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Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





Could always drop Chirpy to a basic VI/EU build for a bid, little less spanky but still potent

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Dang it, the point is Expose might work finally!

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





 Grey Templar wrote:
Dang it, the point is Expose might work finally!


Step away from the naughty EPT

That said its most likely worth a whirl

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




 Peregrine wrote:
 captain bloody fists wrote:
IMHO i reckon that "Blackout" is the better pilot out of this pack. Kylo is disappointing as always but Blackout seems pretty solid with his ability and it probably wouldn't be hard to keep behind obstacles for several turns.


Nope. PS 9 is all that matters. Kylo's pilot ability could be blank and he'd still be the clear winner. At PS 9 you can use PTL, which this ship requires. At PS 7 you are locked into VI, and giving up that ridiculous action bar. It's the same reason why the only TIE interceptor is Soontir Fel, with Carnor Jax maybe occasionally appearing as a control element. A situational firepower buff doesn't come anywhere near making up for the value of an extra action every turn.


Except that even PS9 isn't a be-all and end-all with the number of PS10 and PS11 ships floating around at the moment (VI Vader, VI Quickdraw, the possibility of a 'cheap' Flight Assist VI Wedge*) there'll still be a real temptation to pack VI on Kylo, and that compromises his action economy.

Blackout (anyone else think that's a really bad name for a test pilot) is not an arc dodger - he lacks the pilot skill or the action economy, and despite his awesome action bar, evade is a crucial omission.
What he is is a sort of Imperial analogue to Dash Rendar. With pretty cheap upgrades (trick shot, collision detector, primed thrusters, autothrusters) you essentially have a heavy laser cannon (4 dice, no range 3 defence bonus) mounted on a chassis which is nigh unhittable at range 3. More importantly, at range 3 movement order makes it a lot easier to line up your arc on someone. He'll not e easy to get used to, but he's essentially a sniper, not an arc dodger. The classic problem with Soontir Fel is that he floats like a butterfly and stings like a mildly offended butterfly; without Palpatine going "this is a critical" or giving up stealth for targeting computer, his firepower was no better than a 20 point generic striker. Blackout rolling in behind a debris cloud can hit like a truck, even from range 3.

Plus, don't forget you can get action economy from support ships. Even if you want a ''pure' first order force, a properly configured upsilon can offer a lot, from free actions to free tokens to PS12 "teleporting" deployment.


* Okay, not that cheap, but it's as affordable as a potentially dangerous T-65 has been for a long time..

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2685
 
   
Made in au
Missionary On A Mission





Australia

I hadn't thought of using him as a sniper but that's not a bad little idea.

Armies:
: 500

: 4500pts

Imperial Knight: x3 (2 gw Knights and 1 converted Acheron knight, wasn't going to pay Forgeworlds price.)
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






locarno24 wrote:
Except that even PS9 isn't a be-all and end-all with the number of PS10 and PS11 ships floating around at the moment (VI Vader, VI Quickdraw, the possibility of a 'cheap' Flight Assist VI Wedge*) there'll still be a real temptation to pack VI on Kylo, and that compromises his action economy.


Ok, sure, but if you feel that PS 9 isn't enough and you need to go to 11 you sure as hell aren't going to be taking a PS 7 ship. Kylo still wins this one.

What he is is a sort of Imperial analogue to Dash Rendar.


Except without Dash's 360* turret, action economy, natural 4-dice gun, ability to ignore obstacles, speed, or raw HP. Yeah, just like Dash.

With pretty cheap upgrades (trick shot, collision detector, primed thrusters, autothrusters) you essentially have a heavy laser cannon (4 dice, no range 3 defence bonus)


Assuming you can set up an obstructed shot. If you fail to do so you're just shooting with a normal 3-dice gun. And because you went cheap instead of taking advanced sensors you're probably going to hit that obstacle next turn, meaning you've got a normal 3-dice gun with no dice modification.

mounted on a chassis which is nigh unhittable at range 3.


Hardly. You have a nice pile of green dice, assuming you can set up an obstructed shot against every relevant threat, but your only dice modification is autothrusters (most of the time your focus goes to offense). You will take damage.

Blackout rolling in behind a debris cloud can hit like a truck, even from range 3.


I think you're seriously overestimating the value of unmodified/weakly-modified dice. Even with trick shot you're only throwing four dice with focus, at the likely cost of having no dice modification at all next turn because you don't have advanced sensors to clear the rock you're using to boost your attack. That's an average of three damage, compared to 2.8 damage from a generic 3-dice gun with focus and target lock. That's a modest improvement, but it's not spectacular. Compare it to Dash, who is averaging 3.75 damage with that HLC (assuming focus + target lock) without having to screw around with firing arcs or deliberately obstructed shots.

Plus, don't forget you can get action economy from support ships. Even if you want a ''pure' first order force, a properly configured upsilon can offer a lot, from free actions to free tokens to PS12 "teleporting" deployment.


Now you're sinking even more points into a mediocre concept in a desperate attempt to make it less bad. Blackout is questionable at best in the ~40 point range, when you're spending ~70-80 points it's insane.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745932.page]SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS[/url] 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

That's why I think Blackout will have advanced sensors and adv optics. So he can avoid rocks that he uses. He'll also often disengage to rerack and come back for another pass.

I think X-wing is currently plagued by a mindset that every turn has to be spent rolling attack dice or its a wasted turn. When bugging out and coming for another pass is perfectly valid, especially with many of the new ships.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in au
Missionary On A Mission





Australia

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think X-wing is currently plagued by a mindset that every turn has to be spent rolling attack dice or its a wasted turn. When bugging out and coming for another pass is perfectly valid, especially with many of the new ships.


this is a viable tactic and people seem to forget it. i think it'll make a resurgence come the gun boat reload time comes but i'm not holding my breath.

Armies:
: 500

: 4500pts

Imperial Knight: x3 (2 gw Knights and 1 converted Acheron knight, wasn't going to pay Forgeworlds price.)
 
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Best bush pilot in the Outer Rim





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

When you have powerful turrets gunning at you like Han, Dash or TLT, then a turn spent looking away but still at range 3 can be the kiss of death. In a field of pure jousters and arc dodgers, yes, turns spent without firing are nerve-wracking and will make the best pilot shine. We had a game like this the other night, it was a blast. But it's not usual. Not anymore.

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/503887.page (My humble P&M thread that I'll sometimes update, here on Dakka.) 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Grey Templar wrote:
That's why I think Blackout will have advanced sensors and adv optics. So he can avoid rocks that he uses.


Sure, but now you're paying more points than the theoretical cheap build. This feels an awful lot like throwing points at a bad ship to make it mediocre, especially when those points are primarily going towards a very situational ability.

I think X-wing is currently plagued by a mindset that every turn has to be spent rolling attack dice or its a wasted turn. When bugging out and coming for another pass is perfectly valid, especially with many of the new ships.


The problem is you're trying to make bad ships into Corran, without the things that make Corran so terrifying. Blackout doesn't have the sheer "say goodbye to that ship' firepower of Corran, or the ragequit-inducing tank that lets him survive the disengagement turn(s) while you set up for another kill shot. You also don't have the evasion of Fel, or the high-PS speed of Miranda/Vynder. The only thing that in any way suggests that Blackout could even consider this kind of strategy is that you have a pilot ability that doesn't work most of the time. And that's not a compelling argument.

As for breaking off in general, you have to answer two questions before you consider it:

1) Can I survive the disengagement turn(s) and get back into the fight without taking (meaningful) damage? If you're taking damage while you fly away then you're almost certainly coming back to a worse position than the one you left, and you might as well stay and trade ships instead of giving your opponent free shots at you.

2) Can the rest of my list survive? If your opponent lets you break off so they can go kill your other ships then they only have to fight part of your list at a time, putting you at a crippling disadvantage. The rest of your list has to be able to handle itself, or you just get stuff killed while your ace does nothing. At that point you might as well keep the ace in and accept the risk, because otherwise you just lose.

Most of the time the answer to at least one of these questions is a definite "no", and a game-losing mistake unless the clock is about to run out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/04 12:26:29


Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745932.page]SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS[/url] 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

You can always survive the disengagement unless your opponent was already turned around and behind you. In which case you chose to disengage a turn too late.

You should be disengaging the turn that your opponent does his K-turns/S-loops, not the turn after. That ensures that there is a good amount of distance between your ships so that, even with turrets, there is no shooting going on.


Also, I think building the Silencer "cheap" is not going to work well outside of possible builds with the EPT generics. Its not a cheap ship.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Grey Templar wrote:
You can always survive the disengagement unless your opponent was already turned around and behind you. In which case you chose to disengage a turn too late.

You should be disengaging the turn that your opponent does his K-turns/S-loops, not the turn after. That ensures that there is a good amount of distance between your ships so that, even with turrets, there is no shooting going on.


You seem to be under the assumption that most lists play to joust, alternating straights and k-turns until the game is over, and planning for that situation. But that isn't the real meta at all. Turret ships don't k-turn, they just kite you and kill you. Double-reposition aces don't k-turn, they match your disengage move and keep shooting. Attempt to disengage with Blackout and you have survive fire while you get turned around and set up another shot. But, unlike Corran, you don't have the ability to ignore that fire. It just isn't a realistic plan.

Also, I think building the Silencer "cheap" is not going to work well outside of possible builds with the EPT generics. Its not a cheap ship.


Sure, but I was responding to a specific Blackout setup that was posted. IMO the silencer is going to be at least decent, but with a very expensive Kylo Ren as the only viable choice.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745932.page]SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS[/url] 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Even lists which don't joust aren't going to be able to immediately follow you. Unless of course you disengaged too late.

Blackout will be best when sniping at range 3 through a rock, which is plenty of space to disengage.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Grey Templar wrote:
Even lists which don't joust aren't going to be able to immediately follow you. Unless of course you disengaged too late.


Why are you assuming this? The silencer isn't exceptionally fast, plenty of ships are capable of outrunning it.

Blackout will be best when sniping at range 3 through a rock, which is plenty of space to disengage.


No, it really isn't plenty of space. First of all, being best in that situation doesn't mean you actually get to be there. At PS 7 you don't get to choose the final position, you may have to settle for a range-2 shot through a rock, or even lose your shot entirely. And you almost certainly aren't going to get a perfect sniping shot against a target that is pointed away from you. They'll probably be facing in your general direction, and because you don't have a turret you'll be pointed at them. That's a converging situation, where any move you make has at least some component taking you towards the other ship. The best you can hope for is usually going to be a 90* turn, hoping to make it a coin flip where your opponent has to guess which direction you're going to go and you have a 50% chance of getting them pointed in the wrong direction. But that leaves a 50% chance of them guessing correctly, matching your "escape" maneuver, and shooting you in the back.

But ok, let's say you win the coin flip. You get away. But getting away for one turn isn't enough, you're probably going to need several turns of repositioning to get another perfect shot. Several turns where your opponent gets to chase you, and you're really being optimistic if you think they aren't ever going to catch you. This is the situation where Corran is just fine, because of his virtual immunity to a single ship's damage. You can take several turns of repositioning, ignoring those long-range shots pointed in your direction, before you come back around for another range-1 double tap. Blackout can't. You don't have the defensive tokens or HP regen to keep you alive. You can and will take damage, especially if they get to range 2 and turn off your autothrusters.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745932.page]SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS[/url] 
   
Made in us
Deranged Necron Destroyer





trying to "force" blackout's ability to be better is a bad idea.

As for blackout he can be a decent choice if you want to run kylo crew, as well as he is 4 pts cheaper than kylo. but then again it might be better to run something else at that point like quickdraw.

You could run RAC with VI+kylo+gunner+EU and blackout with PTL, prime thusters, title, FCS, auto thusters.

use kylo and go for PS 0 right away and you won't mind as much with ps 7 but until then it is a disadvantage with high ps meta

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/07 04:59:13


It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.  
   
 
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