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p5freak wrote:
You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is not to enable you to fire all weapons. The point is that it allows you to charge after advancing.

Weird then that it gives permission to shoot after advancing.

It also gives permission to charge after advancing.

It does both. You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is that it allows you to shoot and charge after advancing. The point is the exact wording of the stratagem, which just says you can shoot. It doesn't call back to the assault weapon rules, it doesn't say "You can shoot the same weapons you already can after advancing so we didn't really need this sentence at all," it says "can shoot."

Yeah. It is clearly intended to let you shoot all weapon types. You still get -1 when using assault / heavy weapons though.

The strategem let's you shoot, but it doesnt say "as if the unit remained stationary" or "as if the unit did not advance at all"

I still think it is strange that Blackknights get -1 on their weapons, which are designed to be shoot while advancing, while a regular biker can shoot the bikes bolters as well as his plasmagun, without any penalty....

p5freak wrote:
You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is not to enable you to fire all weapons. The point is that it allows you to charge after advancing.

Except the rule also says you can fire. If it only meant to let you charge it would only say charge.

Your argument is like saying you can't shoot after falling back with the Ultramarine tactic because the core rules say you can't shoot. This is a special rule explicitly overruling the core rule.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Weird then that it gives permission to shoot after advancing.

It also gives permission to charge after advancing.

GW is known for weird rules. Their choice of words is poor. The meaning is vague, unclear, clouded.

Jacksmiles wrote:

It does both. You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is that it allows you to shoot and charge after advancing. The point is the exact wording of the stratagem, which just says you can shoot. It doesn't call back to the assault weapon rules, it doesn't say "You can shoot the same weapons you already can after advancing so we didn't really need this sentence at all," it says "can shoot."

The exact wording of the stratagem does not give you permission to fire any kind of weapon type when advancing. Anyway, we are not going to convince each other, so lets wait until its FAQed.

p5freak wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Weird then that it gives permission to shoot after advancing.

It also gives permission to charge after advancing.

GW is known for weird rules. Their choice of words is poor. The meaning is vague, unclear, clouded.

Jacksmiles wrote:

It does both. You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is that it allows you to shoot and charge after advancing. The point is the exact wording of the stratagem, which just says you can shoot. It doesn't call back to the assault weapon rules, it doesn't say "You can shoot the same weapons you already can after advancing so we didn't really need this sentence at all," it says "can shoot."

The exact wording of the stratagem does not give you permission to fire any kind of weapon type when advancing. Anyway, we are not going to convince each other, so lets wait until its FAQed.

It doesn't need FAQing, because saying a unit can shoot means it can shoot. The Stratagem revokes the Shooting/Charging restrictions Advancing imposes. Nothing more complex than that. Nothing needing clarifying.

p5freak wrote:

The exact wording of the stratagem does not give you permission to fire any kind of weapon type when advancing. Anyway, we are not going to convince each other, so lets wait until its FAQed.

Well, just think of it this way, the stratagem is ravenwing wide, so it seems GW wanted players to use on a landspeeder vengeance after advancing, or on a Dark Talon, but what would be the point in that if it would only allow them to charge?
Allowing to shoot all weapons and charge makes much more sense, that way we get the 4+ invul for advancing and get to shoot all those weapons on such units like landspeeder vengeance

White scars have a similar strategem called "Born in the sadle",
Use this Stratagem when a WHITE SCARS BIKER unit
Advances. That unit can still shoot and charge this turn.

Heres is a link from gw saying that you can advance,shoot and charge and no mention that it is limited to assault weapons only:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/18/chapter-focus-white-scars-july18gw-homepage-post-3/

Space marine bikes(white scar bikes) don't have assault weapons at all, other than the special weapons that 2 bikers may take: meltagun and flamer are the only weapons that are assault and you may only have up to 3 such weapons in a squad of 8 bikes.

So if what you are saying is true, than this strategem should have been written like so:"Use this Stratagem when a WHITE SCARS BIKER unit
Advances. That unit can still shoot his assault weapons and charge this turn." But whats the point of mentioning assault weapons if you can shoot them anyway?

Note that this scars strategem was not faqed in space marines codex because it is absolutely clear that you may fire all weapons, any other interpretation makes no sense.

p5freak wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Weird then that it gives permission to shoot after advancing.

It also gives permission to charge after advancing.

GW is known for weird rules. Their choice of words is poor. The meaning is vague, unclear, clouded.

Jacksmiles wrote:

It does both. You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is that it allows you to shoot and charge after advancing. The point is the exact wording of the stratagem, which just says you can shoot. It doesn't call back to the assault weapon rules, it doesn't say "You can shoot the same weapons you already can after advancing so we didn't really need this sentence at all," it says "can shoot."

The exact wording of the stratagem does not give you permission to fire any kind of weapon type when advancing. Anyway, we are not going to convince each other, so lets wait until its FAQed.

lol

*Looks at rule that gives permission*
*Claims it doesn't give permission*

This isn't worth it any more.

@ OP - the stratagem instructs you that you are able to shoot with that unit despite advancing. Ergo, you are able to shoot with that unit despite advancing.

A quick trip to the FB page and asking your question may have produced better outcome.

Timur wrote:

White scars have a similar strategem called "Born in the sadle",
Use this Stratagem when a WHITE SCARS BIKER unit
Advances. That unit can still shoot and charge this turn.

Heres is a link from gw saying that you can advance,shoot and charge and no mention that it is limited to assault weapons only:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/18/chapter-focus-white-scars-july18gw-homepage-post-3/

Space marine bikes(white scar bikes) don't have assault weapons at all, other than the special weapons that 2 bikers may take: meltagun and flamer are the only weapons that are assault and you may only have up to 3 such weapons in a squad of 8 bikes.

Same applies to the ravenwing bike squad, three models may use special weapons, like flamers and meltas. Black knights have plasma weapons on their bikes. Can you guess the weapon type ? Let me give you a hint. It begins with "assa" and ends with "ult".
Some Stratagems are only for certain units, they are not meant to be used armywide. Born in the saddle and speed of the raven enable units with assault weapons (bikers) to charge after advancing, thats all.

Timur wrote:

So if what you are saying is true, than this strategem should have been written like so:"Use this Stratagem when a WHITE SCARS BIKER unit
Advances. That unit can still shoot his assault weapons and charge this turn." But whats the point of mentioning assault weapons if you can shoot them anyway?

As i said, GW rule writing is weird, unclear, vague.

If you look at Astra militarum codex you will notice that GW does provide more details regarding abilities that trigger after advancing when they are important. For example tallarn swift as the wind doctrine, they do mention additional details regarding which weapons you are allowed to shoot with after advancing and how they should behave:"..can advance and still shoot any weapon type (except heavy weapons)..".

Since there are no additional restrictions in "Speed of the raven" or the "Born in the saddle" its clear that we are allowed to shoot all weapons, the second one wasn't even faqed, probably because it doesn't cause any confusion with most players.

Timur wrote:
If you look at Astra militarum codex you will notice that GW does provide more details regarding abilities that trigger after advancing when they are important. For example tallarn swift as the wind doctrine, they do mention additional details regarding which weapons you are allowed to shoot with after advancing and how they should behave:"..can advance and still shoot any weapon type (except heavy weapons)..".

Thank you for finding something that supports my argument. So, you need special permission to shoot any other weapon type than assault when advancing. There is nothing about this in both stratagems, so its not allowed.

Timur wrote:

Since there are no additional restrictions in "Speed of the raven" or the "Born in the saddle" its clear that we are allowed to shoot all weapons, the second one wasn't even faqed, probably because it doesn't cause any confusion with most players.

If you read carefully you will notice that special permission is only needed when only certain weapons are allowed to be used after advancing, since this info was not included in speed of the raven there is 0 reason say that we can only shoot assault weapons

Just for the info, core rules may be changed by stratagems and special abilities, like the UM chapter tactic that allows to shoot after falling back. In faqs its written all over that certain core rules apply only if not stated otherwise.

Movement section of the core rules says you cannot shoot after advancing, there is no mention of assault weapons or anything. Assault weapon special rule applies on top of this core movement rule.

Stratagems says you can shoot after advancing

So the stratagem is the winner in this case

Hey everyone, OP here. Thanks a lot for all the answers from everyone. I think it's pretty clear that everyone (Except for that one stubborn jerk) agrees on the rules, backing up my previous assumption that you can still shoot after advancing with ANY Weapon Type, but that their normal penalties still apply. Cant wait to try this stratagem out with my Ravenwing Bikers and Dark Talon. Thanks again for all your help!

To clarify, using this strat DOES allow you to move, advance, shoot any weapon as if in the shooting phase, and charge after. This nonsense of "It only applies to assault weapons" Is bubkis.

The real question here is weather or not using this strat removes the -1 to hit from assault weapons, imo it does because it would be silly other wise.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
To clarify, using this strat DOES allow you to move, advance, shoot any weapon as if in the shooting phase, and charge after. This nonsense of "It only applies to assault weapons" Is bubkis.

The real question here is weather or not using this strat removes the -1 to hit from assault weapons, imo it does because it would be silly other wise.

RAW it doesn't because it doesn't say that it removes the negative, but I expect that to get FAQ'd. RAI it shouldn't be suffering the -1 if you can shoot the other weapons without penalty. It's something to talk about with your opponent until a FAQ comes out.

 doctortom wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
To clarify, using this strat DOES allow you to move, advance, shoot any weapon as if in the shooting phase, and charge after. This nonsense of "It only applies to assault weapons" Is bubkis.

The real question here is weather or not using this strat removes the -1 to hit from assault weapons, imo it does because it would be silly other wise.

RAW it doesn't because it doesn't say that it removes the negative, but I expect that to get FAQ'd. RAI it shouldn't be suffering the -1 if you can shoot the other weapons without penalty. It's something to talk about with your opponent until a FAQ comes out.

Thats how i viewed it as, its more of a common sense thing to me. Its pretty clear what RAI were for this one, same with stuff like the character targeting in chapter approved, where people are trying to say gak like, if mort drops to 9 wounds he can hide behind this pox squad.

p5freak wrote:
You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is not to enable you to fire all weapons. The point is that it allows you to charge after advancing.

If the point of the Strategem was to still charge after advancing, they would simply say 'can charge even though it advanced'

Advancing places a stipulation on your unit that says 'I cannot shoot, I advanced'
The strategem says that they can still shoot, which negates the 'I cannot shoot, I advanced' stipulation.
Which means, yes, you can fire Pistols after advancing, and Heavy Weapons at a -1.

Advancing does NOT put a stipulation on your unit that says 'I advanced, I may only shoot Assault weapons'

So the reasoning that 'The strategem does not call out that you can shoot heavy weapons' is irrelevant. The strategem does not have to call out Heavy Weapons, as the restriction is it lifting doesn't call out Heavy Weapons either.


As for the Advancing and Shooting Assault weapons, you do, in fact, still suffer the -1.
Here's the proof.
"Did you advance? Yes. Is there something that says you ignore the -1? No."

It was offen sayed, it means what ist weiteren. Nö Interpretin allowed. Ravenwing shoots and advances - no Like stationary or as If Not advanced. Just shoot. So my flame landspeeders can geht in the face of the enemy and shoot their flamers and Charge through the Cloud of Prometheum. No modifier modifications - No restrictions cause there ist neither mentioned


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was offen sayed, it means what ist weiteren. Nö Interpretin allowed. Ravenwing shoots and advances - no Like stationary or as If Not advanced. Just shoot. So my flame landspeeders can geht in the face of the enemy and shoot their flamers and Charge through the Cloud of Prometheum. No modifier modifications - No restrictions cause there ist neither mentioned

FAQ has now clarified that this 100% definitely does not cause Assault weapons to suffer a -1.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
FAQ has now clarified that this 100% definitely does not cause Assault weapons to suffer a -1.

To clarify, Speed of the Raven does not cause a -1 penalty on To Hit rolls when Advancing and firing Assault weapons. However, if using Intractable, you still suffer the penalty for moving if firing a Heavy weapon.

 Happyjew wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
FAQ has now clarified that this 100% definitely does not cause Assault weapons to suffer a -1.

To clarify, Speed of the Raven does not cause a -1 penalty on To Hit rolls when Advancing and firing Assault weapons. However, if using Intractable, you still suffer the penalty for moving if firing a Heavy weapon.

That was never in question, AFAIK. The only question left in this thread was some folk believing Assault was penalised. That wasn't the case, and is now 100% spelt out.

 Happyjew wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
FAQ has now clarified that this 100% definitely does not cause Assault weapons to suffer a -1.

To clarify, Speed of the Raven does not cause a -1 penalty on To Hit rolls when Advancing and firing Assault weapons. However, if using Intractable, you still suffer the penalty for moving if firing a Heavy weapon.

Glad to see RaW wins out in the end, yet again.