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Made in ca
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Lance845 wrote:
 John Prins wrote:
The tyranids might end the Imperium as an organization, but humanity can't be exterminated. There are a million worlds in the Imperium, and unknown more human occupied worlds, never mind space stations/colonies/fleets that aren't vulnerable to tyranid hive fleets via gravitational traction FTL. Much like the Eldar during the fall, there will always be people on the edges that survive and carry on. Even if the nids ate every naturally livable planet, humanity doesn't need planets to survive, or even to thrive.




Yeah? You think in 40k those isolated places grow their own food instead of having it shipped in from agri worlds and divided up as rations?

If the nids actually consume every world those isolated not planet or system bound structures are fethed to a slow starving death.


Of course they grow their own food. Hydroponics are trivial technology. Heck, from a 40K perspective, O'Niel or Vivarium cyclinder colonies are trivial technology. Every space faring race seems to have artificial gravity and air-containment force fields - the only reason to ship food to hive worlds is because you're stripping those worlds of manpower constantly, so you're shipping in food and turning that food into people that you ship out to other parts of the galaxy. Any station that's reasonably closed system and has the most modest of resource harvesting (the odd asteroid) has tiny resource needs.

Don't forget that even before the Emperor, the Age of Strife didn't reduce all of humanity to sticks and stones technology. There were still interplanetary and interstellar communities of humans - and there probably still are some out in the galaxy in the 41st millennium.


   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 John Prins wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 John Prins wrote:
The tyranids might end the Imperium as an organization, but humanity can't be exterminated. There are a million worlds in the Imperium, and unknown more human occupied worlds, never mind space stations/colonies/fleets that aren't vulnerable to tyranid hive fleets via gravitational traction FTL. Much like the Eldar during the fall, there will always be people on the edges that survive and carry on. Even if the nids ate every naturally livable planet, humanity doesn't need planets to survive, or even to thrive.




Yeah? You think in 40k those isolated places grow their own food instead of having it shipped in from agri worlds and divided up as rations?

If the nids actually consume every world those isolated not planet or system bound structures are fethed to a slow starving death.


Of course they grow their own food. Hydroponics are trivial technology. Heck, from a 40K perspective, O'Niel or Vivarium cyclinder colonies are trivial technology. Every space faring race seems to have artificial gravity and air-containment force fields - the only reason to ship food to hive worlds is because you're stripping those worlds of manpower constantly, so you're shipping in food and turning that food into people that you ship out to other parts of the galaxy. Any station that's reasonably closed system and has the most modest of resource harvesting (the odd asteroid) has tiny resource needs.

Don't forget that even before the Emperor, the Age of Strife didn't reduce all of humanity to sticks and stones technology. There were still interplanetary and interstellar communities of humans - and there probably still are some out in the galaxy in the 41st millennium.



It's not about how trivial the technology is. It's about how crap the Imperium of Man is. 1) tech is broken as feth in the Imperium. Thinking Hydroponics would be up and running in installations is wishful thinking. 2) It's not about the Age of Strife. It's about Post-Horus Heresy.

The imperium of man doesn't really understand how ANY of their tech works. They require STCs to build even the simplest machines and they don't understand the physics or tech that actually makes them work they only understand that the manufactorums produce this thing and when you hit this button that thing happens. At this point there is no world in the imperium of man that actually understands any technology greater then manual tools. Even if some stations were equiped with hydroponics, they couldn't maintain those systems.

You seem to not really understand just how gak the IoM actually is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 03:52:24


   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

And you seem to overstate it massively. Its like you take the worst of the IOM fluff and the best of everyone else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 04:13:42


Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Bobthehero wrote:
And you seem to overstate it massively.


It's not overstated at all. The mechanicum, the defacto best of the best in science and engineering in the IoM, has to appease the machine spirit because they literally don't understand how their machines work.

Why Everything is so Grimdark

"The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology. They haven't been living on some fancy paradise planet since pre-Fall. Mars is an anarchic nightmare shithole the moment you leave the safe zones into the kilometers of labyrinthine corridors beneath it full of rogue machinery, self-aware and malevolent AI from before the Fall, and the daemon programs of the Heresy. EVERYTHING in the databases is fethed. The databases are fragmented over the entire surface to the extent that it would be impossible to see one tenth of the total files in the ludicrously extended life of a Magos even assuming that they are completely safe to visit. And they are not.

The files have been corrupted into madness by the Fall, and the unleashing of the most potent informational warfare systems ever to exist to defeat the Iron Men. Nearly all of Mars was rendered uninhabitable, what they live in now is built on the top of the ruins. They send archeotech expeditions in to find gak, nearly all of them never come back. The sheer number of rogue war machine running around in there is sufficient to rape the mind. Then came the Heresy, which was not earth-exclusive. Mars as the second most critical planet in the Imperium was the site of fighting nearly as ferocious as on Terra, with Mechanicus loyalists and Hereteks fighting tooth, nail, and mechadendrite everywhere. Ancient machines were unleashed, viruses both normal and daemonic unleashed into all the computer systems. Towards the close of the Heresy, Rogal Dorn sent some Space Marine operatives to wipe the planet clean of all life. Nearly every single stored record on Mars was rendered unusable, and those that survived are half the time self-aware and don't like you, or daemonic and actively try to kill you.

If you come back with a schematic, it is almost certainly gibberish, and if it isn't, it's probably corrupted into uselessness. If it does come back whole it was probably malevolently fethed with so that instead of a Lasgun power cell it's a fething grenade set to detonate the second you finish building it. Why do you think they want off-world STCs so damned much if they had them all here? The fething Heresy is why. Off-world they only have to contend with the Fall's war and its effects on the machinery plus twenty thousand years of degradation with no maintenance. But at least off-world it'll probably just not work instead of actively seeking to kill you.

Why do you think they seek to placate the Machine Spirit? It's because it exists. The fragments of trillions of self-aware programs, flourishing during the Dark Age of Technology and shattered by Man in his war with the Iron men, imprisoning the few who had not set themselves irrevocably into the machinery, a prison smashed wide open by the Heresy. Everything that can hold programming in the Imperium has a shard of a program in it. EVERYTHING. And you'd better fething please it or it will do everything in its power to make your day gak. Sure, if it's a Lasgun it'll just not work or start shooting off rounds by itself, but if you piss off a Land Raider you can say bye-bye to half a continent. They apply these principles to things without spirits by habit, since they're so used to dealing with tanks that if not talked to just right might go rogue and annihilate the Manufactorum before they can be killed.

This is why they do not like ANYONE fething with technology, because it is so rare to find anything that just works it is critical it not be compromised. That, and they do not have the actual knowledge to feth with it intelligently, just through experimentation, which inevitably leads to slaughter. Pressing buttons to see what works is fine in a 21st century computer, but it is a very stupid thing to do at the helm of a 410th century starship with the destructive power to end solar systems. The entire knowledge base of humanity was lost. Not forgotten, but outright lost. Everything at all, poof. Nobody knows anything because the Fall fethed everything up and the Heresy double-fethed it. To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up. They don't have the time, they never have, and they never will.

This gets on to the point of war and what it does to technology. Someone will parrot that it makes it go much faster. Yes, it makes practical applications of technology go much faster. It also utterly stops all research on the scientific theories behind those technologies. This means that when war chugs along for a decade or two things get done. It means when it goes on too long you run out of theories to turn into technologies, and then you run out of technologies to apply. You stagnate. When you have been fighting in a war for survival in a drastically overextended empire, this is what happens. You are desperate for any extra materiel that can possibly be produced. Half your entire fething military might went rogue, smashed the half that stayed and a whole swathe of the logistical side of your society, leaving you with the tattered shreds of a war machine to keep hold of an empire that was reaching straining point with an army far larger. There is no time for the sort of applied research programs that took Man twenty five thousand years to develop, in a time of unprecedented growth and prosperity.

This is also why the Adeptus Mechanicus insists on cargo cultism. It's because when you are dealing with things you barely understand because everything you knew about them was destroyed it is the safest and most reliable option. The rituals do not exists for mysticism, they exist because they are the most practical means of building, repairing and maintaining the equipment they have with the knowledge surviving. You don't understand why pressing that button makes it go, because the manual tried to take over your brain and the copies are all unreadable and the research base that would let you reverse-engineer it does not exist and cannot be built.

Why are the Tau doing so well with their technology? Because they had peace. Eight thousand years unmolested by any enemy and they were helped the entire time by the most advanced biological race in the galaxy. Give the Imperium eight thousand years of peace and I can guarantee you it will be harder than it was during the Great Crusade.

Since some still don't get the idea, try this:

Build a library, fill it with all human knowledge. You take it elsewhere when you need a book from it, but the book is only a simplified copy. You don't understand the real book, and you don't need to. Nobody takes the real books anywhere because why would you, when there's a whole library there?

Now that library goes rogue and the maintenance machinery starts killing everyone any-fething-where near it. Where the feth did they all come from, you swear to god there weren't this many, and there weren't because they're using the library's information to fight their war. The government fights a battle that destroys the planet against these robots and tears apart the library to stop them using it, only to be destroyed in the process. The library is leveled, cast into flames, every book burned and every computer virus-laden.

Then comes a man who worked there. He talks to the few surviving library workers, assembles their information, and starts rebuilding a city around the library and expanding it as the librarians find little scraps of paper and fragmented bits of files that stuck together just right read something. They rebuild a library from scrap on the ashes of the old. It isn't a shadow on the glory of the old, but it is all they have.

Then the city turns on itself, kills its master, and the librarians turn to rage. Half of them kill the other half and destroy the remnants of the library because where they're going they won't need science. Everything burns, and the city is left to a scattered few survivors, walls open to the world, with the hungry predators circling.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is the sole surviving librarian, desperately scrabbling through the ashes of paper and splinters of hard drives for anything to help him and the city he needs to survive just a second longer.

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single gak decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a gak life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die."
--Baron von Evilsatan


That is a VERY accurate understanding of how the greatest technological minds of the 41rst millennium keep the machines working.

   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

What's the source for that? Seems like a nice bit of fan fiction, if anything.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






That exact quote comes from here.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus#Why_Everything_is_so_Grimdark

But the information comes from all the fluff.

Read more about The Fall, The Iron Men, The Horus Heresys effect on Mars, and the 10k years since.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Warhammer_40,000_Universe

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Chronology_of_Events


40k is Grim Dark as feth. You assuming that at any point you could look at any level of society in 40k and not expect the fluff to be written so that it's the grimiest gak hole is going against the entire theme of the setting. It's all bad. All the time. In the worst ways.


Grab the AdMech codex and give it a whirl. Pick up some Horus Heresy novels about Mars and enjoy reading about how gak everything was before it got way gaker.

Grab the last Tau codex and read the bit about the Tau capturing IoM vessels and questioning their techs about their Warp Drives and being shocked that instead of scientist and engineers they found religious fanatics and priests who were spouting off about machines spirits.

You must not have dug too deep into 40ks fluff if you think ANYTHING in the imperium is any good.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/30 04:39:46


   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

In your view maybe, I see it as grimdark, but not eternal hopeless black grimdark.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

You are exagerating to the extreme the state of the Imperium, Lance. Is obvious that the Mechanicus, in many ways, is taking instruction booklets as religious text. But they know how to do things.

Theres Biologus, cloning technology, etc... for a reason. Theres cybernetic protesis for a reason. Theres actual Ad Mech Forgeworlds that are CREATING NEW THINGS, even before Cawl. Yeah, they are a minority but they exist.

GW has said many times that the Imperium is TOO big. That theres worlds without any kind of techonolgy and others much more advanced that the typical Imperial world, etc... But at the same time GW has said many times that Warhammer40k is what you want it to be. So if thats your interpretation of the Imperium I'm not gonna say its wrong. Theres enough evidence to point you into that direction. But theres also other evidence showing other style for the Imperium.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 04:48:49


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Yeah?

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Cult_Mechanicus

   
Made in ca
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Lance845 wrote:

You seem to not really understand just how gak the IoM actually is.


Which is why I mentioned that there are non-IoM communities of humans out there who still have their heads on straight. Maybe with only 50th century technology rather than 200th century tech, but they only need 22nd century tech to survive basically forever in space.

Any space station built by the IoM is going to be built from STC templates, which will include hydroponics - or heck, just regular old farms on board if you really want to brute force it. Keeping the space station as a whole running is a bigger problem if the IoM falls apart, it really depends how much bootstrapping the AdMech on board are capable of with the equipment and STC plans they've got on the ship. If they can train and create new AdMech on site, they can maintain the vessel, and eventually build new ones, indefinitely.

Probably the explorator fleets of the AdMech have this capacity in spades, they'd be the best candidates for a pure space-born civilization should the IoM collapse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Yes, from the link:

"Quest for Knowledge
The ultimate goal of the Cult Mechanicus is to understand the Omnissiah. The communal and individual attempt of Mechanicus believers at this is known as the Quest for Knowledge, and the Cult's followers view this endeavour as paramount and more important than any other concern. Generally, the Quest is pursued through scientific and exploratory endeavours. The Cult believes that all knowledge already exists, and it is primarily a matter of time before it can be gathered together to complete the Quest. The Mechanicus' members are therefore disinclined to perform much original research, and they consider it more important to safeguard that knowledge which they already have accrued and gather more by searching for STC templates and similar lost pieces of ancient human technology from the Dark Age of Technology. Some original research does happen within the Adeptus Mechanicus, although the results of such endeavours are strictly quarantined for many years before being disseminated publicly."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 05:18:04


   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Also from that link.
Despite the never-ending thirst for knowledge of all branches of the order, most Tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus have lost the ability to innovate. No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of true discernment and comprehension. Even the theoretically simple process of activating an engine is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. Should mechanisms break down, as they often do in service to the Adeptus Mechanicus war effort, a replacement must be found, or knowledge of how to repair the existing one must be learned.


They have no idea what they are doing. The simple process of using an engine is not something they actually understand, just a ritual they follow that creates the desired results. They don't know WHY those cylinders need lubrication, they just know that without lubrication it fails.

Learning how to fix it doesn't come with an understanding of how the device works. They are too bogged down in the ritual of it. Understanding is lost to them.

That innovation is about slapping one bit onto another bit and hoping it works until it actually does. Again, no actual understanding of the principles behind it. Just trial and error. And then they lock it away for YEARS before they distribute it to make sure nothing goes awry because literally ANYTHING could go awry because they have no idea what they are doing.

Back to the point of those theoretical deep space stations harboring the supposed last of humanity... when everything starts breaking down and they have no infrastructure or support to get any access to supplies, it's only a matter of time before the machinery they don't understand breaks down. They are literally floating in space in a tomb waiting to fall apart around them with only the supplys they have to prolong that existence. No machine lasts forever and machines you don't actually understand... and nobody has understood for thousands of years... are going to have a pretty short expected life.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 06:05:40


   
Made in us
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds





Numerous books show worlds in the IoM that have been relatively well off, even perfectly good places for the average citizen to live before (plot) interferes and the heros have to save the day. Gaunts Ghosts shows us several worlds that are probably at very civilized and stable levels of tech and culture.

The massive armies and fleets we see in the codex background wouldn't be possible without worlds that have been able to exist, uninterrupted and peacefully in the background of the Galaxy wide plot.

The overall setting may well be grimdark, but that doesn't mean every planet has to be. Take Tanith (for instance) had it not been for the plot and a massive blunder by campaign generals, Tanith would have probably continued on its way for another several thousand years being a quaint, space-Celt place, that exports fine timber.

“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Warhammer40K wiki is not a reliable source of information.

The Adeptus Mechanicus still innovate, albeit slowly. The higher up the hierarchy you go the more understanding they possess.


Tyranids are powerful but they aren't facing a unified faction arrayed against them. Chaos is limitless and have had success against the Tyranids before. Tyranids have countered but just how affecting their new counter-Chaos fleet will be is unknown. The Necrons have consistently been portrayed as highly capable of facing the Tyranids and just like the Tyranids only a fraction of their might is active in the galaxy. Tau and Imperial forces have demonstrated their ability to create tailor made viruses. Plus a battleship is capable of sucking substantial portions of a fleet into the Warp so worse comes to worse they can suicide bomb them (or the Tyranids spread out to counter which significantly reduces their numbers advantage).
   
Made in ca
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Lance845 wrote:


Back to the point of those theoretical deep space stations harboring the supposed last of humanity... when everything starts breaking down and they have no infrastructure or support to get any access to supplies, it's only a matter of time before the machinery they don't understand breaks down. They are literally floating in space in a tomb waiting to fall apart around them with only the supplys they have to prolong that existence. No machine lasts forever and machines you don't actually understand... and nobody has understood for thousands of years... are going to have a pretty short expected life.


Any STC space station is going to be a self-sufficient miniature Forge World, especially if it's going to be sitting out in the middle on nowhere, rather than just an orbital defense station around a populated world. STC templates were designed by ultra-intelligent AI. There will be not only the equipment necessary to build every component of the station, but every component of the equipment needed to make more equipment to make the components. If the AdMech were able to build such a space station in the first place, then the legion of AdMech required to maintain the place can keep it going basically forever, because raw materials are not scarce in space.

None of this requires the AdMech to understand any of how this stuff works. AdMech have troubles keeping tech working that they don't have STC blueprints for, everything they do have the blueprints for they have no trouble maintaining or duplicating - that was the point of STC blueprints, after all.

And this all pre-supposes that there aren't any space faring human civilizations not part of the IoM, or that some alien race wouldn't assist human refugees and teaching them xenos tech. It is very, very, very hard to exterminate an interstellar, space faring race if they choose to scatter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 17:09:02


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





North Carolina

 Lance845 wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
And you seem to overstate it massively.


It's not overstated at all. The mechanicum, the defacto best of the best in science and engineering in the IoM, has to appease the machine spirit because they literally don't understand how their machines work.

Why Everything is so Grimdark

"The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology. They haven't been living on some fancy paradise planet since pre-Fall. Mars is an anarchic nightmare shithole the moment you leave the safe zones into the kilometers of labyrinthine corridors beneath it full of rogue machinery, self-aware and malevolent AI from before the Fall, and the daemon programs of the Heresy. EVERYTHING in the databases is fethed. The databases are fragmented over the entire surface to the extent that it would be impossible to see one tenth of the total files in the ludicrously extended life of a Magos even assuming that they are completely safe to visit. And they are not.

The files have been corrupted into madness by the Fall, and the unleashing of the most potent informational warfare systems ever to exist to defeat the Iron Men. Nearly all of Mars was rendered uninhabitable, what they live in now is built on the top of the ruins. They send archeotech expeditions in to find gak, nearly all of them never come back. The sheer number of rogue war machine running around in there is sufficient to rape the mind. Then came the Heresy, which was not earth-exclusive. Mars as the second most critical planet in the Imperium was the site of fighting nearly as ferocious as on Terra, with Mechanicus loyalists and Hereteks fighting tooth, nail, and mechadendrite everywhere. Ancient machines were unleashed, viruses both normal and daemonic unleashed into all the computer systems. Towards the close of the Heresy, Rogal Dorn sent some Space Marine operatives to wipe the planet clean of all life. Nearly every single stored record on Mars was rendered unusable, and those that survived are half the time self-aware and don't like you, or daemonic and actively try to kill you.

If you come back with a schematic, it is almost certainly gibberish, and if it isn't, it's probably corrupted into uselessness. If it does come back whole it was probably malevolently fethed with so that instead of a Lasgun power cell it's a fething grenade set to detonate the second you finish building it. Why do you think they want off-world STCs so damned much if they had them all here? The fething Heresy is why. Off-world they only have to contend with the Fall's war and its effects on the machinery plus twenty thousand years of degradation with no maintenance. But at least off-world it'll probably just not work instead of actively seeking to kill you.

Why do you think they seek to placate the Machine Spirit? It's because it exists. The fragments of trillions of self-aware programs, flourishing during the Dark Age of Technology and shattered by Man in his war with the Iron men, imprisoning the few who had not set themselves irrevocably into the machinery, a prison smashed wide open by the Heresy. Everything that can hold programming in the Imperium has a shard of a program in it. EVERYTHING. And you'd better fething please it or it will do everything in its power to make your day gak. Sure, if it's a Lasgun it'll just not work or start shooting off rounds by itself, but if you piss off a Land Raider you can say bye-bye to half a continent. They apply these principles to things without spirits by habit, since they're so used to dealing with tanks that if not talked to just right might go rogue and annihilate the Manufactorum before they can be killed.

This is why they do not like ANYONE fething with technology, because it is so rare to find anything that just works it is critical it not be compromised. That, and they do not have the actual knowledge to feth with it intelligently, just through experimentation, which inevitably leads to slaughter. Pressing buttons to see what works is fine in a 21st century computer, but it is a very stupid thing to do at the helm of a 410th century starship with the destructive power to end solar systems. The entire knowledge base of humanity was lost. Not forgotten, but outright lost. Everything at all, poof. Nobody knows anything because the Fall fethed everything up and the Heresy double-fethed it. To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up. They don't have the time, they never have, and they never will.

This gets on to the point of war and what it does to technology. Someone will parrot that it makes it go much faster. Yes, it makes practical applications of technology go much faster. It also utterly stops all research on the scientific theories behind those technologies. This means that when war chugs along for a decade or two things get done. It means when it goes on too long you run out of theories to turn into technologies, and then you run out of technologies to apply. You stagnate. When you have been fighting in a war for survival in a drastically overextended empire, this is what happens. You are desperate for any extra materiel that can possibly be produced. Half your entire fething military might went rogue, smashed the half that stayed and a whole swathe of the logistical side of your society, leaving you with the tattered shreds of a war machine to keep hold of an empire that was reaching straining point with an army far larger. There is no time for the sort of applied research programs that took Man twenty five thousand years to develop, in a time of unprecedented growth and prosperity.

This is also why the Adeptus Mechanicus insists on cargo cultism. It's because when you are dealing with things you barely understand because everything you knew about them was destroyed it is the safest and most reliable option. The rituals do not exists for mysticism, they exist because they are the most practical means of building, repairing and maintaining the equipment they have with the knowledge surviving. You don't understand why pressing that button makes it go, because the manual tried to take over your brain and the copies are all unreadable and the research base that would let you reverse-engineer it does not exist and cannot be built.

Why are the Tau doing so well with their technology? Because they had peace. Eight thousand years unmolested by any enemy and they were helped the entire time by the most advanced biological race in the galaxy. Give the Imperium eight thousand years of peace and I can guarantee you it will be harder than it was during the Great Crusade.

Since some still don't get the idea, try this:

Build a library, fill it with all human knowledge. You take it elsewhere when you need a book from it, but the book is only a simplified copy. You don't understand the real book, and you don't need to. Nobody takes the real books anywhere because why would you, when there's a whole library there?

Now that library goes rogue and the maintenance machinery starts killing everyone any-fething-where near it. Where the feth did they all come from, you swear to god there weren't this many, and there weren't because they're using the library's information to fight their war. The government fights a battle that destroys the planet against these robots and tears apart the library to stop them using it, only to be destroyed in the process. The library is leveled, cast into flames, every book burned and every computer virus-laden.

Then comes a man who worked there. He talks to the few surviving library workers, assembles their information, and starts rebuilding a city around the library and expanding it as the librarians find little scraps of paper and fragmented bits of files that stuck together just right read something. They rebuild a library from scrap on the ashes of the old. It isn't a shadow on the glory of the old, but it is all they have.

Then the city turns on itself, kills its master, and the librarians turn to rage. Half of them kill the other half and destroy the remnants of the library because where they're going they won't need science. Everything burns, and the city is left to a scattered few survivors, walls open to the world, with the hungry predators circling.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is the sole surviving librarian, desperately scrabbling through the ashes of paper and splinters of hard drives for anything to help him and the city he needs to survive just a second longer.

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single gak decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a gak life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die."
--Baron von Evilsatan


That is a VERY accurate understanding of how the greatest technological minds of the 41rst millennium keep the machines working.





First off, that bit of copypasta posted on 1d4chan (probably from /tg/, which is full of fanwank itself) is overstated and stale as all hell.


The primary issue with the Adeptus Mechanicus is the feudal nature of it's system. Every Forge World jealously guards whatever knowledge it comes across (even from Mars) to maintain it's position and prestige.


For the most part, the technology is there. The knowledge is there. It's just spread out among various Forge Worlds that are unwilling to share with the others. And a lot of knowledge and tech ends up just getting sat on for centuries before anybody does anything with it.

Innovation exists. It's just that dogma keeps it slow and steady. And in the minds of the Priesthood of Mars, that is for a very good reason. With the fall of Cadia, innovation and return of technologies once thought "lost" has been accelerated, thanks to Guilliman and Cawl.

Another thing is that not all Imperial technology is the result of Standard Template Construct printouts. Nor is the bulk of manufacturing located on Mechanicus Forge Worlds. Civilized Worlds have their own industry, as do Mining Worlds. And Industrial Worlds are called such for a reason. The only things different between the aforementioned classifications of worlds, and Forge Worlds, is that Forge Worlds are feudal holdings of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the Forge Worlds make the better (and exotic) goodies.

The Imperium may have been a giant pile of wallowing pig by the end of the 41st Millennium, but it was nowhere near shot. The Imperium of Man was still going strong, in it's own inefficient and corrupt way.

FREE TOMMY ROBINSON! 
   
Made in ru
[DCM]
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores





Wow-wow-wow guys, slow down on Necrons for a moment.
What made you think Celestial Orrery is a weapon?

Let’s read the first mentioning:
Spoiler:


It MIGHT look as a weapon, but on a MUCH different timescale than human operate at.
A star dying millenia before it’s destiny might be millions or billions years from the current moment.
And because it was built before the War in Heavens, it makes you wonder why Necrontyr required C’Tans and why there is no indication they used it to crush the core worlds of the Old Ones.

——Here I might stop for a moment to rant about GW’s approach towards the SCALE.——-
GW is constantly FAILING when it comes to the SCALE of ANY event.
Both Black Library and codex authors are APPALLING!

I don’t remember where I read it, but one of the BL authors ironized about it, saying that it is only the propaganda which makes you think SM and IG make any significant difference, while titan legions and imperial navy do all the work.

You guys clearly read fluff. Even the most grandeur events are severely undermanned and usually from both sides of the conflict.
The only books looking remotely real are those who DON’T focus on the logistics and warfare.
This is why my favorite author of BL is Dembski-Bowden, who tries to dodge battles, but he still fails when forced to, like in the “Master of Mankind”.

Please, if you know nice 40k fiction with proper approach to scale, point me towards it.
Several times I almost had a heart attack, reading books which degraded events of the galactic scale to the level of a tavern gunfight.
——end of the rant——

So back to the Orrery.
Even if “millenia before” is a “hyperbole” of an author who even remotely unaware of the stars’ lifecycle, it still means “NOT INSTANT”.
And the mentioning of balance, calibration and the risk of chain reaction means you can’t use it at will at “full auto”. Only sinlge shots with some sort of recoil.

And in the “Fall of Cadia” Trazyn uses Orrery for a purpose far different from militaristic.

P.S. And the proof that the emerged hive fleets are only a fraction of the Hive might be in the quote from Silent King which I can’t immediately find. He clearly ran into the Hive during his exile trip, and had time and consciosness capable of assessing the threat level (which was high enough to make a come back).



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I am certain that humans are capable of destroying the heavy stars as well. Just teleport the huge chunk of iron to the core of the sun. Huge iron asteroid with built-in warp drive (i am not sure teleportarium used for terminators can be scaled to transfer colossal objects) might even start chain reaction instantly, depending on the weight of the iron.

May be building sufficiently large warp core and exploding it near the star might do the trick as well. Imperials frequently use ships kamikadze-style.
There is a reason ships re-emerge on the far border of the star systems and cruise towards it’s destination on plasma drives.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/12/31 18:11:07


 
   
 
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