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 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
no flamers don't need to go down in strength. They just need +1 hit per 8 models or something.

Remove random hits from flamers
Add flamer rule: "When this weapon is fired at a unit, it scores 1 auto-hit for each model in that unit in range."

Bam.

Nah - thats OP. Though it might actually make drop pods viable with the blood angels double move ability . Sterngaurds with 2 heavy and 8 combi could basically destroy every model within 8 inches of them ahahahah.

 Stormonu wrote:
Slightly different tangent - would it be better if Plasma overheat dealt mortal wounds instead of instakill?

1D3 Mortal wounds for a Plasma pistol?
1D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma gun?
2D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma cannon?

I like the idea of mortal wounds instead of instakill, but those numbers need tweaking - one overloaded plasma cannon incinerates a whole 10-man squad? Really?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
no flamers don't need to go down in strength. They just need +1 hit per 8 models or something.

Remove random hits from flamers
Add flamer rule: "When this weapon is fired at a unit, it scores 1 auto-hit for each model in that unit in range."

Bam.

Nah - thats OP. Though it might actually make drop pods viable with the blood angels double move ability . Sterngaurds with 2 heavy and 8 combi could basically destroy every model within 8 inches of them ahahahah.

I definitely don't see it being OP. It would make them much less effective against elite/single models, and much more effective against hordes, which is honestly how it should be.

Also BA don't have a double move ability that would work like that.

 Blackie wrote:
Plasmas are not overpowered at all. The easy combination plasma plus re-rolls of 1s and/or free deep strike is broken.

Let's just kill the model on the result of a 1 if he overcharded and limit deep strike to a few units. In fact the access of free deep strike to tons of units is one of the major problems of 8th edition.

Deep strike is actually very weak in most cases. So that's not the problem. It's big guns like plasma on cheap, expendable models. Marines can't abuse this nearly as well as scions.

Plasma is not overpowered at all any more. The one great place to get it for cheap is gone. Imperial Guard and Elysians with BS3+ now pay 6 points more than before the codex and Chapter Approved.

I take almost zero plasma guns these days.

 ph34r wrote:
Plasma is not overpowered at all any more. The one great place to get it for cheap is gone. Imperial Guard and Elysians with BS3+ now pay 6 points more than before the codex and Chapter Approved.

I take almost zero plasma guns these days.

Probably still too cheap for what it can do.

Martel732 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Plasma is not overpowered at all any more. The one great place to get it for cheap is gone. Imperial Guard and Elysians with BS3+ now pay 6 points more than before the codex and Chapter Approved.

I take almost zero plasma guns these days.

Probably still too cheap for what it can do.

Yeah, taking 0 isn't a good choice.

Martel732 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Plasmas are not overpowered at all. The easy combination plasma plus re-rolls of 1s and/or free deep strike is broken.

Let's just kill the model on the result of a 1 if he overcharded and limit deep strike to a few units. In fact the access of free deep strike to tons of units is one of the major problems of 8th edition.

Deep strike is actually very weak in most cases. So that's not the problem. It's big guns like plasma on cheap, expendable models. Marines can't abuse this nearly as well as scions.

It's weak only for elite assault units because they are expensive ones and probably have to crush into expendable screeners anyway. For cheap assault units like boyz or kommandos or shooty units with plasmas deep strike is an auto take.

Units like scions shouldn't be able to deep strike for their cost, simple. IMHO the whole game should go into the direction of rewarding units embarked on transports rather than spamming deep striking units.

Plasma units end up shooting at the same screens. It is screenhammer 40K one way or the other. Plasma is just one of the factors. Non-plasma needs to be cheaper, that's all. And make scions pay for grav chutes.

Plasma is fine, because it ended up getting balanced out with the change to TvS to wound. In previous editions plasma pretty much wounded anything on a 2+ and ontop of that would ignore 2+ armor saves. The draw back, was it had a chance to blow up in your face.

In 8th, its wounding most stuff on a 3+ still allowing armor saves, and does not blow up in your face, if you over charge you are wounding T4 and below on a 2. But still can blow up. It all comes out in the wash. On top of that, all s6 and s7 weapons across the board got a nerf because of how wounding works now. If anything plasma is actually weaker in this edditon then is was in the previous. The only reason people spam it, is because its the best weapon to take. Flamer reach is to short, and its just a glorified boltgun and has a 33% chance of doing the same number of shots as a boltgun, the melta is a 1 shot high str weapon, that again is str, so most stuff you are wounding on 2, but you need to be point blank. Grav is lol grav now.

jade_angel wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Slightly different tangent - would it be better if Plasma overheat dealt mortal wounds instead of instakill?

1D3 Mortal wounds for a Plasma pistol?
1D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma gun?
2D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma cannon?

I like the idea of mortal wounds instead of instakill, but those numbers need tweaking - one overloaded plasma cannon incinerates a whole 10-man squad? Really?

Oh, damn - I forgot that Mortal wounds bleed over. I was going with the assumtion it only frags the model using it, but using the D6 in case it was in the hands of a character, monster or vehicle (basically, a multiwound model)

 Stormonu wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Slightly different tangent - would it be better if Plasma overheat dealt mortal wounds instead of instakill?

1D3 Mortal wounds for a Plasma pistol?
1D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma gun?
2D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma cannon?

I like the idea of mortal wounds instead of instakill, but those numbers need tweaking - one overloaded plasma cannon incinerates a whole 10-man squad? Really?

Oh, damn - I forgot that Mortal wounds bleed over. I was going with the assumtion it only frags the model using it, but using the D6 in case it was in the hands of a character, monster or vehicle (basically, a multiwound model)

Plasma guns causing D6 mortal wounds?!?! Ummmmmm yeah sure, i totally support this. Just ignore my 9 black knights that would be able to dish out 18d6 mortal wounds each shooting phase.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Slightly different tangent - would it be better if Plasma overheat dealt mortal wounds instead of instakill?

1D3 Mortal wounds for a Plasma pistol?
1D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma gun?
2D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma cannon?

I like the idea of mortal wounds instead of instakill, but those numbers need tweaking - one overloaded plasma cannon incinerates a whole 10-man squad? Really?

Oh, damn - I forgot that Mortal wounds bleed over. I was going with the assumtion it only frags the model using it, but using the D6 in case it was in the hands of a character, monster or vehicle (basically, a multiwound model)

Plasma guns causing D6 mortal wounds?!?! Ummmmmm yeah sure, i totally support this. Just ignore my 9 black knights that would be able to dish out 18d6 mortal wounds each shooting phase.

Yeah, to themselves, on overheat. Re-read the proposal. It's too punishing, not OP.

That said, D6/2D6 mortal wounds to the firing model is probably too much even for vehicles - a lot of them have tweaks so that they don't actually instakill themselves with overheating plasma as it stands now. But for those that do still auto-die, it would be an improvement - risking death for most vehicles isn't worth it for 2 damage, but risking some damage might be.

Martel732 wrote:
And make scions pay for grav chutes.

This is a terrible, unfluffy, and unprecedented idea.

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And make scions pay for grav chutes.

This is a terrible, unfluffy, and unprecedented idea.

Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Oh I see it now. Honestly if it allocated wounds to the whole squad no, no one would ever take plasma again. The risk would be far to greater then the reward. Damage to the model itself is fine, but the whole sauad? No. Like I said, plasma is fine, if anything it's weaker then it was in the previous edition. The thing that makes it strong is the ability to reroll. Nerfing plasma won't fix that

Martel732 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And make scions pay for grav chutes.

This is a terrible, unfluffy, and unprecedented idea.

Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Make Scions pay a tax per unit if they wanna Deep Strike. A flat price would make MSU less appealing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And make scions pay for grav chutes.

This is a terrible, unfluffy, and unprecedented idea.

Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Make Scions pay a tax per unit if they wanna Deep Strike. A flat price would make MSU less appealing.

Primaris Reivers pay for deep strike. I'll love for Scions to pay for Deepstrike. That mean my Scions on Tauroxes Primes don't pay the same for being in a vehicle instead of deepstriking, so I can stop feeling stupid for doing that.

Yeah, it would be an improvement I think.

How much is Deep Strike worth? 1PPM? 2?

 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah, it would be an improvement I think.

How much is Deep Strike worth? 1PPM? 2?

edit: reivers should be 2 ppm for grav or grapple. i dont have the book on hand. but yeah they probably should be paying for it. (well whats the difference between a scion and say something comparable like vets? points wise)

 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah, it would be an improvement I think.

How much is Deep Strike worth? 1PPM? 2?

Deepstrike is a situational upgrade that depends on the context of the unit. Deepstrike don't has the same value to Mortarion than to a unit of Tactical Marines than to a unit of specialist that can carry 5 special weapons in a 5 man unit compared with a basic troop with no special weapons whatsoever.

I think Tempestus Scions should be made 2 PPM cheaper, and Deepstrike should cost 4-5 points per model.

Can we be certain Scions don't have deep-strike already folded into their cost, given that it is an innate ability and not an option to pay for?

They're 9ppm, vets are 6ppm, and I doubt +1 Armor Save is worth 3ppm...

Of course they have. And is very cheap for the amount of special weapons saturation they can have with Command Squads.

But at the same time, it punishes people that want to use Scions in vehicles, because as you said, +1 armour isn't worth 3ppm in a infantry model like that.

Martel732 wrote:
Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Right, sorry, I must have forgot that

Terminators pay for deep strike
Assault marines pay for deep strike
Battle suits pay for deep strike
Rangers pay for deep strike
Trygons and raveners pay for deep strike
Warp spiders pay for deep strike

Should I continue this dumb list any further? Almost nobody in the entire game pays extra points to be able to deep strike. Primaris Reivers. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can we be certain Scions don't have deep-strike already folded into their cost, given that it is an innate ability and not an option to pay for?

They're 9ppm, vets are 6ppm, and I doubt +1 Armor Save is worth 3ppm...

Scions quite obviously have deep-strike already built into their cost. It is ridiculous to me to think otherwise, should we ask that question of the dozens of other free deep strike units in the game?

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Right, sorry, I must have forgot that

Terminators pay for deep strike
Assault marines pay for deep strike
Battle suits pay for deep strike
Rangers pay for deep strike
Trygons and raveners pay for deep strike
Warp spiders pay for deep strike

Should I continue this dumb list any further? Almost nobody in the entire game pays extra points to be able to deep strike. Primaris Reivers. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can we be certain Scions don't have deep-strike already folded into their cost, given that it is an innate ability and not an option to pay for?

They're 9ppm, vets are 6ppm, and I doubt +1 Armor Save is worth 3ppm...

Scions quite obviously have deep-strike already built into their cost. It is ridiculous to me to think otherwise, should we ask that question of the dozens of other free deep strike units in the game?

I dont have my book on hand but dont assault marines get a discount if they take their packs off?

its just a little something something

also i didnt think rangers deep struck but infiltrated.

 Desubot wrote:


also i didnt think rangers deep struck but infiltrated.

same thing

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Right, sorry, I must have forgot that

Terminators pay for deep strike
Assault marines pay for deep strike
Battle suits pay for deep strike
Rangers pay for deep strike
Trygons and raveners pay for deep strike
Warp spiders pay for deep strike

Should I continue this dumb list any further? Almost nobody in the entire game pays extra points to be able to deep strike. Primaris Reivers. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can we be certain Scions don't have deep-strike already folded into their cost, given that it is an innate ability and not an option to pay for?

They're 9ppm, vets are 6ppm, and I doubt +1 Armor Save is worth 3ppm...

Scions quite obviously have deep-strike already built into their cost. It is ridiculous to me to think otherwise, should we ask that question of the dozens of other free deep strike units in the game?

Well Assault Marines DO pay for Deep Strike to be fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kastelen wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


also i didnt think rangers deep struck but infiltrated.

same thing

NO it is not.

What do people think about the relationship between Tau and Imperial plasma?
Tau plasma used to be weaker but safer. It made sense fluff-wise and balance-wise
Now Tau plasma is weaker and less flexible. Imperial plasma is naturally stronger, plus it can overcharge to be a better version of it's old incarnation.

Would you guys still take Imperial plasma if it was just S6/7 instead of S7/8? It would still be hands down better than Tau, but at least it wouldn't be comically so.

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Right, sorry, I must have forgot that

Terminators pay for deep strike
Assault marines pay for deep strike
Battle suits pay for deep strike
Rangers pay for deep strike
Trygons and raveners pay for deep strike
Warp spiders pay for deep strike

Should I continue this dumb list any further? Almost nobody in the entire game pays extra points to be able to deep strike. Primaris Reivers. That's it.

What are you talking about? Several of those things are paying for deep strike. It is factored into their base cost, because it's part of their base abilities. Whether you think they pay the right amount for it is a different matter.

Talinsin wrote:
What do people think about the relationship between Tau and Imperial plasma?
Tau plasma used to be weaker but safer. It made sense fluff-wise and balance-wise
Now Tau plasma is weaker and less flexible. Imperial plasma is naturally stronger, plus it can overcharge to be a better version of it's old incarnation.

Would you guys still take Imperial plasma if it was just S6/7 instead of S7/8? It would still be hands down better than Tau, but at least it wouldn't be comically so.

I dunno i recall some people arguing for the assault plasma for hellblasters

besides. its a wee bit different for tau as they are more based on taking specific things for specific targets (like fusion for tanks/monsters(now)) plasma for elites, missiles for mid range, and burst for chaff. not that they are all equially taken or anything its just the prime concept before actual game balance.

imperial plasma for some reason became an amazing jack of all trades weapon. but if tau plasma became a jack then most of there weapons wouldnt be taken (or taken even less some how) also odd question how much is the tau plasma anyway?