Stormtroopers vs Veterans for IG

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**ph34r**

General Hobbs wrote:
I'm currently playing an Elysians list, so all my units can deepstrike. The question I am pondering is this....better to go with Veterans as a shock element ( Deepstrike with 3 plasmaguns) vs Stormtroopers ( DS with 4 plasmaguns). Stormtroopers have better armor and hotshots are not bad up close. Veterans cost a lot less and I can take more stuff in the army.

I'm finding the core of my army, 4-5 regular drop squads followed by the shock element to be very effective. But looking at the lists I've made, with veterans I can add in a bunch of mortar and manticore squads, some assassins for HTH etc.

Thoughts on the differences? I know some say go with stormtroopers because they are also troops and can score....

Trick question. You are Elysians. You have special weapons squads!

Veterans: 70 points of dudes, 39 points of 3 plasma guns.
Special Weapon Squad: 30 points of dudes, 21 points of 3 plasma guns.

For every 3 plasma guns on 10 guys you take of veterans, you can take 6 plasma guns on 12 guys with special weapons squads!

Never take veterans, always take special weapon squads!

**RedCommander**

Hmm, in general Stormtroopers beat Veterans any day of the week.

However, if I were to play elysians, veterans could challenge stormtroopers: they have BS of 3+ and they can deepstrike. The amount of armor is meaningless.

Though that still leaves the issue of deepstriking so many lasguns. Lasguns don't need a grav-chute as a delivery system. Right now, I'd still say I'd go with stormtroopers. That is, with Stormtrooper Command Squads.

**General Hobbs**

I've never seen a tournament require FW models to be used with FW rules. Just that the models be wysiwig.

**General Hobbs**

Now to find a paint scheme...

**AdmiralHalsey**

ph34r wrote:
General Hobbs wrote:
I'm currently playing an Elysians list, so all my units can deepstrike. The question I am pondering is this....better to go with Veterans as a shock element ( Deepstrike with 3 plasmaguns) vs Stormtroopers ( DS with 4 plasmaguns). Stormtroopers have better armor and hotshots are not bad up close. Veterans cost a lot less and I can take more stuff in the army.

I'm finding the core of my army, 4-5 regular drop squads followed by the shock element to be very effective. But looking at the lists I've made, with veterans I can add in a bunch of mortar and manticore squads, some assassins for HTH etc.

Thoughts on the differences? I know some say go with stormtroopers because they are also troops and can score....

Trick question. You are Elysians. You have special weapons squads!

Veterans: 70 points of dudes, 39 points of 3 plasma guns.
Special Weapon Squad: 30 points of dudes, 21 points of 3 plasma guns.

For every 3 plasma guns on 10 guys you take of veterans, you can take 6 plasma guns on 12 guys with special weapons squads!

Never take veterans, always take special weapon squads!

Those plasmaguns are significantly less accurate, however. They also have lower LD, [should that matter] can't take a plasma pistol on the sarge, have even less C/C potential [At least veterans can hold their own vs other guard, small squads of SM, Grots, etc.] And benefit much less from re-rolling 1's.

I'm not saying Veterans are 100% better, just that it's not as clear cut as you make out. Don't forget the veterans can also take a heavy weapon, and have the option to be dropped in rapid fire range, or at long range to reflect different tactical situations.

**ph34r**

Yeah, there are advantages to veterans.

But, in this wargame where one has the option to sharpen one part of the list at the expense of others, I find that more plasma guns gets the job done right.

**Lemondish**

Infantryman wrote:
The helmets kill them for me, honestly.

My next major project will be to build an Elysian force using the Cadian infantry respirator helmets. I had this idea awhile back, and thankfully a lot of different people with more time on their hands did as well, so I see this more and more. The results are great, I think. Have a gander here for example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/7n8rtr/finally_finished_my_first_guard_unit_after_a_10/

**Infantryman**

Lemondish wrote:
Infantryman wrote:
The helmets kill them for me, honestly.

My next major project will be to build an Elysian force using the Cadian infantry respirator helmets. I had this idea awhile back, and thankfully a lot of different people with more time on their hands did as well, so I see this more and more. The results are great, I think. Have a gander here for example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/7n8rtr/finally_finished_my_first_guard_unit_after_a_10/

I did see something like that recently on Facebook - it actually looks pretty nice! I don't know if I will ultimately go that route - not sure how much money I want to sink into a game that doesn't really compel me to play at this point - but it is up for consideration, at least. I ended up using PIP "Kolony" gas mask heads on Cadian bodies for the army I'm working on now.

**General Hobbs**

ph34r wrote:
General Hobbs wrote:
I'm currently playing an Elysians list, so all my units can deepstrike. The question I am pondering is this....better to go with Veterans as a shock element ( Deepstrike with 3 plasmaguns) vs Stormtroopers ( DS with 4 plasmaguns). Stormtroopers have better armor and hotshots are not bad up close. Veterans cost a lot less and I can take more stuff in the army.

I'm finding the core of my army, 4-5 regular drop squads followed by the shock element to be very effective. But looking at the lists I've made, with veterans I can add in a bunch of mortar and manticore squads, some assassins for HTH etc.

Thoughts on the differences? I know some say go with stormtroopers because they are also troops and can score....

Trick question. You are Elysians. You have special weapons squads!

Veterans: 70 points of dudes, 39 points of 3 plasma guns.
Special Weapon Squad: 30 points of dudes, 21 points of 3 plasma guns.

For every 3 plasma guns on 10 guys you take of veterans, you can take 6 plasma guns on 12 guys with special weapons squads!

Never take veterans, always take special weapon squads!

As I stated before, the math hammer says better, the reality is that 3+ to hit is better than 4+, even with more shots.

Why do you have 2 different values for 3 plasma guns? The amount should be the same....

**alextroy**

Because BS 4+ Plasma Guns are 7 points and other Plasma Guns are 13 Points per Chapter Approved.

Thus, he is pointing out that you can purchase two 6-Model/3-Plasma Gun Special Weapons Squads for less points than one 10-Model/3-Plasma Gun Veteran Squads. I'm sure we can both agree that twice as many Plasma Guns (and two extra Lasguns) for less points are a good buy even if the Ballistic Skill is one point less.

**General Hobbs**

alextroy wrote:
Because BS 4+ Plasma Guns are 7 points and other Plasma Guns are 13 Points per Chapter Approved.

Thus, he is pointing out that you can purchase two 6-Model/3-Plasma Gun Special Weapons Squads for less points than one 10-Model/3-Plasma Gun Veteran Squads. I'm sure we can both agree that twice as many Plasma Guns (and two extra Lasguns) for less points are a good buy even if the Ballistic Skill is one point less.

Do the chapter approved rules specifically change Forge World points costs?