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Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Diceman wrote:
Just a quick thought on the Alpha Strike Prevention rules:
I also feel that dice rolls to come in from reserve can be awkward and in previous editions I was always gunning for a reserve manipulation Warlord Trait or Steatlh in Ruins (good times).

My Proposal-
All the reserve rules remain the same. Units which can be deployed via a "deep strike" type of mechanism can be deployed to the equivalent of:

1) The accumulated number of turns that have passed in the game without a deep strike deployment from my army.

Example: In turn 1, one unit could be deployed via deep strike. I withhold the decision to deploy a unit. In turn 2, I could now deploy 3 units. Again, I withhold the decision to deploy. In turn 3 I can now deploy 6 units (and so on).

2) The number of the turn the game is currently in.

Example: In turn 1, one unit can be deployed via deep strike. I choose to do this. In turn 2, I can only deploy 2 units. I choose to do this. In turn 3, I can only deploy 3 units (and so on).

Do you see more pros or cons to this idea?


My Jormundgandr list has 8 units deepstriking with only 3 of them having a rule to deepstrike. 2 units (a prime and the red terror) are buffing characters that need to deploy with their buffee units (2 units of raveners (the taxis for the rest of the drop) and 2 units of warriors). Once the raveners deploy I have no way to get the rest of the list out of reserves.

Got a solution to that?

   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




Look.. alpha strikes are gonna be a thing because the current ruleset mechanics force it that way.

What needs to be changed is how the turn progresses to make these 'alpha strikes' less likely.

Hence it should be the way turns are done that should be changed.

Personally i found that an alternative phase activation system (APA) works quite well in this scenario.

Turns are done in phases and not in the whole turn.

Example:

Initiative: Roll for player 1 and 2, Winning player has priority

Movement Player 1
Movement Player 2
Shooting Player 1
Shooting Player 2
Charging Player 1
Charging Player 2
Fight Phase
Morale Phase

Fight phase can still be the same, Units that charged or declared charges during charge phase still atk first, but priority has first activation on charged units


This would make it much more difficult for alpha strikes to occur unless the player uses tactics to box in units and such, and this system would allow both players to plan accordingly during each phase of the turn

Edit: if you want to make it even more fair (because random chance is always a thing) you could also do the initiative roll for each phase, except for morale. This way the turn could turn either way and it's more of "am i gonna roll better than my opponent" than "he won the initiative, better think a bit more on what i need to do."

Also, to those who think that this would add more time to the game, it doesnt. In fact i tried this in old 7th edition and found the game went faster when this system was used, because the phases went more smoothly than someone taking a whole turn

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 03:23:23


 
   
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In My Lab

mchammadad wrote:
Look.. alpha strikes are gonna be a thing because the current ruleset mechanics force it that way.

What needs to be changed is how the turn progresses to make these 'alpha strikes' less likely.

Hence it should be the way turns are done that should be changed.

Personally i found that an alternative phase activation system (APA) works quite well in this scenario.

Turns are done in phases and not in the whole turn.

Example:

Initiative: Roll for player 1 and 2, Winning player has priority

Movement Player 1
Movement Player 2
Shooting Player 1
Shooting Player 2
Charging Player 1
Charging Player 2
Fight Phase
Morale Phase

Fight phase can still be the same, Units that charged or declared charges during charge phase still atk first, but priority has first activation on charged units


This would make it much more difficult for alpha strikes to occur unless the player uses tactics to box in units and such, and this system would allow both players to plan accordingly during each phase of the turn


This system also completely cripples melee armies.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
mchammadad wrote:
Look.. alpha strikes are gonna be a thing because the current ruleset mechanics force it that way.

What needs to be changed is how the turn progresses to make these 'alpha strikes' less likely.

Hence it should be the way turns are done that should be changed.

Personally i found that an alternative phase activation system (APA) works quite well in this scenario.

Turns are done in phases and not in the whole turn.

Example:

Initiative: Roll for player 1 and 2, Winning player has priority

Movement Player 1
Movement Player 2
Shooting Player 1
Shooting Player 2
Charging Player 1
Charging Player 2
Fight Phase
Morale Phase

Fight phase can still be the same, Units that charged or declared charges during charge phase still atk first, but priority has first activation on charged units


This would make it much more difficult for alpha strikes to occur unless the player uses tactics to box in units and such, and this system would allow both players to plan accordingly during each phase of the turn


This system also completely cripples melee armies.


I was playing a khorne melee army with this system (No shooting at all, footslogging). If anything it made it even easier to get into CC because i could change my units to counter the movement of his. It does sound like it would be worse for CC based armies, but it's not
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




mchammadad wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
mchammadad wrote:
Look.. alpha strikes are gonna be a thing because the current ruleset mechanics force it that way.

What needs to be changed is how the turn progresses to make these 'alpha strikes' less likely.

Hence it should be the way turns are done that should be changed.

Personally i found that an alternative phase activation system (APA) works quite well in this scenario.

Turns are done in phases and not in the whole turn.

Example:

Initiative: Roll for player 1 and 2, Winning player has priority

Movement Player 1
Movement Player 2
Shooting Player 1
Shooting Player 2
Charging Player 1
Charging Player 2
Fight Phase
Morale Phase

Fight phase can still be the same, Units that charged or declared charges during charge phase still atk first, but priority has first activation on charged units


This would make it much more difficult for alpha strikes to occur unless the player uses tactics to box in units and such, and this system would allow both players to plan accordingly during each phase of the turn


This system also completely cripples melee armies.


I was playing a khorne melee army with this system (No shooting at all, footslogging). If anything it made it even easier to get into CC because i could change my units to counter the movement of his. It does sound like it would be worse for CC based armies, but it's not


Surely it's worse for melee armies if they have first turn? Then your opponent would be perfectly countering your melee army's approach, falling back after your movement phase so that you can't follow up on him, etc.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




hence the initiative roll for each turn,but I'm contemplating if there should be a you can give the opponent priority if you win it.

It would add a depth of strategy to it

also..... the table area itself plays a vital role in this system, since your opponent cant just keep falling back. Believe me, people had tried that strategy, didn't work out too well for them when they were suddenly pinned into one spot with no escape
   
Made in nz
Commoragh-bound Peer




Shakesville

My Jormundgandr list has 8 units deepstriking with only 3 of them having a rule to deepstrike. 2 units (a prime and the red terror) are buffing characters that need to deploy with their buffee units (2 units of raveners (the taxis for the rest of the drop) and 2 units of warriors). Once the raveners deploy I have no way to get the rest of the list out of reserves.

Got a solution to that?


For those armies that need to rely on getting their buffy characters closer, (I've got a Nid army and I know well your pain, dude) perhaps the expenditure of Command Points could rectify this situation? I know the Aeldari have got stratagems to "Webway deploy" models from reserve for the cost of 1 CP per unit or 3 CP for 2.

To be fair, I've not broken out my Nids in 8th (not since the early sad days of 7th to be exact). I respect your viewpoint on how your army would get affected. My reasoning for proposing turn by accumulating turn is because in my play circle Deep Striking Obliterators, first turn charging Khorne Berserkers, Grav chute inserting Plasma Scions/Vets etc, are making 2-3 turn games happen frequently.

It is frustrating to try and get a fulfilling game which swings in momentum when an opponent can delete 1/3 to 1/2 of my army in one turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 06:26:37


Can you handle the jandal? 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






mchammadad wrote:hence the initiative roll for each turn,but I'm contemplating if there should be a you can give the opponent priority if you win it.

It would add a depth of strategy to it

also..... the table area itself plays a vital role in this system, since your opponent cant just keep falling back. Believe me, people had tried that strategy, didn't work out too well for them when they were suddenly pinned into one spot with no escape


Moving back isn't even necessary. Alternating phases means a pure melee unit has to play it's hand before the shooting phase. You either deepstrike or get close enough to charge. I take the 2" step back needed to keep you in charge range but with the worst possible chance to charge. My entire army sees what units are the biggest threats in the upcoming charge phase and I light you up with as much shooting as needed to reduce the unit to ineffective levels. You charge, I overwatch, lets pretend you make that 12" charge. Great. Your 2 models vs my whole unit. I kill you by weight of numbers or you die to moral.

Are you seriously suggesting that a unit of 30 boyz sent forward with da jump has any chance of surviving in any functional capacity an entire shooting phase before making a charge? A unit of Genestealers? Hormagaunts? Your full of crap or your opponents are idiots if they ever let any of your melee units accomplish anything in an alternating phase set up.

Diceman wrote:
My Jormundgandr list has 8 units deepstriking with only 3 of them having a rule to deepstrike. 2 units (a prime and the red terror) are buffing characters that need to deploy with their buffee units (2 units of raveners (the taxis for the rest of the drop) and 2 units of warriors). Once the raveners deploy I have no way to get the rest of the list out of reserves.

Got a solution to that?


For those armies that need to rely on getting their buffy characters closer, (I've got a Nid army and I know well your pain, dude) perhaps the expenditure of Command Points could rectify this situation? I know the Aeldari have got stratagems to "Webway deploy" models from reserve for the cost of 1 CP per unit or 3 CP for 2.

To be fair, I've not broken out my Nids in 8th (not since the early sad days of 7th to be exact). I respect your viewpoint on how your army would get affected. My reasoning for proposing turn by accumulating turn is because in my play circle Deep Striking Obliterators, first turn charging Khorne Berserkers, Grav chute inserting Plasma Scions/Vets etc, are making 2-3 turn games happen frequently.

It is frustrating to try and get a fulfilling game which swings in momentum when an opponent can delete 1/3 to 1/2 of my army in one turn.


The way to put those warriors, primes, and other units in the tunnels is a stratagem. Also, making new stratagems to fix problems is bad design. Stratagems are strategic tools. Not baid aid fixes to problems in the core mechanics.

The thing is mchammadad is right about one thing. The problem is the games turn structure. Alpha strikes exist because you act with your entire army in a single go. Alternating unit activation (AA) fixes it instantly. I can only ever activate and utilize the strength of a single unit, maybe a character, and maybe a body guard unit depending on how the system is set up. And you can respond instantly to the actions of that small activation. Alpha strikes die instantly when your impact before the enemy gets to respond is reduced to a fraction of your total force.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 08:39:36


   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




Forgot to mention one thing bout the turn system

No overwatch.

Forgot to put that little bit in my previous post.

Since shooting armies have the means of counter moving during the movement phase, overwatch is not needed because of the extra counter play that happens.

Also, composition with this turn system would change, combinations of units (from mobs to deep striking units to high mobility units) will actually be more effective using this system because each unit would fill a part that is needed to bring the player victory.

Sure, you could priority target the units that are close to you, but while your doing that the player can use the other units and their compositions to effectively make you play to their game.

Strategy is never so simple, plans need to be changed and adjusted for each scenario, having a diverse army rather than spam units or relying on one type of strategy is key to both victory in this game and also having fun.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






mchammadad wrote:
Forgot to mention one thing bout the turn system

No overwatch.

Forgot to put that little bit in my previous post.

Since shooting armies have the means of counter moving during the movement phase, overwatch is not needed because of the extra counter play that happens.

Also, composition with this turn system would change, combinations of units (from mobs to deep striking units to high mobility units) will actually be more effective using this system because each unit would fill a part that is needed to bring the player victory.

Sure, you could priority target the units that are close to you, but while your doing that the player can use the other units and their compositions to effectively make you play to their game.

Strategy is never so simple, plans need to be changed and adjusted for each scenario, having a diverse army rather than spam units or relying on one type of strategy is key to both victory in this game and also having fun.


Nonsense. Complete nonsense. Alternating phases makes a longer range shooting alpha strike MORE powerful. Any short/mid/melee ranged units are crippled because they have to reveal themselves before the shooting phase. Whoever gets to act first in shooting (random or not) then gets to deliver the biggest blow to the other persons strategy based on the positioning that they just revealed. Tau dominate all others in this set up. Just line up some drones in the front and use guns lines and tanks to lay waste to whatever gets closest.

If Tau get to shoot first, at any point, the mid/short/melee ranged units can be picked off and reduced to crippled levels of effectiveness before they get to act at all. Your not removing the alpha strike. Your reinforcing it while building in a random dice roll to throw off strategic planning and tactics and leave it to chance to decide who gets to drop the hammer first. Did you decide to play a melee army with little or no ranged support? Well the dice roll doesn't matter then. The shooting heavy army is going to just gun you down before you get to act.

How anyone could think alternating phases would reduce alpha strikes is beyond me. You STILL act with your entire army WHILE knowing what the enemy wants to do. Did they move a unit towards an objective? Guess you know what unit is trying to grab a VP. Did the melee unit walk closer to your infantry? What are the chances they are going to do anything but declare a charge against the closest unit? Think it through man.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 09:28:51


   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

After playing axis and allies naval battles, I'm super sold on a "combined turn" that would be something like this:

Player 1 moves everything, declares and performs charges.
Player 2 ditto.

Player 1 shoots at things. Player 2 ditto. Damage is applied at the end of this phase. (So for example a tank you lascannon out turn 1 still gets to fire once assuming it was in range.)

Player 1 melees things, player 2 ditto. Damage is applied at end of phase. Some things like harlequins might have abilities like "quick strike: this unit's melee attacks are made before any other units and apply damage immediately instead of at the end of the phase, unless the opponent's unit has a similar ability, in which case they apply damage to each other simultaneously as normal."

Turn priority could simply shift from turn to turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 13:12:59


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Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 niv-mizzet wrote:
After playing axis and allies naval battles, I'm super sold on a "combined turn" that would be something like this:

Player 1 moves everything, declares and performs charges.
Player 2 ditto.

Player 1 shoots at things. Player 2 ditto. Damage is applied at the end of this phase. (So for example a tank you lascannon out turn 1 still gets to fire once assuming it was in range.)

Player 1 melees things, player 2 ditto. Damage is applied at end of phase. Some things like harlequins might have abilities like "quick strike: this unit's melee attacks are made before any other units and apply damage immediately instead of at the end of the phase, unless the opponent's unit has a similar ability, in which case they apply damage to each other simultaneously as normal."

Turn priority could simply shift from turn to turn.


So you declare and complwte your charges before shooting?

   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

Yes, similar to shadow war. I honestly think they should've done it that way with this edition. Cuts down on number of times you have to move a model each turn, makes pistols relevant immediately instead of only doing something in the melee after two turns of combat, and only if the enemy doesn't flee...

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 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yes, similar to shadow war. I honestly think they should've done it that way with this edition. Cuts down on number of times you have to move a model each turn, makes pistols relevant immediately instead of only doing something in the melee after two turns of combat, and only if the enemy doesn't flee...


The issue is that it hurts balanced units that want to both shoot (with things other than pistols) and charge. So all units become dedicated to one role. Either shooting or assaulting.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

Breng77 wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yes, similar to shadow war. I honestly think they should've done it that way with this edition. Cuts down on number of times you have to move a model each turn, makes pistols relevant immediately instead of only doing something in the melee after two turns of combat, and only if the enemy doesn't flee...


The issue is that it hurts balanced units that want to both shoot (with things other than pistols) and charge. So all units become dedicated to one role. Either shooting or assaulting.


Eh I don't agree. Those units still have the option to chop the shooty and shoot the choppy, which is still an advantage.

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The bigger issue s you have now flipped the situation and now melee is drastically over powered.

With a single unit of 30 hormagaunts, because of their 6" pile in, I can tie up well over 60" of space in melee (again, with a single unit). Unless your entire army can fly your options are a) get stuck in combat and never shoot or b) fall back out of combat and get shot without being able to return fire.

It EASY for nids with a single unit of hormagaunts to do this. It's not THAT much harder for orks to do similar.

And any other army with melee units will just spam them to shut people down.

And the winners of all this? Probably still the Tau. Mass FLY keyword drones screening gun lines coupled with FLY keyword battlesuits and FLY keyword tanks.

Sure you may have fixed the shooting you before you can get into melee problem. But now you have created the stuck in melee forever problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 21:08:51


   
Made in us
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 niv-mizzet wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yes, similar to shadow war. I honestly think they should've done it that way with this edition. Cuts down on number of times you have to move a model each turn, makes pistols relevant immediately instead of only doing something in the melee after two turns of combat, and only if the enemy doesn't flee...


The issue is that it hurts balanced units that want to both shoot (with things other than pistols) and charge. So all units become dedicated to one role. Either shooting or assaulting.


Eh I don't agree. Those units still have the option to chop the shooty and shoot the choppy, which is still an advantage.


Except right now they can do both so it is still a nerf to their current capabilities. Like shooting terminators become flat out bad because they pay for both guns and close combat weapons but can only use one or the other each turn, so compared to single focus units they end up overcosted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 22:22:20


 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I like the two character rules from the first post. The rest I dislike intensely.
None of the reserves rules suggested take scaling into account. You must consider how it works from 500 points right up to apocalypse of 20000.

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