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The fact it can only take basic marine units is what kills it. No Dreadnoughts. No Centurions. Just power armor.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact it can only take basic marine units is what kills it. No Dreadnoughts. No Centurions. Just power armor.

Devastators with Grav-Cannons, man. 20 shots with Cherub for the murder. . .

I agree the loss of the Drednought is kinda sad, as it's a memorable image, but it is a FW choice. Can't say I feel bad for the Centurions though.

A primaris drop pod would be good. Or any kind of transport that explained how Primaris got down off their spaceships (other than Inceptors, who freefall).

The tyrannocyte comparison is nonsense because the bug/pod thing is an actual monster that shoots a lot and then eats you. A drop pod just has a storm bolter. Also Tyrannids want to assault you, and can.

Swarmy doesn't need his own Tyrannocyte. He can quite easily jog up to where the stealers drop. When you've got a unit of 20 stealers you can chain a couple back to where Swarmy is before charging them off towards the enemy.

To be fair though, if you've got 20 stealers and Swarmy you don't really need a pod to get them across the board. They average 23" moved a turn anyway and can advance after charging. The Cyte is good for keeping them unshot until they get in though.

Mandragola wrote:

The tyrannocyte comparison is nonsense because the bug/pod thing is an actual monster that shoots a lot and then eats you. A drop pod just has a storm bolter. Also Tyrannids want to assault you, and can.

Swarmy doesn't need his own Tyrannocyte. He can quite easily jog up to where the stealers drop.

Ohhh, a lot of Nid players would disagree with you there. Swarmy is not that hard a target.

Otherwise it's true about the 'cyte. The Nid pod has more utility than a Drop Pod for sure.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact it can only take basic marine units is what kills it. No Dreadnoughts. No Centurions. Just power armor.

Devastators with Grav-Cannons, man. 20 shots with Cherub for the murder. . .

I agree the loss of the Drednought is kinda sad, as it's a memorable image, but it is a FW choice. Can't say I feel bad for the Centurions though.

Assault Centurions are way too slow to be of any use. Putting them in a pod would help tremendously.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact it can only take basic marine units is what kills it. No Dreadnoughts. No Centurions. Just power armor.

Devastators with Grav-Cannons, man. 20 shots with Cherub for the murder. . .

I agree the loss of the Drednought is kinda sad, as it's a memorable image, but it is a FW choice. Can't say I feel bad for the Centurions though.

Assault Centurions are way too slow to be of any use. Putting them in a pod would help tremendously.

Reopening Pods to everything seems like it would go a long way to fixing them. Me personally I would like throw down some agressors and maybe some intercessors to really throw some hard to kill models on the field close up, allowing your other elements get into place.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

The tyrannocyte comparison is nonsense because the bug/pod thing is an actual monster that shoots a lot and then eats you. A drop pod just has a storm bolter. Also Tyrannids want to assault you, and can.

Swarmy doesn't need his own Tyrannocyte. He can quite easily jog up to where the stealers drop.

Ohhh, a lot of Nid players would disagree with you there. Swarmy is not that hard a target.

Otherwise it's true about the 'cyte. The Nid pod has more utility than a Drop Pod for sure.

I agree that the pod has utility. But that utility comes with BS/WS 5+. As a 120ish point monster that's pretty crap. You would only want to bring a Tcyte to drop off something actually worth it and then fire off it's shots because maybe you will get lucky. It's DEFINITELY not worth a CP to try and make sure it makes a 9" charge.

And as stated the Swarm Lord won't survive running up the board alone to sling shot the stealers.

Also as stated, the Tcyte isn't particularly needed to do it.

Which brings us back to the comparison of the Tcyte vs the Dpod. Dpod is cheaper, does it's job as a DSing Transport better, and is getting a price drop to boot. I am not arguing that the SM codex doesn't have issues with internal balance and individual units finding their place. But I AM saying that the idea that the drop pod should be 30 points, or even 70 points, is insanity. How can you possibly justify that kind of price point on the pod?

 Lance845 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

The tyrannocyte comparison is nonsense because the bug/pod thing is an actual monster that shoots a lot and then eats you. A drop pod just has a storm bolter. Also Tyrannids want to assault you, and can.

Swarmy doesn't need his own Tyrannocyte. He can quite easily jog up to where the stealers drop.

Ohhh, a lot of Nid players would disagree with you there. Swarmy is not that hard a target.

Otherwise it's true about the 'cyte. The Nid pod has more utility than a Drop Pod for sure.

I agree that the pod has utility. But that utility comes with BS/WS 5+. As a 120ish point monster that's pretty crap. You would only want to bring a Tcyte to drop off something actually worth it and then fire off it's shots because maybe you will get lucky. It's DEFINITELY not worth a CP to try and make sure it makes a 9" charge.

And as stated the Swarm Lord won't survive running up the board alone to sling shot the stealers.

Also as stated, the Tcyte isn't particularly needed to do it.

Which brings us back to the comparison of the Tcyte vs the Dpod. Dpod is cheaper, does it's job as a DSing Transport better, and is getting a price drop to boot. I am not arguing that the SM codex doesn't have issues with internal balance and individual units finding their place. But I AM saying that the idea that the drop pod should be 30 points, or even 70 points, is insanity. How can you possibly justify that kind of price point on the pod?

Id rather pay for pods as points and not even have them with stats actually, kind of like the grav chutes on reivers. Seriously, its an immobile Rhino with a crummy gun and a mysteriously high BS. Once its drops it has pretty no purpose beyond blocking LOS.

Now another way to fix them would maybe to have them give some sort of bonus for the turn a unit deploys out of it. Maybe a binary choice, like Fancy Assault Ramps: Reroll 1s to charge or Ammo Stores: Reroll 1s to shoot. It wouldn't be a ton, and it wouldnt be entirely game breaking for those relatively minor bonuses (esp considering a Captain costs almost as the pod itself with that power always on)

I dunno, the number of times i've scored an objective or gotten linebreaker with a pod. . .

I have listened to the arguments both ways and honestly Lanxe845, the arguments you gave changed my mind. However I still would like to be able to put a dreadnought back into it, even if it cost more I would be happy.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

The tyrannocyte comparison is nonsense because the bug/pod thing is an actual monster that shoots a lot and then eats you. A drop pod just has a storm bolter. Also Tyrannids want to assault you, and can.

Swarmy doesn't need his own Tyrannocyte. He can quite easily jog up to where the stealers drop.

Ohhh, a lot of Nid players would disagree with you there. Swarmy is not that hard a target.

Otherwise it's true about the 'cyte. The Nid pod has more utility than a Drop Pod for sure.

I agree that the pod has utility. But that utility comes with BS/WS 5+. As a 120ish point monster that's pretty crap. You would only want to bring a Tcyte to drop off something actually worth it and then fire off it's shots because maybe you will get lucky. It's DEFINITELY not worth a CP to try and make sure it makes a 9" charge.

And as stated the Swarm Lord won't survive running up the board alone to sling shot the stealers.

Also as stated, the Tcyte isn't particularly needed to do it.

Which brings us back to the comparison of the Tcyte vs the Dpod. Dpod is cheaper, does it's job as a DSing Transport better, and is getting a price drop to boot. I am not arguing that the SM codex doesn't have issues with internal balance and individual units finding their place. But I AM saying that the idea that the drop pod should be 30 points, or even 70 points, is insanity. How can you possibly justify that kind of price point on the pod?

Every tyranid strategy I've ever thought of and apparently everyone I've ever seen - does everything it can to avoid taking the Tcyte. It's basically a forgotten choice now that the codex has dropped giving you a million ways to deep strike your units with very reasonably cost units - like raveners (which are't totally crappy) or Lictors (which are only 45 points and are pretty good in CC and grabbing objectives) and of course the tyrgon which is expensive but is a super close combat beast. Compared to a Tycyte though - a drop pod is noticeably worse.

Lets compare:
The Tcyte has about 2.5x the firepower.
The Tcyte can move
The Tcyte has 2x the copacity for infantry units and can carry Mega beasts like a haurspex...which despite looking great on paper actually hugely sucks - mainly Swarmy goes here (with essentially auto first turn assault againt anything you want with ether him or 20 geenstealers. (this is a game winning condition vs an unprepared army)

Drop pod has no advantages despite being what - 20 points cheaper? Plus - the units it can hold are absolute trash.

So in the scope of things - with the biggest factor probably being transport capacity - I'd have to say a drop pod should be significantly less than half of the Tcyte.

Tctye has 2.5x the shots at a bs 5+ as opposed to the dpods 3+. This is a wash in my opinion.

Tcyte has double the capacity for a single unit. Not units. Again its not like everyone elses transports where you can mix units up to a capacity. It can bring 1 unit up to a capacity.

Drop pod is closer to 30 points cheaper now going to be closer to 40 points cheaper if the rumored 10 point drop is real.

Biggest factor being transport capacity the drop pod still wins.


As for nid dex options, one hive fleet gives great tools costing cp to do it. Lictors work, but you need a way to put the units in reserve to start with in order to use it. Also costs cp.

Trygons cost around 200 points and by defailt only transport troops. Which means rippers, warriors, gants, gaunts, and genestealers. Pretty good but twice the cost of the dpod. Fair in my opinion.

Nids have options. But its not some blanket greatness that doesnt cost. We pay for those thing with hard choices, points, and cp every step of the way. Good internal balance is a blessing in that way. Again the sm dex has poor internal balance. But that doesnt mean drop pods price is crazy.

 Lance845 wrote:
Tctye has 2.5x the shots at a bs 5+ as opposed to the dpods 3+. This is a wash in my opinion.

Tcyte has double the capacity for a single unit. Not units. Again its not like everyone elses transports where you can mix units up to a capacity. It can bring 1 unit up to a capacity.

Drop pod is closer to 30 points cheaper now going to be closer to 40 points cheaper if the rumored 10 point drop is real.

Biggest factor being transport capacity the drop pod still wins.

It's 5 deathspitters vs a storm bolter. It's not even close to a wash. Assume 4 shots for the storm bolter to 15 from the spitters which hit harder and with -1 AP. Ofc you'd rather not have to take them but since you have to it has to be figured for. Realstically it puts out about the firepower of 2 warriors with death spitters - not amazing but - not terrible.

How do you figure transport capacity 20 with the ability to carry monsters compared to 10 with the ability to carry absolute trash units is at all in favor of the pod?

You did help me figure out a way to make drop pods viable - allow me to put Bobby G inside.

They're completely different armies. Also, Tyranids can't pack the same sort of firepower into a pod. It's practically apples and oranges.

 Insectum7 wrote:
They're completely different armies. Also, Tyranids can't pack the same sort of firepower into a pod. It's practically apples and oranges.

They can pack so much more firepower into the pod. 9 warriors in a pod outshoots just about every space marine option - considering it can shoot twice with 2 command points and then can assault something with actual close combat power...More to the point though - Nids can do this even more efficently with command points and units that aren't just a tax like the Tcyte or drop pod. So the point is mute.

The reality of the situation is that the tcyte is better than the drop pod but the nids don't even need the Tcyte because they have MUCH better options.

End result - no one uses pods or Tcyte.

*Moot, not mute.

If someone is moot, don't worry about them. If someone is mute, they're probably plotting against you.

No, I am no paranoid.

Bharring wrote:
*Moot, not mute.

If someone is moot, don't worry about them. If someone is mute, they're probably plotting against you.

No, I am no paranoid.

Thanks I rely hugely on spellcheck to correct my grammer. It can't detect errors like that. Fact remains - the point is moot. We are talking about 2 options that are avoided at all costs and used only in the lack of another option to make a strategy work.

The point about it being moot not mute is moot. But i have trouble staying mute.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They're completely different armies. Also, Tyranids can't pack the same sort of firepower into a pod. It's practically apples and oranges.

They can pack so much more firepower into the pod. 9 warriors in a pod outshoots just about every space marine option - considering it can shoot twice with 2 command points and then can assault something with actual close combat power...More to the point though - Nids can do this even more efficently with command points and units that aren't just a tax like the Tcyte or drop pod. So the point is mute.

The reality of the situation is that the tcyte is better than the drop pod but the nids don't even need the Tcyte because they have MUCH better options.

End result - no one uses pods or Tcyte.

A: Devastators with Grav kill Rhino+ equivalents and TEQ targets better than Tyranid Warriors firing twice. And thats without any Captain, Chapter Master, or Liutennant buff (which can come in the same pod) and with the minus for moving. Standing still in the following turn, or with further buffs, they will outshine the Warriors vs. Nearly everything else, except GEQ. Basically, they're better (sometimes far better) at taking out expensive/strategic targets than any Nids on the drop.

For numbers, the Warriors put 4.4 wounds on a Rhino with the Strategem, while the Devs do 6.2 without any external buff.

B: I use Pods, so you're wrong on that count, too.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They're completely different armies. Also, Tyranids can't pack the same sort of firepower into a pod. It's practically apples and oranges.

They can pack so much more firepower into the pod. 9 warriors in a pod outshoots just about every space marine option - considering it can shoot twice with 2 command points and then can assault something with actual close combat power...More to the point though - Nids can do this even more efficently with command points and units that aren't just a tax like the Tcyte or drop pod. So the point is mute.

The reality of the situation is that the tcyte is better than the drop pod but the nids don't even need the Tcyte because they have MUCH better options.

End result - no one uses pods or Tcyte.

A: Devastators with Grav kill Rhino+ equivalents and TEQ targets better than Tyranid Warriors firing twice. And thats without any Captain, Chapter Master, or Liutennant buff (which can come in the same pod) and with the minus for moving. Standing still in the following turn, or with further buffs, they will outshine the Warriors vs. Nearly everything else, except GEQ. Basically, they're better (sometimes far better) at taking out expensive/strategic targets than any Nids on the drop.

For numbers, the Warriors put 4.4 wounds on a Rhino with the Strategem, while the Devs do 6.2 without any external buff.

B: I use Pods, so you're wrong on that count, too.

I think you forgot to factor -1 to hit on your grav cannons which are heavy weapons. They do 5.75 avg damage to a rhino after busting cherb.
3 venom cannons alone after using the stratagem gives you nearly the same damage with 5.32 average and the 6 death spitters with 2.99 additional damage for 8.31 average damage to a rhino. Then if you gave the warriors adrenal glands they have a 41.6% chance of charging the rhino. So we can calculate that damage which gives you an additional 2.21 damage. So this unit would average a kill on a rhino. It's extremely expensive to do this. considerably more expensive than the dev squad and expenditure of the command points. I'm not suggesting you should every do this but the point remains. Nids can pack more punch in a pod than marines can. So it's hardly a balancing consideration. Nor was this an optimal target for the warriors to begin with. A swarmlord in a pod does considerably more damage than anything we were discussing.

A swarmlord on its own without tyrant guard is dead. There is no 2 ways about it. Nids dont ignore the tcyte because we have other options. We ignore it because it can only fit 1 unit. If it could fit sl and his huard you would see tons of them. If it could fit 2 units of warriors and a prime you would probably see 3 in every army. But they cant.

 Lance845 wrote:
A swarmlord on its own without tyrant guard is dead. There is no 2 ways about it. Nids dont ignore the tcyte because we have other options. We ignore it because it can only fit 1 unit. If it could fit sl and his huard you would see tons of them. If it could fit 2 units of warriors and a prime you would probably see 3 in every army. But they cant.

Yeah - that is true. It really is too bad that at least a prime can't ride along with a single unit.

 Lance845 wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Lets compare real fast.

Drop Pod 93pts + 3? (can't find the point value of the bolter in my searches. Looks like 3 for the other option) (and a point drop coming to boot)
3+ save 3+ BS single weapon T6 8W
Transport 10 power armor bodies any mix of units including characters to support

Tyrannocyte 98 pts +25 for cheapest guns
4+ save 5+ WS/BS 5 guns T6 12W
Transport 20 infantry or 1 monster as a single unit. No character support for the unit inside at all. Would need a second pod.

So the drop pod has, less wounds but a better save going from the Tcytes 1/2 chance to save to the Pods 2/3.
The pod also has a 2/3 chance to hit with it's guns as opposed to the TCytes 1/3. TCyte has more shots but the Dpod has better range. The Tycyte can move however.

But as a transport? The pod wins drastically. It can pack in a base sized unit and up to 5 characters to buff or any mix of models up to 10. The Tcyte can only carry a single unit and not even a full sized one for our base troops. You can bring 9 warriors and use less then half its capacity or 20 termagants and loose out on 10 models in the unit.

So to recap here. TCytes nobody is complaining about for anything but the weird ass rules where we cannot bring multiple units up to a capacity (Cause 2 units of 9 warriors with a prime would be great). But drop pods are aparently the worst unit in existance for costing less, having a better transport for their army, and a significantly more reliable weapon due to higher BS.

But yeah, they are not worth 30 points apparently unless they can break the 9" barrier.

What a crock of gak.

Well, this comparison should be put under a bigger picture. Nids have many ways to let units move twice. So those 20 strong Genestealers (worth around 280pts right?) coming out of the TCytes will certainly make a 1st turn charge right? and they will kill basically anything they touch except SH units right?
Marines? Unless the pods are transporting 2 units of Devastators with 4 Grav cannon (a total of 350pts) , then have at least a jump pack Chapter Master DS together with them, I think I would be really surprise if they did any significant impact against enemy army.
Remember 1 more thing, Droppod no longer have Obsec when taking Tactical Squad. So that is another punch to the Marines tbh.

Lets.

Nids have 1 way to make a unit move twice. It's the swarm lord (a 300 point model. So 280 for the stealers + 115ish for the pod and 300 for the SL = 695 point investment). He has a 9" m attribute and needs to be within 6" of the unit in order to use the ability that gives the extra move. In order to get the swarm lord into range with a unit of 20 GS that you deep strike with a Tcyte you need a second Tcyte to DS the Swarmlord (now a 810 investment). This is of course unless your opponent is an idiot and sets up the perfect positioning across from your swarmlord so he can move/advance himself to try to reach the correct range to reach the stealers. Keep in mind, doing this means he is leaving any Tyrant Guard you purchased way behind so the SL will likely be blasted into uselessness on the opponents first turn. Oh yeah! you were bringing the Swarmlord in a Tcyte, Bring a 3rd TCyte for his tyrant guard (now a 925 +105 for the guard). They don't fit in a pod with him since the pod can only bring a single unit and if that unit is a monster only a single model.

The other "method" is a stratagem that costs 1cp, you roll a d6 for each model in the unit and on a 6 the unit suffers a MW and they cannot shoot or charge this turn if you use it... so not relevant to the conversation really.

Nobodys dedicated transports have obsec anymore. Not another punch to the marines since it's a punch to everyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I think is happening here is SM players have a system shock from their edition lag. You went from free transports at the end of 7th which had the best, most reliable, rules for drop pods in the game to having to pay points and get treated just like everyone else.

MAYBE you should compare what you have to other armies equivalents a little more often.

Your drop pod is pretty fairly priced for what it does. 30 point drop pods would be criminal.

Well, I am not a Nidz player and just bought their new codex 6 days ago to study their strength and weakness so as to avoid being tabled by them every game in the future. Ok sorry for my bad in mistaking the price of Genestealer (they are only 240pts for 20 model) and the Onslaught power ability, and right, the Swarmlord is the only way to give move twice. Thanks for the enlighten. I am actually relieved a little bit.

However, imho you still do not need a 2nd Trannocyte for the Swarlord, just run it every turn until you determine you can charge (why you are not doing that??), so his reliable total movement is 12 inch not 9 in its 1st turn, if you found you can not get that far just use one CP to reroll Swarmlord advance range. So your Genestealer can just land 18inch from your deployment zone and still get move again in shooting phase right? Remember they can move run charge at the same turn, which make their charge threat range being 8+D6+2D6. Lets be fair to assume rolling average and be a little conservative, i.e. roll 3" for advance and 7" for assault, that yields average 18 inch threat range of Genestealers from their starting point. Thus it adds up to 36 inches threat range for this combo at the cost of total 663pts.

The opponent wants to avoid being charged and destroyed 1st turn? Well, you can try to find a place that is 36 inches away from Nidz deployment zone, but by my analysis via Euclid geometry, under Dawn of War deployment, everywhere is within 36inch of Nidz deployment zone. Frontline Assault, cool, the safe zone is only around 144 inch^2 area total for both 2 corners. Man, good luck have 2000pts Space Marine army stay divided in there before Turn 3 , ( For your reference, the total deployment area for 1 army under DoW deployment is 864 inch^2). Spearhead Assault: 624 inch^2 total for both corners) will be your shelter. Search and Destroy, a little complicated, but as analyzed, it is only 195 inch^2. Vanguard Strike: 286 inch^2 (Triangle of 28.9 x 19). And lastly, 288 inch^2 1st turn safe zone for Hammer and Anvil deployment. So, out of the 6 deployment map, the Trannocyte - Genestealer - Swarmlord combo only gives 50% chances for the opponent of Hive Mind gaining a pitty breathing room, in other 3 maps, opponent will get outright eaten or waiting to be suffocated.

To talk about the the capability of Droppod and back to the topic of this post. In order to match or surpass that level of scary of aforementioned Nidz combo with a SM combo taking Droppod, the only combination I can come up is a pod with 2 Dev Squad holding 4 Grav Cannons, and do not hesitated even a second to take Guilliman. Similar as how Nidz player would using their Swarmlord, I will also run Guilliman into optimum position and land the Pod placing both Dev Squads 6" in front of him, so to get 32 rerollable grav shots that is also rerolling wounds. The averaged threat range of this combo is same as Trannocyte - Genestealer - Swarmlord combo: 36". At the cost of 809pts in total currently. So point by point it has more potential than Nidz combo in killing bigger targets with T5+ 2+/3+ armor (and no inv save or protected by -1 to hit), but are less survivable in a point by point base (using AP0 weapon to kill 10 Dev marines is as easy as killing 20 Genestealer in this addition, the comparison will tends to favour Genestealer more when the weapon have any AP bonus).

In my 4 years experience, Power Armor Marines infantry are very slow in movement and very squishy in toughness for their points cost, the misery is compounded by their guns, which is mostly only powerful when they can get into short range. So, it is the DT that they have make them decent unit in any decently competitive environment. Due to offering them high mobility and either extra protection (in case of Rhinos) or strong alpha strike potential (in case of Droppods) to silence enemy guns before they themselves being wiped out. TBH, the DT transporting troops have Obsec means much much more for Marines than any other army (killing 100pts worth of PA models? Easy. Killing 135pts worth of PA models plus a AV12 3 HP model? Well, that is harder). With the edition change, that god's gift is kaput, and only Razorback looks good while Rhino and Drops costs too much for what they do. So now I am forced to abandon my usual fluffy "Angel of Death Steal Rain Alpha Strike" strategy (which deals OP Eldar list with WK spam WIndrider spam a huge blow in my history) and forced change to Guilliman - footsloging Dread / Razorback / Repulsor gunline strategy in any competitive play, which everyone call it [b]OP. Yeah, I admit I am one of the player who is under the shock of edition change. So Please anyone, anyone who viewed this post, enlighten me with more constructive ideas / comments for any better use of Droppod this edition , I am hungry for more efficient Marine strategy than just Guilliman gunline, like Hive Mind hungry for biomass


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Nice factual comparison on the pod/cyte, I hadn't thought of it that way.

Warrior-sized nids count as taking 3 spots in a tyrannocyte btw, so only a maximum of 6 will fit. The advantage the cyte has is that you can cram a monstrous creature in there. Hopefully chapter approved will level the playing field by allowing dreadpods again (and allow the cyte to carry mixed unit/character payloads while they're at it).

I think TCyte has another benefit, it is a flying monster while Droppod is immobile vehicle. So 1: the TCyte can charge and tie up Tanks / Devastators after it had delivered its passanger, and 2: It can land on top of Ruins while Pods only able to land on ground.

I totally totally agree the point of allowing Droppod transporting Dreadnought. That would make its points cost looks much more fair.

 Lance845 wrote:
Tctye has 2.5x the shots at a bs 5+ as opposed to the dpods 3+. This is a wash in my opinion.

Tcyte has double the capacity for a single unit. Not units. Again its not like everyone elses transports where you can mix units up to a capacity. It can bring 1 unit up to a capacity.

Drop pod is closer to 30 points cheaper now going to be closer to 40 points cheaper if the rumored 10 point drop is real.

Biggest factor being transport capacity the drop pod still wins.


As for nid dex options, one hive fleet gives great tools costing cp to do it. Lictors work, but you need a way to put the units in reserve to start with in order to use it. Also costs cp.

Trygons cost around 200 points and by defailt only transport troops. Which means rippers, warriors, gants, gaunts, and genestealers. Pretty good but twice the cost of the dpod. Fair in my opinion.

Nids have options. But its not some blanket greatness that doesnt cost. We pay for those thing with hard choices, points, and cp every step of the way. Good internal balance is a blessing in that way. Again the sm dex has poor internal balance. But that doesnt mean drop pods price is crazy.

15 shots at BS5+ is better than 2-4 shots at BS3+. On average you get 5 hits with the 15 shots, which is more than the max hits you can get with the Stormbolter.

You weren't actually being serious on that being a wash, were you?

They also have 12" more range. But sure. It's a wash...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They're completely different armies. Also, Tyranids can't pack the same sort of firepower into a pod. It's practically apples and oranges.

They can pack so much more firepower into the pod. 9 warriors in a pod outshoots just about every space marine option - considering it can shoot twice with 2 command points and then can assault something with actual close combat power...More to the point though - Nids can do this even more efficently with command points and units that aren't just a tax like the Tcyte or drop pod. So the point is mute.

The reality of the situation is that the tcyte is better than the drop pod but the nids don't even need the Tcyte because they have MUCH better options.

End result - no one uses pods or Tcyte.

A: Devastators with Grav kill Rhino+ equivalents and TEQ targets better than Tyranid Warriors firing twice. And thats without any Captain, Chapter Master, or Liutennant buff (which can come in the same pod) and with the minus for moving. Standing still in the following turn, or with further buffs, they will outshine the Warriors vs. Nearly everything else, except GEQ. Basically, they're better (sometimes far better) at taking out expensive/strategic targets than any Nids on the drop.

For numbers, the Warriors put 4.4 wounds on a Rhino with the Strategem, while the Devs do 6.2 without any external buff.

B: I use Pods, so you're wrong on that count, too.

I think you forgot to factor -1 to hit on your grav cannons which are heavy weapons. They do 5.75 avg damage to a rhino after busting cherb.
3 venom cannons alone after using the stratagem gives you nearly the same damage with 5.32 average and the 6 death spitters with 2.99 additional damage for 8.31 average damage to a rhino. Then if you gave the warriors adrenal glands they have a 41.6% chance of charging the rhino. So we can calculate that damage which gives you an additional 2.21 damage. So this unit would average a kill on a rhino. It's extremely expensive to do this. considerably more expensive than the dev squad and expenditure of the command points. I'm not suggesting you should every do this but the point remains. Nids can pack more punch in a pod than marines can. So it's hardly a balancing consideration. Nor was this an optimal target for the warriors to begin with. A swarmlord in a pod does considerably more damage than anything we were discussing.

I factored in the -1 to hit, but I also factored in the Signum, which bumps it up to 6.2, as the guy with the +1 will be the guy firing twice with the cherub.

I did not factor in Venom Cannons, that's a fair call. I forgot about them as my Warriors dont have any

But I also wouldn't factor in the charge neccessarily. That's more of a difference between units. You want those Devastators in a good firing position and shooting again next turn with greater accuracy.

Still, I'll give it to you that them Warriors put out some good firepower. Though they still need the CPs to outdo the Devs. While the Devs cost less, and if you bring them in bulk buffing them with characters becomes more cost effective.

Imo Swarmy is nice but even more expensive, and he has no shooting so you can screen him easier. I started bringing Grav-Cannons in Pods to alpha strike and fire past screens at IG artillery and the like. Different use.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Well, I am not a Nidz player and just bought their new codex 6 days ago to study their strength and weakness so as to avoid being tabled by them every game in the future. Ok sorry for my bad in mistaking the price of Genestealer (they are only 240pts for 20 model) and the Onslaught power ability, and right, the Swarmlord is the only way to give move twice. Thanks for the enlighten. I am actually relieved a little bit.

However, imho you still do not need a 2nd Trannocyte for the Swarlord, just run it every turn until you determine you can charge (why you are not doing that??),

The reason people don't do that in general is that everyone KNOWS the SL is a threat. He needs some Tyrant guard to stay alive and Tyrant Guard move slower than the SL/Hive Tyrants. Gambling their advance vs the swarmlords is asking for your swarmlord to be either blasted off the table in your opponents first turn or damaged so severaly that he will be made useless. a 300 point model whos net effect for the whole game is allowing 1 unit to move twice 1 time is a really bad investment. If your still seeing a lot of Swarmlords in your meta you can expect a pretty harsh drop off of that within a couple months. Most lists don't include him at this point because it's just too expensive for something guaranteed to die.

To talk about the the capability of Droppod and back to the topic of this post. In order to match or surpass that level of scary of aforementioned Nidz combo with a SM combo taking Droppod, the only combination I can come up is a pod with 2 Dev Squad holding 4 Grav Cannons, and do not hesitated even a second to take Guilliman. Similar as how Nidz player would using their Swarmlord, I will also run Guilliman into optimum position and land the Pod placing both Dev Squads 6" in front of him, so to get 32 rerollable grav shots that is also rerolling wounds. The averaged threat range of this combo is same as Trannocyte - Genestealer - Swarmlord combo: 36". At the cost of 809pts in total currently. So point by point it has more potential than Nidz combo in killing bigger targets with T5+ 2+/3+ armor (and no inv save or protected by -1 to hit), but are less survivable in a point by point base (using AP0 weapon to kill 10 Dev marines is as easy as killing 20 Genestealer in this addition, the comparison will tends to favour Genestealer more when the weapon have any AP bonus).

RG unlike the swarmlord is a character with less than 10 wounds and has the chance to revive himself while handing out a perpetual aura buff to both UM and Imperium in general. It's not really comparable to the SL who can either double move himself or one other unit and otherwise just has synapse like every other hive tyrant and many other units in general. He sure is a monster in melee before his stat line starts to degrade, but because he is targettable his stat line not degrading by turn 2 is exceedingly unlikely.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tctye has 2.5x the shots at a bs 5+ as opposed to the dpods 3+. This is a wash in my opinion.

Tcyte has double the capacity for a single unit. Not units. Again its not like everyone elses transports where you can mix units up to a capacity. It can bring 1 unit up to a capacity.

Drop pod is closer to 30 points cheaper now going to be closer to 40 points cheaper if the rumored 10 point drop is real.

Biggest factor being transport capacity the drop pod still wins.


As for nid dex options, one hive fleet gives great tools costing cp to do it. Lictors work, but you need a way to put the units in reserve to start with in order to use it. Also costs cp.

Trygons cost around 200 points and by defailt only transport troops. Which means rippers, warriors, gants, gaunts, and genestealers. Pretty good but twice the cost of the dpod. Fair in my opinion.

Nids have options. But its not some blanket greatness that doesnt cost. We pay for those thing with hard choices, points, and cp every step of the way. Good internal balance is a blessing in that way. Again the sm dex has poor internal balance. But that doesnt mean drop pods price is crazy.

15 shots at BS5+ is better than 2-4 shots at BS3+. On average you get 5 hits with the 15 shots, which is more than the max hits you can get with the Stormbolter.

You weren't actually being serious on that being a wash, were you?

So let me get this strait. Do you think a second or 3rd storm bolter is worth the extra almost 30 points the Tcyte costs now? Almost 40 points it will cost if the 10 point drop is true?

Yes. For the costs, it is a wash. The drop pod is less expensive with better transport potential. Having slightly lower average hits is a wash. Or are you serious that you would gladly pay 120 points for a drop pod that comes with 3 storm bolters?


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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
A swarmlord on its own without tyrant guard is dead. There is no 2 ways about it. Nids dont ignore the tcyte because we have other options. We ignore it because it can only fit 1 unit. If it could fit sl and his huard you would see tons of them. If it could fit 2 units of warriors and a prime you would probably see 3 in every army. But they cant.

Yeah - that is true. It really is too bad that at least a prime can't ride along with a single unit.

The TCtyes capacity should be based entirely on wounds. 25ish wounds worth of infantry and/or monsters. You could pack in OOE and a carnifex. Or 9 warriors. Or 8 warriors and a prime. Or the swarmlord and some tyrant guard.

If the capacity was based entirely on wounds you would get some real flexibility out of it and it's capacity would scale with the size of the creatures your shoving into it.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
So Please anyone, anyone who viewed this post, enlighten me with more constructive ideas / comments for any better use of Droppod this edition , I am hungry for more efficient Marine strategy than just Guilliman gunline, like Hive Mind hungry for biomass

From another Drop pod thread:


"For the past month or so I've been using a list with three Drop Pods in it to see how well they might work. So far, it's been pretty effective.

Pods are more expensive this edition, but they did gain a few things. They're 100% reliable now, and they are also not "dedicated", meaning you can put any unit (or combination) you want in them at the beginning of the game. And while other units can Deep Strike, the Pods give you the opportunity to load up on weapons that you wouldn't otherwise be able to Deep Strike with. What I do is take four 10 man units of Tacticals with Plasma, Combi-Plasma, and Grav Cannon, and a squad of 8 Devastators with Grav-Cannons (sometimes Heavy Plasma Guns), plus a Captain and Lieutenant. I Combat Squad the Tacticals during deployment, and load up all the Special Weapons and Heavy Weapons into 4 squads mounted in two Pods, the Last Pod bring Devastators and the Captain (Upgraded to Chapter Master) and Lieutenant. IMO this goes a long way to maximize the delivery potential of the Pods, and I try to land them into a nice piece of cover where they can start putting the hurt on things. Full drop Alpha strike is 16 Overcharged Plasma shots, and 32 Grav Cannon shots, rerolling to hit and rerolling 1s to wound.

A nice part about the pods is that you don't have to load them up with the same units every game. For example, if I just wanted to castle up in my zone, I can do that. If I want to load the Pods up with Bolter Marines and try to get some disruptive assaults off, I could do that. If I just want to drop three ten man squads on a flank, I could do that to. I like the flexible deployment. The first game I used them I didn't even drop all the units together, and dropped them all over the field to get objectives. I probably would have had no chance at winning that game if I hadn't had the pods, to be honest.

This list is extreme, and it wouldn't work against everything. But so far it's undefeated. Given how quickly points can be removed from the table in 8th, I think there's inherent value in keeping some units off the table and then re-actively deploying into a good position while guaranteeing a first strike."

Isn't that your own post from that thread?

I find the drop pod to work pretty great!

...for my Inquisition forces. Take a few min-size lascannon marine squads, buy them drop pods, then stuff those flying coffins like a thanksgiving turkey with Inquisitors, assassins, jokaero and henchmen.