process the more modifications and controls are possible.

On the other hand separate rolls means more rolling and that can mean slower games. The other issue would be distribution to existing players - if you made a third type of die (say a purple or white color) how do you get all the new dice to existing players? And if you do it via expansions people have to purchase how do you handle the griping, etc?

Nowt wrong with Sand, unless of course it has the high ground and then its like NOOOOOOOOO.

Whilst it might be nice to have Clone Era ships to scratch that completion disorder many of us gamers are prone to I don't think they would add much to the game as they'd have to be 'worse' than existing ships, which could be addressed via lower points values but having say 10pt Droid or Naboo ships creates other problems as better number crunchers than I have said the base PS1 TIE ships should on stats be less than 12pts but aren't as 10 ship swarms do strange things to game

I think maybe having a look into reworking points, if the standard games went to 200, with ships going up to match so games still have the same approx squad sizes you might be able to fine tune points values better

Just taking the example of armada, you change the type of dice rolled dependent on range, you give an incentive to close in and get dirty. If you keep the X-Wing green dice, you give everyone a bit more chances to survive to close slug-fests,

I might remove the accuracy icon from dice, as there are no defense tokens to use and outright cancel evade results would completely gut green dice.

I have the complete opposite experience from Crazy Carnifex. I've been trying to slog through the Clone Wars but can't get through the first season.

I don't think you should change dice based on range, but I think different dice alone would be enough.

Have the current red attack dice, plus a new black attack dice with 8 sides. Crit, double hit, hit, hit, double focus, focus, focus, blank.

Then have the current green defense die, plus a blue defense dice with 8 sides. Double evade, evade, evade, double focus, focus, focus, blank, and blank.

Change the attack and agility stat lines to simply show dots of the appropriate color.

So something like a TIE Fighter would have 2 greens and a blue defense for agility. An Xwing would have 2 greens. An Interceptor would have a green and 2 blues. The Falcon might have a single blue.

For attack, a TIE fighter would have 3 reds. Xwings would have 2 reds and a black. Interceptors would have 2 reds and a black. The Falcon would have something like 2 blacks and 1 red. Proton Torpedoes might be 4 black dice.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Just taking the example of armada, you change the type of dice rolled dependent on range, you give an incentive to close in and get dirty. If you keep the X-Wing green dice, you give everyone a bit more chances to survive to close slug-fests,

I might remove the accuracy icon from dice, as there are no defense tokens to use and outright cancel evade results would completely gut green dice.

I have the complete opposite experience from Crazy Carnifex. I've been trying to slog through the Clone Wars but can't get through the first season.

Keep at CW, it takes longer than it should to get going I know that's not a great endorsement but it does get better, maybe another dakkaite with a better memory could call a good jumping in point ?

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:One thing I would be interested in trying for an X-wing 2.0 game would be to hybridize the current system (using hidden dials with your choice of maneuvers) with Armada (Have to pick a speed and stay at it unless you actively change it, and use a flexible template). My thought being, if you made the choice of maneuver simply be certain restriction on how you can place the template, but allowed players to fine-tune their maneuver afterwards, it could really help High-PS aces that lack serious maneuver actions.

God I hope not, part of what makes x-wing so good is how quick it is anything that slows it down I would be firmly against.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I would also expand the game to include the Clone Wars, while dropping support for the sequels.

Definitely go for both but after the new stuff is sufficiently fleshed do it as three separate exclusive timelines (with common upgrades between the three), would make balancing easier.

Mathieu Raymond wrote:Just taking the example of armada, you change the type of dice rolled dependent on range, you give an incentive to close in and get dirty. If you keep the X-Wing green dice, you give everyone a bit more chances to survive to close slug-fests,

I might remove the accuracy icon from dice, as there are no defense tokens to use and outright cancel evade results would completely gut green dice.

I have the complete opposite experience from Crazy Carnifex. I've been trying to slog through the Clone Wars but can't get through the first season.

Really like adding in different dice, especially those with multiple symbols on faces.
As for Clone Wars it depends on if you watching the original release or chronological release. Definitely recommend the three bounty hunter arcs and most of the space combat episodes, even the arc based on a section of clones who remove their chips (as seen on rebels) is worth the effort. Avoid anything with younglings...

Campaigns like the homebrew “Heroes of the Aturi Cluster” I think would be a great regular addition to X-Wing. Two aspects of that campaign would be useful in regular X-wing - a turn limit and objectives - as well as ground targets to bomb.

Also, they could take a page from Armada and introduce scenario/objective cards; that would help mix up the games a bit from “kill the opponent all the time every time”

I love X-Wing, but it's true that the core dice mechanics have resulted in things like the Twin Laser Turrets to simulate easy to hit, but weaker hitting guns.

My feeling is that colored dice are the answer for firepower. For example, call them Yellow, Red and Black dice.

Yellow, light lasers, would have lots of hits on their facings.
Red, Medium lasers, would have some hits, some crits, and a double hit.
Black would have almost all misses, and some double hits or hit-crits.

Defense would work that a successful evade result cancelled a die, not a hit.

So perhaps A-Wings fire 4 Yellow light dice, which means they're very likely to have 3 or dice score results of 3-4 hits. A TIE rolling evades say, gets two: cancelling two dice, but siffering the remainder. Potential damage of 3-4, and 1-2 got through.

If a B-Wing with a heavy cannon fired it's 3 black dice, it could score a triple hit, and a hit+crit, and a blank. But then that tie rolls and gets two evades: No damage. Potential damage of 5, but none got through.

That sort of thing. You could have turrets, range and out of arc give more or less dice just like now. But by controlling what the dice color are, you can also change how powerful stuff like ordinance is.

Just a thought.

If they started making ground troops (AT-AT; Towers:etc) to make a Epic type game but leave the most mechanics in place I think
They could make a great spin off game Would love to have more things of matching scale... Plus I don't know very many more
space ships they could make for the current edition.