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I bet money Lu Bu gets a faction or at least a campaign. For a guy who wasn't even around for the actual 3 Kingdoms he's pretty damn popular. Maybe not an initial one though. He's a prime candidate for DLC.

 -Loki- wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if heroes and lords take part in the battles like they do in Warhammer, though likely not taking out whole regiments themselves and obviously not throwing fireballs and gak around. It's an era that's been heavily romanticised, so they probably want to play that up a bit for the game itself as well.

Most likely they will be mobile morale buffers than can lend a hand disrupting regiments and have some fun fighting animations with other heroes

Yeah, I'm thinking that might be a thing. I'm not upset by the idea at all.

 djones520 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if heroes and lords take part in the battles like they do in Warhammer, though likely not taking out whole regiments themselves and obviously not throwing fireballs and gak around. It's an era that's been heavily romanticised, so they probably want to play that up a bit for the game itself as well.

Most likely they will be mobile morale buffers than can lend a hand disrupting regiments and have some fun fighting animations with other heroes

Yeah, I'm thinking that might be a thing. I'm not upset by the idea at all.

This doesn't sound half bad, only one issue I can see pop up though: AI recruitment is famously lazy and consists of terrible army builds at time. Even Warhammer has them field 5-6 heroes at once sometimes. But if they field 5-6 heroes in this game and they are weaker it would make it even more of a complete roflstomp for the player. CA has not had a great track record fixing AI army builds. So maybe if they implement solo heroes and lords they should have a hard cap of 1-2 per army. That would work without making the army too weak.

 LordofHats wrote:
I bet money Lu Bu gets a faction or at least a campaign. For a guy who wasn't even around for the actual 3 Kingdoms he's pretty damn popular. Maybe not an initial one though. He's a prime candidate for DLC.

Yea he had a campaign in Dynasty Tactics 2 and it was incredibly cool!

Ma Chao campaign one time? He's even more bloodthirsty than Lu Bu!

As someone who has never hand any interest in the Three Kingdoms setting (as yet, I will play the hell out of this game for sure.) I have to ask, do Mongols(or this era's equivalent) ever make an appearance?

One of the reasons I've always wanted to have a Total War in China is to play as the Mongols. Playing as the Huns in Atilla: Total War was challenging and fun, but I'd love a change of scenery/opponents.

Also, what the best resource to read about this era?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I would not be surprised if individuals like Zhang Fei or Guan Yu become hero characters, either solo or with their own squads. Zhuge Liang and other such more known for strategists could be generals that have cooldown-based abilities.

If Lu Bu is not a hero character I'll eat my Shogun 2 disc.

A hero character that you can so easily flip to your side with either a stack of gold or a promise to marry him to a pretty princess

 nels1031 wrote:
As someone who has never hand any interest in the Three Kingdoms setting (as yet, I will play the hell out of this game for sure.) I have to ask, do Mongols(or this era's equivalent) ever make an appearance?

One of the reasons I've always wanted to have a Total War in China is to play as the Mongols. Playing as the Huns in Atilla: Total War was challenging and fun, but I'd love a change of scenery/opponents.

Also, what the best resource to read about this era?

The Xiongnu were what you're looking for at the time. Some scholars link them to the Huns but that is not clearly provable. They are the steppe nomad empire that repeatedly raided succesive Chinese dynasties. Yet as far as I know during the Three Kingdoms period they had been largely defeated and subjugated by the Cao Wei.

Still as a TW game that doesn't have to mean a thing, but it all depends on how and if CA implements them.

As for a book, I'm not sure what book would be best on the specific era.

FAQ up.

Its pretty run of the mill and sparse.

We’re thrilled to be able to reveal Total War: THREE KINGDOMS to the world and we hope you’re all excited by the game as we are. In Autumn 2018, players will be able to conquer feudal China for the first time ever in a Total War game.



We’re setting out to make the most memorable and incredible Total War game yet and we can’t wait to show you more. And don’t worry, as with previous Total War games, we’ll be giving the press, youtubers, and community members access to the game before release so they can share their impressions too. We’ll also let you know the game shows we’re attending in the lead up to release and we’ll make sure reviews hit before launch.



Here’s a quick Q&A to answer any initial questions you may have about the game. Get in touch if you have any other questions and we will answer them in due course.



What is Total War: THREE KINGDOMS?

Total War: THREE KINGDOMS is the next major historical Total War game and is the first game in the award-winning series to take place in China. The Three Kingdoms period is one of the most turbulent times in Chinese history. The Han Dynasty is crumbling; the stage is set for a great new epoch, forged by the fires of conquest – the time to establish your legacy is now. But with many warlords eyeing the throne, each with a large army to back up their claim, it’s clear that the future of China will be shaped by its champions.



When is it releasing?

Total War: THREE KINGDOMS will launch globally in Fall 2018.



Is this the next Total War game you’re going to release?

No, we will be releasing A Total War Saga: THRONES OF BRITANNIA in Spring 2018. Total War: THREE KINGDOMS will then launch in Autumn 2018.



How big is the map?

As an Era-scale Total War game, the next flagship game in our series, it will have a jaw-dropping, epic Campaign Map to fit. We’ll be giving you an incredibly detailed sandbox of Three Kingdoms-period China to explore and conquer. Lots more to be revealed as we get closer to launch.



What will the early adopter bonus or Collector’s Edition be?

We’ll announce any news around these in due course.



Will there be modding support from release?

As with previous Total War games, the aim is to have modding using the Assembly Kit, and Steam Workshop support available very shortly after launch.



Will It be released on Mac and Linux from release?

We’ll announce any news regarding Mac and Linux releases at a later date.



Will it be available as a physical product or is it digital only?

We’ll have more details on this a little closer to release



What are the min/recommended specs?

Again, it’s a little early to confirm, but if you follow us on social media you’ll be the first to know.

I'm calling it now, there will be dlc featuring dragons and souped up heroes a year after release. Should be an awesome game though, I've only ever played Rome 1 and 2 and the Warhammer series so hopefully this one can pull me in as well.

I feel like they will have to work hard to make each faction play differently as that is the biggest strength of the Warhammer games and it really made it very entertaining to replay in different ways.

 Kroem wrote:


I think you are right and they will start him in Xu though, CA never cared about Oda getting crushed every campaign in Shogun 2 after all

Funnily enough, I actually found the Oda start to be pretty easy, even on hard/hard difficulty. Early game you get an advantage on the tactical map due to having better and cheaper ashigaru, and as long as you secure your borders and keep an eye on diplomacy, you can expand and build up your forces to a point where Realm Divide doesn't just steam roller you.
Then again, the AI has terrible build orders, even in Shogun 2 where the AI isn't completely stupid, so of course if a human isn't playing Oda they will get wiped along with Tokugawa

Cool, adding to the wish list.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kroem wrote:


I think you are right and they will start him in Xu though, CA never cared about Oda getting crushed every campaign in Shogun 2 after all

Funnily enough, I actually found the Oda start to be pretty easy, even on hard/hard difficulty. Early game you get an advantage on the tactical map due to having better and cheaper ashigaru, and as long as you secure your borders and keep an eye on diplomacy, you can expand and build up your forces to a point where Realm Divide doesn't just steam roller you.
Then again, the AI has terrible build orders, even in Shogun 2 where the AI isn't completely stupid, so of course if a human isn't playing Oda they will get wiped along with Tokugawa

Yea the only time they are guaranteed to survive is if you as the player take control of them. Although rarely the AI does manage to conquer everyone around them as Oda and become a major player!

Funnily enough I don't think I have ever seen the Tokugawa get killed early game, they are usually safe due to being vassals of the Imagawa and having the bonus to diplomacy.

 nels1031 wrote:
As someone who has never hand any interest in the Three Kingdoms setting (as yet, I will play the hell out of this game for sure.) I have to ask, do Mongols(or this era's equivalent) ever make an appearance?

During the Han period the northern border was a big more south than it is today. At the time the area of Mongolia and much of what is now Northern China was populated by proto-mongol tribes. They were certainly around. The Wuhuan were commonly employed as mercenaries in China. The Han Dynasty didn't struggle with it's northern neighbors as much as previous and later dynasties, in part because the peoples to the North were busy with their own gak at the time. They were of course there but they have never featured that heavily in the period's lore or popular history. Cao Cao did have to quell the Wuhuan (who had allied with members of the Yuan Family) before Chi Bi in 207. He couldn't well march his entire army south and risk anyone getting to uppity but the Battle of Wolf Mountain has never been a very popular aspect of the era.

Also, what the best resource to read about this era?

You can read this for a general overview. One of the issues with trying to learn about the Three Kingdoms period in English is that almost none of the original histories about it have been translated into English! You'd have to hunt down more general histories on China, which do not focus primarily on the Three Kingdoms themselves. You'll likely find a couple different books called Three Kingdoms: A Historical Novel or something like that. These are note "histories" but rather English translations of the historical fiction Romance of the Three Kingdoms by Luo Guanzhong. Bizarrely enough, one of the best English works you can read for actual historical information is fething Dynasty Warriors. Most games in the franchise since DW4 have included an Encyclopedia that contains brief biographies of many of the characters that notes the highly generalized differences between their historical personas and what is presented in the game.

Records of the Three Kingdoms (also called the Sangouzhi) officially by Chen Shou is the official history of the era, compiled in the 3rd Century. It is part of the 24 Histories, and the fourth and final volume on the Han period. It is as far as I know the only surviving contemporary history of the period. Following Zhuge Liang's death, the administrative state of Shu Han decayed rapidly and spectacularly. The written records of the Kingdom pretty much vanished. Chen Shou, originally a citizen of Shu himself, compiled his history of the kingdom from memory and cross referencing some memoirs and outside sources. Cao Wei and Eastern Wu had both compiled their own histories and were used as source material by Chen Shoul. Unfortunately these works are now lost leaving only the Sangouzhi. Annotations to Records of the Three Kingdoms is a 5th century update to the Sangouzhi edited by Pei Songzhi and contains numerous corrections for errors made in Chen Shou's original work though many ahistorical elements of the period had already become prominent in Chinese cultural memory and were included in his annotations. It is more complete that the original, and contains a lot of commentary and personal assessments by Pei Songzhi that are considered to be reliable and enlightening regardless. The Book of the Later Han, compiled by Fan He in the 5th century stops in 189, but it covers a lot of the men and figures who were important leading into the 3 Kingdoms era (contains biographies on Liu Biao, Lu Bu, Dong Zhuo, Yuan Shu, Yuan Shao, and Kong Rong).

As mentioned earlier, the hard part is finding these in English! It's only recently (as in 2016) that a complete translation of Records of the Three Kingdoms was published in the English Language. I don't think Pei Songzhi's annotations have be translated as of yet in any easy to access manner, and I don't think there is an English translation yet of the Book of the Later Han.

You can read Romance of the Three Kingdoms by Luo Guanzhong. There are really only two issues with it, 1) it is highly romanticized and contains lots of fictional events and exaggerated characters. Major figures, particularly those of Shu Han, are glorified and do not accurate reflect their historical personas. 2) it was written in the 14th century, much later than the above mentioned works and while it has been in English for ages it can be a... heavy read. It's long and the quality of the translation can make a big difference in how difficult it is to follow. More literal translations can be very confusing. However the broad strokes of the period presented in the book are accurate and from it you can get a feel for the myth and legend that surrounds the era and makes it so damn popular.

Thanks my dude.

I'll check it out.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Kroem wrote:

It's a tough one because even starting him in Xu would make the historical partition of China very unlikely.

Well he did historically start in Xu. It was the first government position he held that afforded him his own territory (and one he claimed in 196). Prior to hold that position he was just a landless lord under others. The alternative is starting him closer to Yi province but that would be even more historically inaccurate (it didn't happen until 212) and was only an option following the victory at Chi Bi.

I'm thinking of Shu as a playable faction mind you cause especially with the prominence given the sworn brothers in that trailer there's no way they won't be, which is tricky for Shu. Cao Cao and the Suns had territory holdings in 190 that give them definitively simple start positions. Liu Bei did not.

Another option would be to start him out as a horde army, and then give him a series of missions that will result in him getting a territory to call his own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroem wrote:

Funnily enough, I actually found the Oda start to be pretty easy, even on hard/hard difficulty. Early game you get an advantage on the tactical map due to having better and cheaper ashigaru, and as long as you secure your borders and keep an eye on diplomacy, you can expand and build up your forces to a point where Realm Divide doesn't just steam roller you.
Then again, the AI has terrible build orders, even in Shogun 2 where the AI isn't completely stupid, so of course if a human isn't playing Oda they will get wiped along with Tokugawa

Yea the only time they are guaranteed to survive is if you as the player take control of them. Although rarely the AI does manage to conquer everyone around them as Oda and become a major player!

Funnily enough I don't think I have ever seen the Tokugawa get killed early game, they are usually safe due to being vassals of the Imagawa and having the bonus to diplomacy.

It was Nobunaga himself and Hideyoshi that really gave the Oda clan a leg up over everyone else. Without the tactical and strategic thinking of either one of them, the clan would never have risen to prominence. So given that the computer could never be anywhere near as smart as those two men...

One thing that does bug me is that Oda and Tokugawa are pretty much guaranteed to go to permanent war. That's one reason why I like Koei's offering for the era. Nobunaga's Ambition: Sphere of Influence (and possibly earlier versions of the game; but the previous game that I owned in the series was 2) will trigger historical events if certain conditions within the game are met on the appropriate game year. For instance, the game depicts Nobunaga's father kidnapping the future Tokugawa Ieyasu, and then Ieyasu meeting Nobunaga when the latter's father decided to spare Ieyasu's life. That then leads into the later alliance between the two men when both had risen to rule their own clans.

(It's kind of scary to think how much that kidnapping ended up shaping Japan's future...)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Probably one more append...

Bizarrely enough, one of the best English works you can read for actual historical information is fething Dynasty Warriors. Most games in the franchise since DW4 have included an Encyclopedia that contains brief biographies of many of the characters that notes the highly generalized differences between their historical personas and what is presented in the game.

Dynasty Warriors (and Samurai Warriors, which is Dynasty Warriors for the Sengoku Jidai; Warriors Orochi is the inevitable mash-up where both casts are merged into the same game) tries to include just about every officer that is known to have lived during the period represented by the games. The individual in question might be represented in-game as just another officer with a generic skin, but that generic officer has the right name. And there's an entry in the encyclopedia that will give you a little bit of biographical information about the individual.

Fun fact - He Man apparently fought in the Three Kingdoms era, and is one of the generic officers in the Dynasty Warriors games.

Ah yes. He Man. That is a person who existed XD

Maybe they'll have a system of trying to win lords over to your side? A lot of the drama of the period directly stemmed from schemes and plans to win the loyal service of a vassal. They could bring back marriage alliances, which were also a big part of politics and haven't been featured in Total War for awhile it seems.

Dynasty Warriors 3 and 4 were great, but I absolutely hated the 'forts' system that they introduced in Dynasty Warriors 5 and pretty much much everything they have done with the series since then!

I'll say it again, Dynasty Tactics 2 is the best rendition of the RotTK story that I have played. You can watch the cut scenes on Youtube to get a sense of how good that game is!

I think 4 and 5 were the high points of the franchise for me. I liked 4s battles the most, but I liked the story system introduced in 5 (with characters having personalized campaigns corresponding however loosely to their lives).

I didn't hate 6 or 7 but some of the things I didn't like. 6's attempt to reinvent the way characters used weapons was a cool idea with horrible execution (and some of the character redesigns were quite radical). 7 was better but it's a game series where I either feel like playing it or I just don't play it at all. I feel like they really need to just desperately reinvent the game on a mechanical game play level, cause it's just gotten stale. Redoing the weapon system, adding new characters, and maps just doesn't fix that the game play has gotten stale.

While not wanting to rain on anyone's parade too much, lets not get too carried away on features. Most new TW have seen the removal of features, not always replacing them. Lets not forget in Warhammer TW you can't even vassalize or liberate factions anymore, not even for races it makes sense for.

'Become vassal' exists as both a diplomacy demand and as an option for when you take someone's last city, so no, it's not gone.

 Ashiraya wrote:
'Become vassal' exists as both a diplomacy demand and as an option for when you take someone's last city, so no, it's not gone.

It does, but only for some in WH1. Chaos has it for example, but others arbitrarily don't. Also Warhammer 2 didn't have it on release, if its back in I assume its only for those who had it in Warhammer 1. Iirc they only put it back in for VC and Chaos diplomatically.

Edit: I have to check out Mortal Empires once I have access to my PC if all factions allow the subjugate option now and not just WH1. Still think only VC and Chaos have the diplomatic option though. Its been a while so I could be totally wrong like you say
Still sad about the liberate function though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just quickly did a Mortal Empires start as the Empire, made sure to kill off all Marienburg armies outside of their settlements but killing the last settlement only gave me the options to occupy, loot&occupy, sack and raze. No subjugation. Also no ability in the diplo screen to vassalize Empire factions.

One for Kroq too, killed off Teotiqua. Again made sure to leave no armies outside, killing last settlement only gave occupy, loot&occupy, sack and raze. No diplo option.

Bit late to mess around with the others, but so far in line with what I remember from Warhammer 2, almost fully removed vassal system.

I remember vassalizing bastonne as argwylon.

Anyway a bit off topic I guess.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I remember vassalizing bastonne as argwylon.

Anyway a bit off topic I guess.

Sad to say I just tested Argwylon in Mortal Empires against Parravon, same result. No diplo options or subjugate option anymore. Seems you remember the older Warhammer, which is not being taken into the future of the trilogy.

Besides, subjugating is a terrible vassal mechanic even if it still was in game because you basically blendered the entire faction while conquering half a province you can't complete now, with the vassal likely being murdered within the first few turns for lacking an army.

Its kinda on topic though, because it demonstrates how CA has treated mechanics over Rome 2 to Warhammer 2. Rome 2 was sorely lacking and only got some back after literally years. Warhammer just had them removed from the first game to the next game for zero reason.
Its making me expect that TW Three Kingdoms while carrying the veneer of being Chinese TW will carry no real mechanics to properly go with the period. In Warhammer were reduced to using mods to get back old features. I really hope they will put some effort into reworking and putting back mechanics in Three Kingdoms, but I'm not going to bet on it right now.

Keeping an eye on the Thrones of Britannia one will probably yield some info even though its an Atilla based expansion by a different team. If it retains all the features Atilla has that's at least a more comforting idea. I want to be wrong on mechanics, but otherwise mods could solve it in Three Kingdoms, like they solved it in Warhammer so my Lizardmen could go forth and establish a petting zoo empire just like the Old Ones would have wanted.

It may have been TWH1, yes.

Surprising that it didn't carry over, but I guess it'll come with Norsca...

...In May.

you all should check this 3 kingdoms drama series out, its English subbed, Chinese 3 kingdoms GoT like. the first couple episodes a bit slow to introduce the scene, episode 5 will get your blood running, great series to binge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxJCPxmL7k&list=PLCldpz_Pc1FrGQLsaxaV0kVPqmXN_nanN

 Big Mac wrote:
you all should check this 3 kingdoms drama series out, its English subbed, Chinese 3 kingdoms GoT like. the first couple episodes a bit slow to introduce the scene, episode 5 will get your blood running, great series to binge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxJCPxmL7k&list=PLCldpz_Pc1FrGQLsaxaV0kVPqmXN_nanN

If you're prepared to do that you might as well go the whole hog and read the book 'Romance of the Three Kingdoms'!
There was also a John Woo film called Red Cliff that deals with the battle of Chi Bi in this era that was pretty well received a few years ago.

I bet money Lu Bu gets a faction or at least a campaign. For a guy who wasn't even around for the actual 3 Kingdoms he's pretty damn popular. Maybe not an initial one though. He's a prime candidate for DLC./quote]
Isn't that him in the trailer fighting Guan Yu and Zhang Fei? The only other candidates I think it could be are Zhang Liao or Xu Huang. Although I am basing that on the Koei interpretation of the characters :-p

 Kroem wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
you all should check this 3 kingdoms drama series out, its English subbed, Chinese 3 kingdoms GoT like. the first couple episodes a bit slow to introduce the scene, episode 5 will get your blood running, great series to binge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxJCPxmL7k&list=PLCldpz_Pc1FrGQLsaxaV0kVPqmXN_nanN

If you're prepared to do that you might as well go the whole hog and read the book 'Romance of the Three Kingdoms'!
There was also a John Woo film called Red Cliff that deals with the battle of Chi Bi in this era that was pretty well received a few years ago.

I bet money Lu Bu gets a faction or at least a campaign. For a guy who wasn't even around for the actual 3 Kingdoms he's pretty damn popular. Maybe not an initial one though. He's a prime candidate for DLC./quote]
Isn't that him in the trailer fighting Guan Yu and Zhang Fei? The only other candidates I think it could be are Zhang Liao or Xu Huang. Although I am basing that on the Koei interpretation of the characters :-p

haven't read the book, ssaw that red cliff movie, it was a bit hollywoodnized imo; i saw this series when first came out when i was visiting china, but didnt understand half of it, as they spoke ancient high chinese where i understood plain chinese, so i'm watching it again to understand it all, the translation seems quite accurate me, thus i recommend it.

Nah it's def Lu Bu in the trailer. That's clearly supposed to represent the battle of Hulao Gate.

That was certainly my first guess.


I hope that CA keep the Koei colour scheme of red for Wu, blue for Wei and green for Shu Han the same and also that the Nanman tribes are in the game!

I wonder how they will deal with characters like Zhang He and Pang De who historically changed sides. Dynasty Tactics 2 had a cool system where officers could be recruited when a faction was eliminated if you had one of their friends on your roster.

 Kroem wrote:
That was certainly my first guess.


I hope that CA keep the Koei colour scheme of red for Wu, blue for Wei and green for Shu Han the same and also that the Nanman tribes are in the game!

Or as I recently saw noted elsewhere, Nintendo Switch for Wu, Sony PS4 for Wei, and Microsoft X-Box 1 for Shu Han.

The reason why I'm reviving this old thread is because of this blog post on the Total War website -

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-three-kingdoms-warlord-legends-sun-jian


The takeaways -

There are 11 warlords you can pick from at the start of the game.

Historically, Sun Jian found the Imperial Seal while picking through the ruins of the former capitol of Luoyang, fought his way through an ambush by Liu Biao while heading back to his home in the south, and then finally died not long after in a volley of arrows. His son Sun Ce succeeded him, traded the seal to Yuan Shu in exchange for troops, and starting conquering the areas that would become the core of Wu. But he died young, and was succeeded by his brother Sun Quan, who eventually proclaimed himself Emperor of Wu.
Sun Jian starts the game north of the Yangtze River in Jiangling. Luoyang has already been burned by Dong Zhuo, and Sun Jian has already discovered the Imperial Seal. His goal is to get home to Changsha, where he can start to build up his power base. The blog notes that on his way home, he is approached by Liu Biao, who makes Sun Jian an offer - hand over the Imperial Seal, or else. If Sun Jian gives up the seal, then Liu Biao becomes friendly, and essentially secures Sun Jian's northern border. If Sun Jian refuses, then Liu Biao becomes an enemy, but it improves relations with Yuan Shu (I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing this is because of the later historical deal that saw the Sun family hand the seal over to Yuan Shu). According to the blog, every playable warlord will have a decision (referred to as a 'dilemma' along these lines early on, and the choice that the player makes can cause some rather large differences in the way that a given campaign plays out.

The blog post is a bit vague on the subject, but it's possible that there will be more possible dilemmas later in the game. If so, I'm guessing that they'll be triggered in a fashion somewhat similar to how Chapters work in the current games - i.e. meet a set of listed conditions, and the next dilemma is triggered.

The post also contains information on what specific traits and abilities make Sun Jian different from other warlords.


Finally, the post states that Sun Jian starts just after the destruction of Luoyang. But the first DLC pack (which is available for free with a pre-order, or purchase of the game within one week of release) is called "Yellow Turban Warlords". Make of that what you will...