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Made in us
Norn Queen






 Yarium wrote:
Just going to throw some more gas on this fire...

Counting as having moved, and moving, are two different things. The unit is actually deployed, not moved. Metabolic Overdrive is used after the unit is done moving, but the unit never moved, it only deployed. Still, if ever the game wants to know if it has or has not moved, the rules specifically say "yes".


But it's not just counting as having moved. It's Counting as having moved for all rules purposes.

For all rules purposes would be the same as moved when meeting the criteria for an effect.

Also, the end of the movement phase is still the movement phase. Is anyone disputing that? Just because it happens at the end of it doesn't mean it is not, in fact, still the movement phase. MO requires it to be used in the movement phase (No stipulation on what part of it, so ANY part of it), after a unit has moved. The deepstriking unit arrives during the movement phase (Specifically at the end of it) and counts as having moved for all rules purposes. What part of that is disputable?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/30 20:07:29



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Texas

Yeah i posted this exact question in the Tyranid tacitca. probably going to have to be FAQ'd

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Astonished of Heck

 Yarium wrote:
Just going to throw some more gas on this fire...

Counting as having moved, and moving, are two different things. The unit is actually deployed, not moved. Metabolic Overdrive is used after the unit is done moving, but the unit never moved, it only deployed. Still, if ever the game wants to know if it has or has not moved, the rules specifically say "yes".

If it was not moved, where was it before it was deployed? Right where it was? So it was deployed from its current position to its current position?

When GW has written "counts as", it has been used when something is taking on the temporary aspect without being fully converted. An IG priest in a unit used to have it count as moving, even if stationary, which would affect the Ranged Weapons in the unit.

For all intents and purposes, when something is "counting as" something else, anything that considers that 'something else' will react in such a manner. A Deep Striking unit which is considered moving when it deploys will have their Heavy Weapons accuracy affected, as an example.

So, your gas only counts as petrol if we completely ignore how GW uses the phrase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/01 03:38:28


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Ok well my local TO's are going with it not being allowed.

They are voting for the stratagem is used DURING the phase and wont be allowed at the END OF THE PHASE.

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oromocto

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Ok well my local TO's are going with it not being allowed.

They are voting for the stratagem is used DURING the phase and wont be allowed at the END OF THE PHASE.


Which they have every right to, But RAW we have precedent of powers/abilities allowing a unit that deepstruck to move again. We have other stratagems such as single minded annihilation that are used at the end of a phase(end of shooting phase in this case) to do something effectively extending that phase. And we have proven that all the requirements have been satisfied to use the stratagem this way.

RAW we can use it but as I said before I'm not going to use it this way until I get a FAQ or unless my opponent specifically tells me it's ok.

EDIT: Also if we want to do this we can just use Myceotic spores from forge world which set up like scouts and there is nothing that can be done about it for pretty much the same effect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/01 02:04:19


 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




I find it interesting that no one has brought up the reinforcement rule in context.

Units that are set
up in this manner cannot
move or Advance further
during the turn they arrive
– their entire Movement
phase is used in deploying
to the battlefield –
but they
can otherwise act normally
(shoot, charge, etc.) for the
rest of their turn.

If their entire movement phase is used just to deploy them, doesn't seem like there is much room for anything else.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






hachieman2000 wrote:
I find it interesting that no one has brought up the reinforcement rule in context.

Units that are set
up in this manner cannot
move or Advance further
during the turn they arrive
– their entire Movement
phase is used in deploying
to the battlefield –
but they
can otherwise act normally
(shoot, charge, etc.) for the
rest of their turn.

If their entire movement phase is used just to deploy them, doesn't seem like there is much room for anything else.


And if a unit advanced this turn you cannot select that unit to shoot during the shooting phase. Which means assault weapons don't work.

And if a unit is within 1" of an enemy unit during the shooting phase you cannot select that unit to shoot. Which means pistols don't work.

If another rule gives you express permission to break those restrictions then you get to break them. The stratagem lets you do it. The same way the Warp Time psychic power lets you do it.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Cardiff

 Lance845 wrote:
hachieman2000 wrote:
I find it interesting that no one has brought up the reinforcement rule in context.

Units that are set
up in this manner cannot
move or Advance further
during the turn they arrive
– their entire Movement
phase is used in deploying
to the battlefield –
but they
can otherwise act normally
(shoot, charge, etc.) for the
rest of their turn.

If their entire movement phase is used just to deploy them, doesn't seem like there is much room for anything else.


And if a unit advanced this turn you cannot select that unit to shoot during the shooting phase. Which means assault weapons don't work.

And if a unit is within 1" of an enemy unit during the shooting phase you cannot select that unit to shoot. Which means pistols don't work.

If another rule gives you express permission to break those restrictions then you get to break them. The stratagem lets you do it. The same way the Warp Time psychic power lets you do it.


Agreed. Reading a core rule in isolation doesn't tell you about special interactions with bespoke rules.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




So, the way I interpret this is that you won’t be able to use this on a unit that deep strikes, nor, would there really be any point in doing so.

The way I read standard reinforcements, is that they are triggered by the movement phase ending, and so, happen in the “grey area” between the movement phase and the psychic phase. As it is triggered by the “end” of the phase, you wouldn’t then be able to use a stratagem that is required to be used “during” said phase, due to the phase having ended.

Of course, this is open to debate of whether or not the “end” of a phase is “during” a phase, or after.

But, regardless, based off the FAQ, you would not be able to charge with any units regardless of any power or ability after using the MO stratagem on a deep-striking unit. (FAQ states using Onslaught does not over-ride the “cannot charge” part, so it is easily determined that the Hive Commander ability won’t work either, nor the Genestealer ability, even if they then advanced as part of the MO move.)
So, the only reason why you’d use this on a deep-striking unit, is to run them into gaps in the opponents line and hope they then don’t just get shot off the table in the next turn.

TLDR – I’m in the camp that it cannot be used on a deep-striking unit due to “phase” interpretation.
   
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Kdash wrote:
So, the way I interpret this is that you won’t be able to use this on a unit that deep strikes, nor, would there really be any point in doing so.

The way I read standard reinforcements, is that they are triggered by the movement phase ending, and so, happen in the “grey area” between the movement phase and the psychic phase. As it is triggered by the “end” of the phase, you wouldn’t then be able to use a stratagem that is required to be used “during” said phase, due to the phase having ended.

Of course, this is open to debate of whether or not the “end” of a phase is “during” a phase, or after.

But, regardless, based off the FAQ, you would not be able to charge with any units regardless of any power or ability after using the MO stratagem on a deep-striking unit. (FAQ states using Onslaught does not over-ride the “cannot charge” part, so it is easily determined that the Hive Commander ability won’t work either, nor the Genestealer ability, even if they then advanced as part of the MO move.)
So, the only reason why you’d use this on a deep-striking unit, is to run them into gaps in the opponents line and hope they then don’t just get shot off the table in the next turn.

TLDR – I’m in the camp that it cannot be used on a deep-striking unit due to “phase” interpretation.


It's not up for debate. The end of the phase is the phase. There is no middle space that exists between the movement and psychic phase that isn't really part of either. It's either one or the other.

The only reason you would want to use this is to put spore mines within 3" of an enemy unit without having to charge at all by passing over watch.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
 
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