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Daedalus81 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Many of the superheavies are now priced right out of the game. Four shadows words are more than a match for a single Warhound.

Are you sure about that?

Show me all the games that four Shadowswords are winning. Also, it depends who gets to shoot first, doesn't it?

Two overcharged balstguns...14 * .833 * .666 * 1 * 8 = 62 wounds or 2.4 Shadowswords.

Maybe the game doesn't boil down to you shooting first with the best gun you can grab without thinking about anything else

I don’t think it really does matter who shoots first.

1888 points gets you 4 Shadowswords with one set of Lascannon/Heavy Bolter sponsons each. If they shoot first, they overkill the Warhound with just the Volcano Cannons. The eight Lascannons and 24 heavy bolters don’t even have to bother.

If the Titan shoots first, it has two guns so it can target exactly two models. Through whatever combination of weapons it likes, it kills two Shadowswords.

The first Shadowsword fires. There’s enough of them to take a Superheavy Detachment, so they get Regimental Traits. Let’s make it Cadia, since that will increase the average number of shots on the Volcano Cannon to 7. When this tank fires, the Warhound’s Void Shields are a 4+. It’s Titanic, so the Shadowsword becomes BS3 and re-rolls to wound on the main gun. So, the Volcano Cannon does 7 x 2/3 x 8/9 x 1/2 x 7 = 14.52 damage. The two Lascannons do 2 x 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 3.5 = 1.17 damage. The Heavy Bolters do 3 x 6 x 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/2 x 1 = 2 damage. Total 17.69 damage - enough to drop the Warhound down to a 5+ Void Shield.

The second Shadowsword fires. The Volcano Cannon does 7 x 2/3 x 8/9 x 2/3 x 7 = 19.36 damage. The Warhound is dead before the secondary weapons even fire.

Alternatively, 2020 points gets you 5 naked Shadowswords, which will do it easily, even if they go second. Hell, 1616 points gets you 4 naked Shadowswords, which still overkill the Warhound in one turn even if they go second!

Show me the complaints on these: Imperial Knights, Wraithknights, Lords of Skulls, Stormsurges

Also the Lord of Skulls went up in points.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. The complaints about superheavies becoming normalised, the Apocalypse-ification of the normal game and the general up-scaling of 40k has been going on for a long time before 8th. Surely you’re not disputing that people have been complaining about that?

Ya got me. Warhounds should totally be less points since people are taking multiple titan killing super heavies regularly.

I wonder what people will say if IG tanks get upped in points? GW only did that because they wanted to sell something else? FW sales dropped too low? How will we justify our impotent rage?

I was just looking into the maths around the dispute of whether ‘four Shadowswords are more than a match for a Warhound’. While it turns out that this is certainly true, I didn’t say anything else on the subject.

People will say what people will say because people are jerks and that isn’t going to change. This site seems to have more people that are... ahem, determined in their hatred of GW, but it’s the internet - the most common people who will bother posting here are most likely to be the unhappy ones, followed by the interested ones, followed by the happy ones, followed by everybody else. It’s just the nature of forums and social media.

I think what really stings people is the double standard: Guard players can bring superheavy tanks to any game of 404 points or more, whereas the equivalent models in a lot of other armies just got sidelined to very specific game types. Pick a standard and stick to it: either say models this big are for open play and apocalypse only, or let everyone play with all their toys all the time.

I also think it’s an almost spitefully misguided decision to stack points on to some models to remove them from matched play rather than just saying ‘this model is apocalypse only’. Sure, they achieve the same result of removing them from matched play, but the latter also screws them over for other play types.

kombatwombat wrote:

I also think it’s an almost spitefully misguided decision to stack points on to some models to remove them from matched play rather than just saying ‘this model is apocalypse only’. Sure, they achieve the same result of removing them from matched play, but the latter also screws them over for other play types.

We don't know if it was GW's main studio or Forgeworlds own that made the point corrections for the FW entries, and we don't know why they seemingly nerfed some units out of competetive play. But it is clearly disadvantageous that GW has two non-communicating rule-publishing entities.

OK here is the thing someone needs to explain to me. It's not just the fact that my Revenant Titan is now only 372 points cheaper then a Phantom, which has almost twice the wounds and way better weaponry. To me it that fact that they nerfed the everything about it when they released the new book by Forge world. Example the way the shielding works, the change in the guns heck the guns have a lower strength rating then a Wraithnight, etc. then after nerfing it down to a heavy Wriathnight, FW's work, GW comes along and nukes it with a point raise from hell. And yes I will admit to some saltiness here but to put it at the same points value as a scout titan but not similar in weapons, the Revenant has heavy weapons not macro, just feels like a hate crime.