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1. Melta Bombs are terrible. Nobody is paying for Melta Bombs anymore.
2. Not sure where you got that math. Vanguard with all Chainswords is 4 attacks each, with 5 on the Sergeant if you want 2 on him as well. That's 21 attacks total, and that's 2.3 dead total.
3. You also can double up on Bolt Pistols of course if you want a Cowboy thing going on.
1. Terrible like the Tac Squads outperforming Sternguard in the other thread?
2. I assumed chainsword and Bolt Pistol, good call on double chainsword, although for at least the ASM turn the bolt Pistols make up the difference.
3. VV do have a ton of fun options, no doubt.
- My point here is that yes, VV are obviously better for assault, but they're only a tiny bit better at low point values. Imo you want to capitalize on the three attacks the sarge has, but it does drive the cost up. At 92 points compared to the VV 90 base, ASM can buy a pair of lightning claws and also achieve 2.3 wounds if you count their Bolt Pistols as well.
There might be an argument for buying Plasma Pistols and a Meltabomb to capitalize on Fly because they can leave combat and fire. The more I think about it the more I like the Meltabomb. S 8 D 6 wounds is awesome potential for 5 points. Buying pistols for the vets seems like a waste because I think upgrading their CC weapons is more ideal, since they can capitalize on their greater number of attacks.
1. I literally made a giant post with a better Sternguard loadout. The one I've been using and actually netting wins. I actually made those Sternguard too. Just need to make a stupid amount of other stuff. Not sure what my stand-in Reivers are gonna be yet.
I'm expecting my Scorpius soon.
2. However if you wanna include Bolt Pistols, I can run them with dual Pistols. Then charge a weakened squad that way.
Point is that Vanguard can actually specialize to hit a particular target. The blech performance of Assault Marines is literally gone when you throw an extra attack and LD on the squad for just 2 points. Just 2.
3. Melta Bombs are bad even on models able to actually throw them at that range. 66% to hit, 66% to wound the target, then the damage roll. And you only get to throw one a round. Massed Power Fists would be better, which you can get with the Eviscerstors on the Assault Marines, though it's bad on a 1 attack model. Thunder Hammers though on a 2 attack model...
So no, there is no role for Assault Marines.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
1. I responded to your better Sternguard Squad post yesterday. Go check it out.
2. But at low point levels, the 10 points provided to the assault squad can get them a bit of gear which evens thungs out a bit.
3. Meltabombs are .83 to wound MEQ, do D6 wounds instead of a fists D3, and hit on a .666 rather than .5. And they're cheeaap.
VV are obviously a better assault unit. At low point levels I think ASM have merits.
There was more of a case for ASM back when flamers used a template and had AP 5. Esp as thats the piece of equipment Vanguard don't have access to. Sadly, no more.
assault marines might be better if you played in a meta like the in universe one where the bulk of your opponents are orks and IG and marines are rare eneugh that people don't kit to kill em
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
Insectum7 wrote: 1. I responded to your better Sternguard Squad post yesterday. Go check it out.
What thread is this? I've been thinking about a Lias and 3x Sternguard list.
Over in Proposed Rules "Proposed "fix" to Bolt Weapons", of all things. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/743674.page It went off topic over there. Slayer appears to run Sternguard/Lias as well, so you may as well ask him about his experience. He seems to like them.
The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.
It was not understandable because it is incorrect. Grav Cannons do D3 wounds against models with 3+ or better. Average Grav Cannon wounds are 2.4. Granted, there's no Guarantee of a non-1, requiring another shot. However they do average more wounds, comfortably beating out the Sternguard proposal.
As for Anti Rhino, 4 Lascannons with one at BS2 averages 6.6 Wounds without the Cherub, Grav Cannons average 7.4.. A Predator with quad Las averages 5.1. Get that, in rapid fire range, a Tac Squad averages more damage than the Quad Las Predator.
I forgot about the Grav, my bad.
However, that was a poorly equipped Sternguard squad in the first place. I'm doing 8 Sternguard with 2 Grav Cannons in my main list (so that is 6 Bolters). It clocks in at 190 something (around 10 points more), but once infiltrated or brought in via Lias they actually do work. How much more work? Let's find out.
Against GEQ, your squad in Rapid Fire does 4.1 dudes with the Bolters, 2.2 with the Plasma Guns, and 1.8 with the Grav Cannon for a grand total of 8.1 dead. Mine instead kills 5.3 with the Bolters and another 3.6 with the Grav Cannons for a total of 8.9. Without Rapid Fire, your Bolters kill 2 Guard, your Plasma 1.1, and the Grav Cannon still 1.8 for a total of 4.9 Guard dead. Mine instead kills 3.6 Guard again with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 6.2 dead.
Against MEQ, in Rapid Fire your Bolters kill 1.6, the Plasma 1.5, and the Grav Cannon kills the same amount for a total of 4.6 Marines dead. For my guys, I kill 3 total with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 5.6. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.8, the Plasma 0.7, and the Grav Cannon 1.5 still for a total of 3 Marines dead. My Sternguard kill 3 with the Grav Cannons and only 1.3 with the Bolters for a total of 4.3 dead.
Now I hadn't done REQ yet, so that'll be interesting. Against a Rhino in Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock off one wound, the Plasma non-OC 1.1, and the Grav Cannon 1.4 wounds for a total of 3.5 wounds inflicted. Two Grav Cannons from my squad knock off 2.8 wounds and the Bolters 1.7 wounds for a total of 4.5 wounds. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock out 0.5 wounds, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon has the consistent 1.4 for a total of 2.5. Two Grav Cannons from me do 2.8 again and the Bolters do a paltry 0.8 for a total of 3.6.
And of course who can forget about TEQ? In Rapid Fire range your Bolters inflict 0.8 wounds, the Plasma 1.2, and the Grav Cannon 2.2 for a total of 4.2 wounds inflicted, or basically two Terminators and a part dead. On my end I get 4.4 from the Grav Cannons wounding, and the Special Bolters do a spectacular 2 wounds for a total of 6.4 wounds, or 3 Terminators and a part dead. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.4, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon still 2.2 wounds for a total of one dead Terminator and one wound carried over. The Grav Cannons do 4.4 wounds again and the Bolters wound one, which is 5.4.
Now I'm sure you have complaints. The first one could be that I added 10 points to my squad to do this. That's fair. That's only 10 points for more effectiveness and a greater threat range though (don't forget Special Issue Bolters having that delicious 30" range), and I know people like you like adding Power Weapons and junk so that evens out.. You could say it's less guys, which is also true. However, at LD8/9 I don't have a high chance of running away, and to be honest it won't be hard to kill another 2 Marines to accomplish the job. You could argue for overcharging the Plasma, but there was a reason people took little Plasma last edition and therefore you would need rerolls. For the sake of fairness I'd have to add rerolls too.
Alright, that's a much better squad. My first table was with overcharged plasma for TEQ and REQ, so redoing your table representing overcharge. Rerolls to hit are applied equally, so the relationships don't change. We'd see the same results winners/losers, every number would just be improved by 20% or whatever. No, I don't take power weapons on my Tacs. As for Ld, I play UM, so I'm 8/9 on Tacs to begin with.
RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.9------------5.6-----------5.6-----------4.5
TAC------------8.1------------4.49----------6.1-----------5.4 With overcharge, the Tacticals are still ahead against TEQ and REQ close up. You're paying more for a squad that kills 4 point guys better, while I'm paying less for a squad that kills 30(or whatever) point guys better, longer. The Tacticals are better at making their points back.
24range___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN ------6.2------------4.3------------5.4----------3.6 Sternguard are ahead at range across the board.
TAC-----------4.9------------2.9------------4.2----------3.4
But here's the first aspect that I'm also interested in. Once squads takes a few casualties the tables turn, and the Tacticals begin to beat out the Sternguard against the lighter targets as well.
RFrange w/4 casualties.
STERN--------5.3------------3.8-----------5.3-----------3.5 Sternguard degrade faster, and the Tacticals last longer.
TAC------------5.7------------3.6*---------5.6-----------4.8
*Overcharge Plasma------3.97
And here's the other part I'm interested in, 10 Sternguard with just Special Issue Bolters. (180 points)
If we look at just their Bolters, they do good work against lighter targets. If you compare the last chart with the top Sternguard chart in Rapid Fire range, you see that the additional damage your squad is doing against MEQ and higher target categories is largely because of the Grav Cannons. If the Grav Cannons are doing the work, why take Sternguard over Devastators? Is the incentive behind Special Issue Bolters to bring GEQ killing power to the rest of the squad? The problem with that is:
Your squad costs 196. That's worth 15 normal Space Marines, which is 195. 15 x .666 x .666 x .666 x 2 (rapid fire) = 8.86 A tie with the Sternguard against GEQ. Just as effective against GEQ, but with almost twice the number of wounds. Point for point, basic Space Marines kill GEQ as good as the Sternguard do, and last longer. The basic marine increases the longevity of a Tactical Squad and does the same task as the specialization of the Sternguard. Fun fact: As three squads, if 3 of them throw Frag it's 10.5 kills, well ahead of the Sternguard. Sternguard don't really have this option because it's always better for them to shoot their bolter.
The proposed Sternguard squad does do better damage at range, but again, it's not veterans with bolters doing the work, its the Grav Cannons. If you're going to operate at longer ranges, why wouldn't you get Devastators instead? At range you're wasting the damage potential of the expensive models/bolters, imo.
So in conclusion, Sternguard are cool, but as a squad they're more specialized than they appear. They're good at killing light to medium infantry, but you're paying more for a squad that degrades faster, dies faster, and specializes in killing lower point models. The Tacs more effectively shield the specials and heavy weapons, and the bolter guys can passively achieve the thing that you pay 4 pts. for Sternguard to specialize in.
And this is all just the numbers, buying troops to get CPs is good, having ObSec (even if you don't value it like I do) is also still an advantage.
Feel free to take Sternguard. They concentrate anti infantry firepower a little better. Maybe Lias and the Raptors (?) Chapter Tactics improve them more somehow. But looking at the numbers, I favor Tacticals for my UM.
In summary he like his veterans, and I like my basic marines. He seems to hate that I like basic marines. This Assault Squad thread is spawned because of that. Admittedly, I can't defend the Assault Squad as well, as their gear options are significantly more limited. I don't think they're useless, but they are much more edge-case.
Well, how well does some Assault Marines fare against something like a Guard HQ? You would, assuming you use them at all, try and put them up against a high-value but low model count squad, right?
I dont know about regular SM, but BA assault squad can use plasmaguns, meltas and flamethrowers, 2 models in a 5 model unit. Doesnt change when there are 10 models. And of course BA specific inferno pistols and the regular pistols. They can use one eviscerator for every 5 models, so two for 10 models. The sarge may pick a combat shield and melta bombs.
However, anything Assault Marines do, Vanguards do better.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Insectum7 wrote: 1. I responded to your better Sternguard Squad post yesterday. Go check it out.
2. But at low point levels, the 10 points provided to the assault squad can get them a bit of gear which evens thungs out a bit.
3. Meltabombs are .83 to wound MEQ, do D6 wounds instead of a fists D3, and hit on a .666 rather than .5. And they're cheeaap.
VV are obviously a better assault unit. At low point levels I think ASM have merits.
There was more of a case for ASM back when flamers used a template and had AP 5. Esp as thats the piece of equipment Vanguard don't have access to. Sadly, no more.
1. That thread has no response on my end. I'll look during my lunch.
2. It doesn't even things out. Nobody is buying Melta Bombs anymore for their Assault units, and the lone Power Weapon only gets you so far. It's like the people in a Tactical Marine thread that said the squad is okay at melee because of the Sergeant. And then I showed him and his squad losing to Conscripts (not that it matters now as Conscripts got a point bump for whatever forsaken reason).
The point being if the whole squad can't kill the opponent it's useless. Marines are not durable. You need to be able to kill the opponent before they kill you, and Assault Marines don't have weight of attacks or the ability to specialize to hurt a specific target.
Look at it this way: you're using those 10 points to not make the Assault Marines a liability. That's your upgrade. Whatever you wanna throw on them next is on you.
3. Once again, Melta Bombs are garbage, and you can buy them for Vanguard if you're that desperate. That's just another 5 points.
At low point levels, Vanguard are still better because they're only as expensive as you make them. You bought a Power Weapon that doesn't really even anything out and a Melta Bomb that will never get used for the same price. Does it really matter that you pay just an extra 5 points for a Melta Bomb for Vanguard? No.
I can't talk about Power Level though because I've never bothered to tackle that.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well that's about the way to do it now. MoK doesn't change them rules wise, but rather how they interact with other models, so it breaks fluff slightly less.
For sure, the Icon is great, have that on one squad, drop in a Sorcerer with another squad for Warptime, maybe get a lucky charge with a Chaos Lord and possibly the Sorcerer.
Yeah, like I said, fidgety, maybe good, but fidgety.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Insectum7 wrote: 1. I responded to your better Sternguard Squad post yesterday. Go check it out.
What thread is this? I've been thinking about a Lias and 3x Sternguard list.
Over in Proposed Rules "Proposed "fix" to Bolt Weapons", of all things. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/743674.page It went off topic over there. Slayer appears to run Sternguard/Lias as well, so you may as well ask him about his experience. He seems to like them.
The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.
It was not understandable because it is incorrect. Grav Cannons do D3 wounds against models with 3+ or better. Average Grav Cannon wounds are 2.4. Granted, there's no Guarantee of a non-1, requiring another shot. However they do average more wounds, comfortably beating out the Sternguard proposal.
As for Anti Rhino, 4 Lascannons with one at BS2 averages 6.6 Wounds without the Cherub, Grav Cannons average 7.4.. A Predator with quad Las averages 5.1. Get that, in rapid fire range, a Tac Squad averages more damage than the Quad Las Predator.
I forgot about the Grav, my bad.
However, that was a poorly equipped Sternguard squad in the first place. I'm doing 8 Sternguard with 2 Grav Cannons in my main list (so that is 6 Bolters). It clocks in at 190 something (around 10 points more), but once infiltrated or brought in via Lias they actually do work. How much more work? Let's find out.
Against GEQ, your squad in Rapid Fire does 4.1 dudes with the Bolters, 2.2 with the Plasma Guns, and 1.8 with the Grav Cannon for a grand total of 8.1 dead. Mine instead kills 5.3 with the Bolters and another 3.6 with the Grav Cannons for a total of 8.9. Without Rapid Fire, your Bolters kill 2 Guard, your Plasma 1.1, and the Grav Cannon still 1.8 for a total of 4.9 Guard dead. Mine instead kills 3.6 Guard again with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 6.2 dead.
Against MEQ, in Rapid Fire your Bolters kill 1.6, the Plasma 1.5, and the Grav Cannon kills the same amount for a total of 4.6 Marines dead. For my guys, I kill 3 total with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 5.6. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.8, the Plasma 0.7, and the Grav Cannon 1.5 still for a total of 3 Marines dead. My Sternguard kill 3 with the Grav Cannons and only 1.3 with the Bolters for a total of 4.3 dead.
Now I hadn't done REQ yet, so that'll be interesting. Against a Rhino in Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock off one wound, the Plasma non-OC 1.1, and the Grav Cannon 1.4 wounds for a total of 3.5 wounds inflicted. Two Grav Cannons from my squad knock off 2.8 wounds and the Bolters 1.7 wounds for a total of 4.5 wounds. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock out 0.5 wounds, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon has the consistent 1.4 for a total of 2.5. Two Grav Cannons from me do 2.8 again and the Bolters do a paltry 0.8 for a total of 3.6.
And of course who can forget about TEQ? In Rapid Fire range your Bolters inflict 0.8 wounds, the Plasma 1.2, and the Grav Cannon 2.2 for a total of 4.2 wounds inflicted, or basically two Terminators and a part dead. On my end I get 4.4 from the Grav Cannons wounding, and the Special Bolters do a spectacular 2 wounds for a total of 6.4 wounds, or 3 Terminators and a part dead. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.4, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon still 2.2 wounds for a total of one dead Terminator and one wound carried over. The Grav Cannons do 4.4 wounds again and the Bolters wound one, which is 5.4.
Now I'm sure you have complaints. The first one could be that I added 10 points to my squad to do this. That's fair. That's only 10 points for more effectiveness and a greater threat range though (don't forget Special Issue Bolters having that delicious 30" range), and I know people like you like adding Power Weapons and junk so that evens out.. You could say it's less guys, which is also true. However, at LD8/9 I don't have a high chance of running away, and to be honest it won't be hard to kill another 2 Marines to accomplish the job. You could argue for overcharging the Plasma, but there was a reason people took little Plasma last edition and therefore you would need rerolls. For the sake of fairness I'd have to add rerolls too.
Alright, that's a much better squad. My first table was with overcharged plasma for TEQ and REQ, so redoing your table representing overcharge. Rerolls to hit are applied equally, so the relationships don't change. We'd see the same results winners/losers, every number would just be improved by 20% or whatever. No, I don't take power weapons on my Tacs. As for Ld, I play UM, so I'm 8/9 on Tacs to begin with.
RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.9------------5.6-----------5.6-----------4.5
TAC------------8.1------------4.49----------6.1-----------5.4 With overcharge, the Tacticals are still ahead against TEQ and REQ close up. You're paying more for a squad that kills 4 point guys better, while I'm paying less for a squad that kills 30(or whatever) point guys better, longer. The Tacticals are better at making their points back.
24range___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN ------6.2------------4.3------------5.4----------3.6 Sternguard are ahead at range across the board.
TAC-----------4.9------------2.9------------4.2----------3.4
But here's the first aspect that I'm also interested in. Once squads takes a few casualties the tables turn, and the Tacticals begin to beat out the Sternguard against the lighter targets as well.
RFrange w/4 casualties.
STERN--------5.3------------3.8-----------5.3-----------3.5 Sternguard degrade faster, and the Tacticals last longer.
TAC------------5.7------------3.6*---------5.6-----------4.8
*Overcharge Plasma------3.97
And here's the other part I'm interested in, 10 Sternguard with just Special Issue Bolters. (180 points)
If we look at just their Bolters, they do good work against lighter targets. If you compare the last chart with the top Sternguard chart in Rapid Fire range, you see that the additional damage your squad is doing against MEQ and higher target categories is largely because of the Grav Cannons. If the Grav Cannons are doing the work, why take Sternguard over Devastators? Is the incentive behind Special Issue Bolters to bring GEQ killing power to the rest of the squad? The problem with that is:
Your squad costs 196. That's worth 15 normal Space Marines, which is 195. 15 x .666 x .666 x .666 x 2 (rapid fire) = 8.86 A tie with the Sternguard against GEQ. Just as effective against GEQ, but with almost twice the number of wounds. Point for point, basic Space Marines kill GEQ as good as the Sternguard do, and last longer. The basic marine increases the longevity of a Tactical Squad and does the same task as the specialization of the Sternguard. Fun fact: As three squads, if 3 of them throw Frag it's 10.5 kills, well ahead of the Sternguard. Sternguard don't really have this option because it's always better for them to shoot their bolter.
The proposed Sternguard squad does do better damage at range, but again, it's not veterans with bolters doing the work, its the Grav Cannons. If you're going to operate at longer ranges, why wouldn't you get Devastators instead? At range you're wasting the damage potential of the expensive models/bolters, imo.
So in conclusion, Sternguard are cool, but as a squad they're more specialized than they appear. They're good at killing light to medium infantry, but you're paying more for a squad that degrades faster, dies faster, and specializes in killing lower point models. The Tacs more effectively shield the specials and heavy weapons, and the bolter guys can passively achieve the thing that you pay 4 pts. for Sternguard to specialize in.
And this is all just the numbers, buying troops to get CPs is good, having ObSec (even if you don't value it like I do) is also still an advantage.
Feel free to take Sternguard. They concentrate anti infantry firepower a little better. Maybe Lias and the Raptors (?) Chapter Tactics improve them more somehow. But looking at the numbers, I favor Tacticals for my UM.
In summary he like his veterans, and I like my basic marines. He seems to hate that I like basic marines. This Assault Squad thread is spawned because of that. Admittedly, I can't defend the Assault Squad as well, as their gear options are significantly more limited. I don't think they're useless, but they are much more edge-case.
To CREEEEEEED, I can give you tips about Sternguard + Lias via PM or you can just make a general post in the SM Tactica. I'm usually responsive in there.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I feel like if the Chainaxe were available to units other than Berzerkers this might be a slightly different conversation.
I have no numbers to back that up other than the vague assumption that giving most assault units +1 S and -1 AP would markedly improve their performance.
Why Berzerkers are the only ones to recognize the value of the Chainaxe is...unclear to me. Fluffy illogically fluffy fluffers is probably the reasons.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Actually this is all on GW. As someone completely into the fluff and narrative, I would be fine letting a Raptor unit have chainaxes. In fact, if we're playing Narrative or Open Play, this is just sort of the house-rule change that I think would improve, rather than harm, the fluff. Especially if they have Mark of Khorne!
Not sure how it would change things in matched play, but I'd personally be ok with it there too. I just can't speak for my group on that.
Insectum7 wrote: 1. I responded to your better Sternguard Squad post yesterday. Go check it out.
What thread is this? I've been thinking about a Lias and 3x Sternguard list.
Over in Proposed Rules "Proposed "fix" to Bolt Weapons", of all things. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/743674.page It went off topic over there. Slayer appears to run Sternguard/Lias as well, so you may as well ask him about his experience. He seems to like them.
The Grav Cannon and Plasma Guns kill 1.2 each, or 2.4. The short hand was very understandable.
It was not understandable because it is incorrect. Grav Cannons do D3 wounds against models with 3+ or better. Average Grav Cannon wounds are 2.4. Granted, there's no Guarantee of a non-1, requiring another shot. However they do average more wounds, comfortably beating out the Sternguard proposal.
As for Anti Rhino, 4 Lascannons with one at BS2 averages 6.6 Wounds without the Cherub, Grav Cannons average 7.4.. A Predator with quad Las averages 5.1. Get that, in rapid fire range, a Tac Squad averages more damage than the Quad Las Predator.
I forgot about the Grav, my bad.
However, that was a poorly equipped Sternguard squad in the first place. I'm doing 8 Sternguard with 2 Grav Cannons in my main list (so that is 6 Bolters). It clocks in at 190 something (around 10 points more), but once infiltrated or brought in via Lias they actually do work. How much more work? Let's find out.
Against GEQ, your squad in Rapid Fire does 4.1 dudes with the Bolters, 2.2 with the Plasma Guns, and 1.8 with the Grav Cannon for a grand total of 8.1 dead. Mine instead kills 5.3 with the Bolters and another 3.6 with the Grav Cannons for a total of 8.9. Without Rapid Fire, your Bolters kill 2 Guard, your Plasma 1.1, and the Grav Cannon still 1.8 for a total of 4.9 Guard dead. Mine instead kills 3.6 Guard again with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 6.2 dead.
Against MEQ, in Rapid Fire your Bolters kill 1.6, the Plasma 1.5, and the Grav Cannon kills the same amount for a total of 4.6 Marines dead. For my guys, I kill 3 total with the Grav Cannons and 2.6 with the Bolters for a total of 5.6. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.8, the Plasma 0.7, and the Grav Cannon 1.5 still for a total of 3 Marines dead. My Sternguard kill 3 with the Grav Cannons and only 1.3 with the Bolters for a total of 4.3 dead.
Now I hadn't done REQ yet, so that'll be interesting. Against a Rhino in Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock off one wound, the Plasma non-OC 1.1, and the Grav Cannon 1.4 wounds for a total of 3.5 wounds inflicted. Two Grav Cannons from my squad knock off 2.8 wounds and the Bolters 1.7 wounds for a total of 4.5 wounds. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters knock out 0.5 wounds, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon has the consistent 1.4 for a total of 2.5. Two Grav Cannons from me do 2.8 again and the Bolters do a paltry 0.8 for a total of 3.6.
And of course who can forget about TEQ? In Rapid Fire range your Bolters inflict 0.8 wounds, the Plasma 1.2, and the Grav Cannon 2.2 for a total of 4.2 wounds inflicted, or basically two Terminators and a part dead. On my end I get 4.4 from the Grav Cannons wounding, and the Special Bolters do a spectacular 2 wounds for a total of 6.4 wounds, or 3 Terminators and a part dead. Outside Rapid Fire range, your Bolters kill 0.4, the Plasma 0.6, and the Grav Cannon still 2.2 wounds for a total of one dead Terminator and one wound carried over. The Grav Cannons do 4.4 wounds again and the Bolters wound one, which is 5.4.
Now I'm sure you have complaints. The first one could be that I added 10 points to my squad to do this. That's fair. That's only 10 points for more effectiveness and a greater threat range though (don't forget Special Issue Bolters having that delicious 30" range), and I know people like you like adding Power Weapons and junk so that evens out.. You could say it's less guys, which is also true. However, at LD8/9 I don't have a high chance of running away, and to be honest it won't be hard to kill another 2 Marines to accomplish the job. You could argue for overcharging the Plasma, but there was a reason people took little Plasma last edition and therefore you would need rerolls. For the sake of fairness I'd have to add rerolls too.
Alright, that's a much better squad. My first table was with overcharged plasma for TEQ and REQ, so redoing your table representing overcharge. Rerolls to hit are applied equally, so the relationships don't change. We'd see the same results winners/losers, every number would just be improved by 20% or whatever. No, I don't take power weapons on my Tacs. As for Ld, I play UM, so I'm 8/9 on Tacs to begin with.
RFrange___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN--------8.9------------5.6-----------5.6-----------4.5
TAC------------8.1------------4.49----------6.1-----------5.4 With overcharge, the Tacticals are still ahead against TEQ and REQ close up. You're paying more for a squad that kills 4 point guys better, while I'm paying less for a squad that kills 30(or whatever) point guys better, longer. The Tacticals are better at making their points back.
24range___GEQ______MEQ_____TEQ_____REQ
STERN ------6.2------------4.3------------5.4----------3.6 Sternguard are ahead at range across the board.
TAC-----------4.9------------2.9------------4.2----------3.4
But here's the first aspect that I'm also interested in. Once squads takes a few casualties the tables turn, and the Tacticals begin to beat out the Sternguard against the lighter targets as well.
RFrange w/4 casualties.
STERN--------5.3------------3.8-----------5.3-----------3.5 Sternguard degrade faster, and the Tacticals last longer.
TAC------------5.7------------3.6*---------5.6-----------4.8
*Overcharge Plasma------3.97
And here's the other part I'm interested in, 10 Sternguard with just Special Issue Bolters. (180 points)
If we look at just their Bolters, they do good work against lighter targets. If you compare the last chart with the top Sternguard chart in Rapid Fire range, you see that the additional damage your squad is doing against MEQ and higher target categories is largely because of the Grav Cannons. If the Grav Cannons are doing the work, why take Sternguard over Devastators? Is the incentive behind Special Issue Bolters to bring GEQ killing power to the rest of the squad? The problem with that is:
Your squad costs 196. That's worth 15 normal Space Marines, which is 195. 15 x .666 x .666 x .666 x 2 (rapid fire) = 8.86 A tie with the Sternguard against GEQ. Just as effective against GEQ, but with almost twice the number of wounds. Point for point, basic Space Marines kill GEQ as good as the Sternguard do, and last longer. The basic marine increases the longevity of a Tactical Squad and does the same task as the specialization of the Sternguard. Fun fact: As three squads, if 3 of them throw Frag it's 10.5 kills, well ahead of the Sternguard. Sternguard don't really have this option because it's always better for them to shoot their bolter.
The proposed Sternguard squad does do better damage at range, but again, it's not veterans with bolters doing the work, its the Grav Cannons. If you're going to operate at longer ranges, why wouldn't you get Devastators instead? At range you're wasting the damage potential of the expensive models/bolters, imo.
So in conclusion, Sternguard are cool, but as a squad they're more specialized than they appear. They're good at killing light to medium infantry, but you're paying more for a squad that degrades faster, dies faster, and specializes in killing lower point models. The Tacs more effectively shield the specials and heavy weapons, and the bolter guys can passively achieve the thing that you pay 4 pts. for Sternguard to specialize in.
And this is all just the numbers, buying troops to get CPs is good, having ObSec (even if you don't value it like I do) is also still an advantage.
Feel free to take Sternguard. They concentrate anti infantry firepower a little better. Maybe Lias and the Raptors (?) Chapter Tactics improve them more somehow. But looking at the numbers, I favor Tacticals for my UM.
In summary he like his veterans, and I like my basic marines. He seems to hate that I like basic marines. This Assault Squad thread is spawned because of that. Admittedly, I can't defend the Assault Squad as well, as their gear options are significantly more limited. I don't think they're useless, but they are much more edge-case.
To CREEEEEEED, I can give you tips about Sternguard + Lias via PM or you can just make a general post in the SM Tactica. I'm usually responsive in there.
The fact they're not in tournaments doesn't refute the math showing that they can outperform your Sternguard squad.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Can't Champs still buy Chainaxes? It isn't the squad but just curious.
Yeah, I believe it is an option for most characters and champions.
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The most obvious thing about Assault Squads is the fact that their Jump Packs cost 3 points, while Jump Packs are only 2 for Vanguard. Imo if ASM with Jump Packs cost 15 instead, they'd be more on par. For example, that would be 5 ASM with 2 Plasma Pistols at 89, vs. a 90 point Vanguard with Chainswords.
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BrianDavion wrote: I'd like to see assault squads beable to take bolt guns. that could make em a very differant type of unit
That would be really cool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 17:42:42
Unit1126PLL wrote: Wait so if they have 1 special and 1 combi per 5, that's 2 per five...
there's your niche right there. The real question is why you'd ever take 10.
EDIT: Still unclear if they can or can not have plasma guns.
They can take plasma pistols. Raptors can take plasma guns (+ a combi on the champion). Not sure why they're different, but Raptors aren't exactly great either (they are firmly in the "ok" category).
A 5 man raptor drops with nurgle icons can put a nice LD debuff on a existing combat. Take nightlords and you are looking at -3 LD per raptor unit and up to -5 LD with two other nightlord squads in close proxy. Problem is you actually need to do wounds so they cant do much in melee on their own. But you can keep them cheapish and drop em with melta for multi task. Im not a NL player but -5 LD is not to be scoffed at. You can also combo with slanneshi heralds for some nice mortal wound generation. Forge world also has Malignatas cannons on several units that wound on leadership. How this all works on the table? who knows. And this thread is about assault marines but I had to say that you cannot compare AM's to Raptors,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 09:04:17
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm actually considering trying out a 5-man squad with 3 plasma pistols. I'm sure they won't be very good, but they could be interesting in a casual game.
I use that loadout to mess with my friends broadside lol
p5freak wrote: I dont know about regular SM, but BA assault squad can use plasmaguns, meltas and flamethrowers, 2 models in a 5 model unit. Doesnt change when there are 10 models. And of course BA specific inferno pistols and the regular pistols. They can use one eviscerator for every 5 models, so two for 10 models. The sarge may pick a combat shield and melta bombs.
Sounds reasonable and is in line with former incarnation of the BA codex such as in 5th ed.
As a BA player, I'm interested in fielding Assault Marines and, of course, DC.
Will DC be the new black? I dont have the codex yet.
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TwinPoleTheory wrote: I feel like if the Chainaxe were available to units other than Berzerkers this might be a slightly different conversation.
I have no numbers to back that up other than the vague assumption that giving most assault units +1 S and -1 AP would markedly improve their performance.
Why Berzerkers are the only ones to recognize the value of the Chainaxe is...unclear to me. Fluffy illogically fluffy fluffers is probably the reasons.
They generally wouldn't be useful on a raptor squad. With only 1 attack base, the chainsword's extra attack will outweighs almost any benefit an upgraded weapon could give them, particularly when cost is factored in. You need at least 2 attacks to make the chainaxe pull its weight. That or let it replace the bolt pistol, like bezerkers do. Which is a bit more of a tradeoff on a deepstriking jumpback squad.
This is the same problem assault squads run into with the eviscerator, or plasma pistols suffer. One attack isn't doing much on its own, no matter how nasty of an attack it is. Unless you are targeting tanks with a multidamage weapon which is also kinda situational with melee weapons.
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wuestenfux wrote: Sounds reasonable and is in line with former incarnation of the BA codex such as in 5th ed.
As a BA player, I'm interested in fielding Assault Marines and, of course, DC.
Will DC be the new black? I dont have the codex yet.
Haven't kept a close eye on it so far, but going by trends this edition your best units will likely remain your vehicles. Honestly the unique predator would be the best units in the codex if they hadn't apparently given it a bump over the other predators.
That being said, DC were fairly decent in the index, so depending on pricing they could be quiet decent. You'll just be tossing them in a transport as they still lack, to my knowledge, anything making them more likely to charge out of deepstrike successfully.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/09 16:51:14
SilverAlien wrote: That being said, DC were fairly decent in the index, so depending on pricing they could be quiet decent. You'll just be tossing them in a transport as they still lack, to my knowledge, anything making them more likely to charge out of deepstrike successfully.
Death Company (and all jump pack units) can use Descent of Angels to charge on a 3d6 the turn that they deep strike. You can alternatively use Forlorn Assault to move+advance a Death Company unit up the table before the first turn (but after the seize roll so you know if you're going first), so with Forlorn Assault+your normal move+charge you have a total threat range of 24+3d6 inches.
I think Death Company will be fine without a transport.
to the OP in a tournament list assault marines are just outshined... but in open war and pick up games I have had luck throwing them in a storm raven, zipping them up turn 1 and dropping them out later in the game to harass or grab an objective to decent effect.
Descent of angels is good, but forlorn assault runs into the same problem that if you aren't going first, you will be a sitting duck even if you don't use the stratagem. Because you are still a fairly expensive squishy unit whose death will take a nice chunk of points from the army. It's the same issue with infiltrating AL bezerkers, it's often just more practical to use a vehicle.
But they do have the one stratagem so that's nice for a big unit.
Descent of angels is good, but forlorn assault runs into the same problem that if you aren't going first, you will be a sitting duck even if you don't use the stratagem. Because you are still a fairly expensive squishy unit whose death will take a nice chunk of points from the army. It's the same issue with infiltrating AL bezerkers, it's often just more practical to use a vehicle.
But they do have the one stratagem so that's nice for a big unit.
Well, if people are using LOS blocking terrain to their advantage (why wouldn't you?) than it becomes less of an issue. The tables I play on aren't so barren you can't hide a 10 man (or more) unit begind something. That also allows you to use the 1 CP strategem to teleport a Jump Pack unit so they are just out of 9" from an enemy unit. Not great odds of making the charge, but they shouldn't be the first units charging in at that point.
An Angel's Wing Librarian should be leading the charge to stop Overwatch, followed by a 3D6 charge from your other DC unit, followed by the unit that teleported. So no, a vehicle isn't more practical when you can teleport essentially anywhere with your Jump Pack DC. Nothing else has that kind of mobility.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And even than, Assault Marines become fairly decent with Unleash Rage and as the first wave (well second after the Librarian), to eat up Overwatch shots against anything the Librarian couldn't hit with his charge. I would rather my Assault Marines take the Overwatch from anything that auto hits over my Vanguard or Death Company.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 20:58:48
Assault Marines do ONE thing better than Vanguard Veterans; fill up the 3 mandatory fast attack slots in a Brigade.
But I would only consider doing this in my BA army, where:
1.) the stratagems are so good (and necessary) that it may well be worth it to build for a brigade simply to have those 3 extra CP's, AND...
2.) the red thirst compliments beautifully the (limited but cheap) volume attacks that Assault Marines have, AND...
3.) you can put plasma guns on 2 dudes, essentially running them as a mobile midfield firing platform with ablative wounds.
In short, I think I would ONLY consider Assault Marines in a BA army; and even there they are not particularly good.
The way I'm trying to think of assault marines in this edition are as Tactical marines (ie, I'm not sure I'm putting jump packs on them, but instead packing them into Rhinos)
Tac squads will be passed over in favor of scouts (for deepstrike blocking or snagging objectives) or intercessors (for midfield fire support)
Back in the day assault marines were normal marines that had an additional close combat attack and we're faster moving. Now unfortunately they have been outshined by veterans with backs. But that's because it seemed back then veterans were a waste, much like choosen for chaos are now.
For assault marines to really get some strength back something has to give. If vanguard vets are going to have all the access to the special cc weapons and sternguard get the special range then assault marines should get basic options. Like "replace your chainsword and bolt pistol with a bolter for free" or replace your bolt pistol for another chainsword for free or replace your chainsword for another pistol. That kind of stuff. Let them become masters of basic weapons. I could find a use for assault marines with bolters.
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