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Made in us
Clousseau




Thats exactly how our campaign works. You get X number of upgrades and resources you own give you more, but we use PL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thats exactly how our campaign works. You get X number of upgrades and resources you own give you more, but we use PL.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/05 14:11:28


 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 MinMax wrote:
Power Level heavily rewards certain armies over others, as has been mentioned several times. My community gave Power Level an earnest try, but with Necrons and other armies with few upgrades, it just seemed unfair.


Point system games do the same, but with different armies.

It seems unfair because you're used with point based games and didn't know anything else before. Players coming from AoS, for example, and trying 40k PL for the first time don't really have the same feeling.

Go to some tournaments using PL and see what happens in reality. Of course there will be people maxing out their lists with PL system - exactly like they do with point system. When everyone use the same system, know how to handle it and come ready on a competitive level, it's really not that different in the end. It's just a different way of building your list, that is all.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/06 00:31:49


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I don’t participate in tournaments. I initially disliked PL because of the lack of granularity, but I’ve grown to love it and now prefer it over points. People frequently make mistakes in their army construction when using a points based system and that frustrates me. Power level is better suited to the occasional pick up games that I get to play.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Anyone playing with PL is in the wrong hobby IMHO.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anyone playing with PL is in the wrong hobby IMHO.


Agreed. You cant squeeze the "power" of a unit in one number. There are units with 20 possible weapon options.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




And to think that in the 80s and 90s we were playing without points in much more complicated systems and we were all fine and things were great.

And today you're told you're in the wrong hobby if you aren't using granular points.

Lol.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





 auticus wrote:
And to think that in the 80s and 90s we were playing without points in much more complicated systems and we were all fine and things were great.


Except the game wasn't nearly as big, and in the 80's you had a fistfull of models on a lunch table.

You know we used to rub sticks together to make fires, too. But I'd much rather have a cigarette lighter or matches.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Except that really is not how any of the games I played in the 80s and 90s were.

My first introduction to tabletop games was a middle ages ruleset and we had about 200 models per side and the table was about 10' long by 4' wide. There was no points values used at all. That was 1988. And most of the games I played since then were comparable.

This nonsense about granular points or you're playing wrong is trollish garbage. Its perfectly fine to prefer granular points. But don't try to push your preference that everyone else is somehow wrong for not wanting to play that way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/06 19:51:11


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anyone playing with PL is in the wrong hobby IMHO.


Agreed. You cant squeeze the "power" of a unit in one number. There are units with 20 possible weapon options.


I'd be curious to see how PL worked if a unit could only be built with what comes in a box of that unit. Probably no better, but it seems interesting and along the lines of what PL is trying to accomplish in the first place.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anyone playing with PL is in the wrong hobby IMHO.


Anyone wanting to play competitively is playing the wrong game IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:
p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anyone playing with PL is in the wrong hobby IMHO.


Agreed. You cant squeeze the "power" of a unit in one number. There are units with 20 possible weapon options.


I'd be curious to see how PL worked if a unit could only be built with what comes in a box of that unit. Probably no better, but it seems interesting and along the lines of what PL is trying to accomplish in the first place.


Yeah, this is the thing. To me, PL is based around the fact you are NOT min-maxing options. So if a squad can have 3 special weapons, and the box comes with 1 plasma, 1 melta and 1 grenade launcher, PL is assuming you're taking 1 of each, not going to scrouge eBay or bits for 3 plasma. I long maintain that the people who immediately think "Oh boy I'm going to take every upgrade because it's all free" doesn't have the right mindset to use PL at all, because they are immediately trying to min-max it because nothing is stopping them. That last mentality is why you see PL lambasted, because it's the old saw of "The rules don't say I can't!"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/06 21:16:02


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





 auticus wrote:
This nonsense about granular points or you're playing wrong is trollish garbage. Its perfectly fine to prefer granular points. But don't try to push your preference that everyone else is somehow wrong for not wanting to play that way.


Yeah, don't sit and tell everyone that they're 'wrong' for pointing out valid errors in the Power Level system. It's all fine and good if it works for your cluster of buddies that are always on the honor system and have the exact same standard of play and attitude. Most places don't have that, most people aren't in private gaming clubs- most of us play pick-up games and at least one of the 2-3 I play every week are with a perfect stranger.

I prefer points. Based on personal experience alone, in a variety of locations- the people who say "Let's play power level" are either newbies with snap-fit box armies learning the game, or some slobbering scum-player that's trying to fit 2000+ points on the table against your 1500 points. These guys are what ruined AoS when it started, and in my personal experience they ruin it now.

You play your preference, but stop acting like the difference is negligible just because you and your buddies are honorable nice people. Not all persons have the luxury of playing against a familiar, friendly, honorable opponent. Not every army can be 'maxed out' to get the same result using the Power Level system, either.

The idea that the Power Level system is no different than the standard granular point system is demonstrably false.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in gb
Spawn of Chaos




UK

As far as the whole PL vs Points thing go I think each system has its merits and flaws, just like any other system. The sooner people realise this and develop some tolerance and understanding the better.

Like points and simply don't get on with PL? Then just stick with points. Like PL but find points don't match up with your preferred style of game then stick with PL. Like both for this different reasons? Great.

Sentiments such as "Anyone playing with PL is in the wrong hobby IMHO." or "If the primary tournament in your state is running PL, it's time to move." impact negatively not just on the community but also on the outside perception of the wargaming hobby. It is stand-offish, unwelcoming and only seeks to put people off the hobby in the first place.

Some of the comments and sentiments which have been expressed within this thread, and across similar threads on various forums, are simply disgusting and do nothing but show the ugly side of the community.

By all means post your personal experiences, give your opinions and debate the matter but learn to do so in a healthy manner.

In response to the OP:

I'd suggest arranging a few PL based games, give it an honest go and see what you make of it. You may enjoy it, you may spot shortcomings or you may simply decide that you don't like that style of play. At the end of the day it's down to what you enjoy.

As you can see from the replies in this thread opinions are mixed and it's a divisive subject to put it mildly. The only way you'll come to a decision on the matter is to try it out but if you started out with points based gameplay it may take a few games to get used to the nuances presented by PL.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/07 00:23:40


Apostles of Contagion (40K) - 1750 Points
Iron Warriors (30K/40K) - In progress
Farsight Enclaves (40K) - Planned

352. Infanteriedivision (FoW) - 3000 points 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





PL has its uses, it can be fun to break out for multiplayer games, but what we've found locally is that wysiwyg is a must at the minimum.

Armies with large upgrade pools need to be careful not to go overboard, for basic units like tactical squads it's not as much of an issue, but things like company veterans, chosen, and deathwatch veterans can get out of hand quickly.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


You play your preference, but stop acting like the difference is negligible just because you and your buddies are honorable nice people. Not all persons have the luxury of playing against a familiar, friendly, honorable opponent. Not every army can be 'maxed out' to get the same result using the Power Level system, either.

The idea that the Power Level system is no different than the standard granular point system is demonstrably false.


From my experience with PL tournaments and games (including pick up, yes), it is negligible. As with all lists, it's not just putting as many expensive optimized units in your list - it is about building a list that has synergies and a very specific strategy in mind. When experienced PL players meet together, it's generally the one using his list better (and with dice on their side, of course) who wins. Of course, some lists work particularly well, but we can say the same with point system after all.

I'm curious to know what is your actual experience with PL games and tournaments to say it's demonstrably false - if it's not just from what you've heard online from players trying to destroy PL system because they don't want anything else than points systems being used at all.


 WindstormSCR wrote:


Armies with large upgrade pools need to be careful not to go overboard, for basic units like tactical squads it's not as much of an issue, but things like company veterans, chosen, and deathwatch veterans can get out of hand quickly.


Not really. Some units have deliberate high PL values. Deathwatch Veterans are a perfect example : if you just take them with bolters, it's clear they're not worth their price.

I find it weird that people say you must play WYSIWYG with PL. Isn't that already the case with competitive point system, anyway ? For all the tournaments I have made, that was the minimum, be it point system or PL. It has actually nothing to do with which method you use to build your list, really.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/07 11:54:27


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





You're probably wasting your time.

Several of the people in here don't understand Power Level, and simply refuse to acknowledge that you build an army in a different fashion when using Power Level.

Rather than address that (as it woud take effort and they'd have to learn something new) they'll continue to make pointlessly incorrect assertions. The same tired nonsense you'll see pushed by someone who doesn't understand Power Level, and is somehow offended by people using it.

Power Level will change the way you build your army, and you will pay a penalty if you run min-max units or stripped down items. Solution? Don't run those. It's not a terribly difficult thing to figure out.

Don't blame a system when you refuse to actually use it. That won't stop the usual droning hordes from complaining though.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

Same game. Different things are broken.

20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Scoring Power Levels instead of kill points has been good in a couple of local tournaments (aka Geekfest).
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 Elbows wrote:
You're probably wasting your time.

Several of the people in here don't understand Power Level, and simply refuse to acknowledge that you build an army in a different fashion when using Power Level.


Ok, i admit, i dont understand PL. Please explain to me how a 2 model unit of company veterans has PL3, and adding a third model increases it to PL8. Thats an increase of 167% for one model. A dreadnought has PL7. Three space marines with boltguns and chainswords are more "powerful" than a dreadnought. Why is that ? I dont get it.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Simple. You didn't spend more than two minutes studying how Power Level is calculated. In Power Level you buy units w/ upgrades and you buy them in blocks. Basic mathematics will reveal this within minutes of thinking on it.

Is it your fault you're building a list incorrectly when using Power Level? Yes.

Go read your unit entry again and see how many additional models you get when moving up to Power Level 8. If you're not taking "free" models that you're paying for - that's all on you, and has nothing to do with Power Level. If that's too tough to figure out, than perhaps you're in the wrong hobby? Ask Bacon and he can tell you if you're in the correct hobby or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/07 16:59:49


 
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






 kestral wrote:
I'm thinking about getting out from under my gaming rock and heading to the primary tournament in the state. Come to find out though, they're running "Power Level 80, no unit greater than 30". That seems a bit goofy for competitive play, but my experience with 8th amounts to a couple of learning games (using points), so I really don't know. Free upgrades seem pretty broken, and I'm not willing to rip my figures apart to refit them with the most powerful weapon options. I suspect I might be so far outclassed I shouldn't bother - I'll be running something from the Index too, rather than a codex. Any recommendations?
Whats the tournament? You live 15 minutes from me and I have never heard of such a tournament so I wouldn't call it primary. I would be interested in checking it out if I can get the time off.

   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 Elbows wrote:
Simple. You didn't spend more than two minutes studying how Power Level is calculated. In Power Level you buy units w/ upgrades and you buy them in blocks. Basic mathematics will reveal this within minutes of thinking on it.

Is it your fault you're building a list incorrectly when using Power Level? Yes.

Go read your unit entry again and see how many additional models you get when moving up to Power Level 8. If you're not taking "free" models that you're paying for - that's all on you, and has nothing to do with Power Level. If that's too tough to figure out, than perhaps you're in the wrong hobby? Ask Bacon and he can tell you if you're in the correct hobby or not.


Its a very bad system, extremely oversimplified. You use the most powerful setup and the maximum number of models you can get for that unit, because weapon costs and number of models dont matter. It doesnt work with a very complex game like 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/07 19:03:06


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anyone playing with PL is in the wrong hobby IMHO.


Ah yes the usual overdramatic claim with no proof.

And nobody has ever shown some actual real life PROOF that PL is so unbalanced. There are tournaments with PL. Care to show some data they are full of maxed out upgrades and unbalanced armies? IF you are right that's easy to do. So if you claim then put your money out there and prove it. I'm waiting. Not holding my breath waiting though as I would be dead by lack of air before you would show those proofs.

Oh and here's dramatic concept: People don't actually NEED POINT SYSTEM WHATSOEVER to make good game to play with. Concept that has been used for DECADES in wargames. So if point level is required in 40k then...what? 40k players are genetically inferior to other wargamers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote:

Its a very bad system, extremely oversimplified. You use the most powerful setup and the maximum number of models you can get for that unit, because weapon costs and number of models dont matter. It doesnt work with a very complex game like 40k.


This misconcepted claim again...

Somebody, anybody, if you make that claim SHOW SOME PROOF FOR A CHANGE! Is that really such a weird concept? If you claim something show the proof. If I say sun rise from west tomorrow I'm expected to provide proof if I want anybody to believe me. Proof, proof, proof.

I have lost count I have heard that claim. Not once yet seen any proof though. What on earth is going on with all these claims and not one solid proof WHEN IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE! I could understand no proof if no tournaments would use it. No proof due to no data. BUT it is not the case! THERE ARE TOURNAMENTS that use PL. Therefore if this claim is correct it would be PROVEN. Yet nobody bothers to prove it.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/01/07 21:12:51


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

tneva82 wrote:

Somebody, anybody, if you make that claim SHOW SOME PROOF FOR A CHANGE! Is that really such a weird concept? If you claim something show the proof. If I say sun rise from west tomorrow I'm expected to provide proof if I want anybody to believe me. Proof, proof, proof.

I have lost count I have heard that claim. Not once yet seen any proof though. What on earth is going on with all these claims and not one solid proof WHEN IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE! I could understand no proof if no tournaments would use it. No proof due to no data. BUT it is not the case! THERE ARE TOURNAMENTS that use PL. Therefore if this claim is correct it would be PROVEN. Yet nobody bothers to prove it.


I have already provided proof how unbalanced it is. Read what i posted.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







 Red Corsair wrote:
 kestral wrote:
I'm thinking about getting out from under my gaming rock and heading to the primary tournament in the state. Come to find out though, they're running "Power Level 80, no unit greater than 30". That seems a bit goofy for competitive play, but my experience with 8th amounts to a couple of learning games (using points), so I really don't know. Free upgrades seem pretty broken, and I'm not willing to rip my figures apart to refit them with the most powerful weapon options. I suspect I might be so far outclassed I shouldn't bother - I'll be running something from the Index too, rather than a codex. Any recommendations?
Whats the tournament? You live 15 minutes from me and I have never heard of such a tournament so I wouldn't call it primary. I would be interested in checking it out if I can get the time off.


Crossroads Games in Standish - it turns out they are playing PL only some of their monthly events, happily (The next is points). It just happened that it was every time I clicked on one it was PL in the new Edition, so I thought that was the only thing they were doing. I can just pick a month with points. What other regular tournament is there in the state? Is there something up in Bangor these days?

It sounds like PL can make somewhat different armies/units more potent, so that is kind of nice - but I've always been more about the low end of 40K, so I think I'd have a hard time making a competitive list with it, given a general shortage of special weapons, etc. in my figures. That is a drawback in tournaments generally, but if those units aren't "rewarded" by costing less, that is even a bigger hit.



   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kestral wrote:

It sounds like PL can make somewhat different armies/units more potent, so that is kind of nice - but I've always been more about the low end of 40K, so I think I'd have a hard time making a competitive list with it, given a general shortage of special weapons, etc. in my figures. That is a drawback in tournaments generally, but if those units aren't "rewarded" by costing less, that is even a bigger hit.


It depends on what is the strategy of your list, actually. Just because you can bring any kind of special weapons in the unit doesn't mean it changes the profile of these weapons. Comparing with the cost in points in meaningless in PL, so it's better to base yourself on what the weapons actually do and how you want to use the unit in the list. For example, a unit that is here to grab objectives and is destined to move a lot, maybe having heavy weapons isn't such a great idea even if they are "more expensive" if you used the point system to build your list. Assault weapons may be a better option for the usefulness in game. Or if you want to have a unit destined to close combat, maybe flame throwers would be more effective even if those said flame throwers would cost "less" with point system. And so on.

Some scenarios may indeed use the PL value for victory points (especially the ones involving killing units), but not all of them.

Your collection is one thing to consider, sure, but I think what will be the most important is to assess the strategy for your list and the scenarios that will be played. It's not always about who has the biggest amount of big guns who wins, otherwise it would be a long time 40k would be a boring game, don't you think ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 11:59:21


 
   
 
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