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Medicinal Carrots wrote:
I lump them in conditional with the other bikes. In a Maelstrom or other turn by turn objective games, they can be good to run between objectives and still throw out a good number of shots. Otherwise decent, but not great.

As a non-Ultramarine player, I think Scout bikes are the best source of anti-infantry dakka you can get in the list. 22 shots of S4 at rapid fire range and good chance to get into rapid fire range with 16 inch move for 77 points is a bargain. If you have Bobby G, sure you just take Assault Razorbacks and Fire Raptors. But for non-Bobby G lists, Assault Backs that are moving and -1 to hit and not getting the re-rolls to wound are not that great.

For me, your unit selection is based around primarily Bobby G boosted units. Which in a way, you are saying that only Bobby G is really competitive. For example, Fire Raptors are pretty useless without Bobby G and Ultramarines. If that's the case that's fine. Just want to see if this thread is only basically around Ultramarine unit choices or is a discussion around marine units generally outside of just one faction.

So I'd say Scout Bikes are the best generalist dakka unit that marines can put out in a vacuum. Now you're statement that this isn't good enough and is still decent compared with all the rest that is out there can still apply.

Inceptors deliver pretty dakka too.

Gulliman acts merely as a multiplier. If it's good with Guilliman, it's good without him or with generic HQs as well, he just boosts the damage output. Fire Raptors are great on their own. He just makes them more killy when they sit still. When moving, they still bring lots of hurt, and eat a lot of enemy fire.

For the record, I play Salamanders, not Ultramarines. My selections are as non-chapter specific as I could make them. I stand by my top selections being good regardless of what chapter tactics you use.

As for Scout bikers, I said they were conditional, not bad. In missions where you need mobility, they're good, on par with some of the best units. Otherwise they're still OK. Their main downside is they have to get into rapid fire range to be effective. Over 12" they only have 8 shots. If you're in rapid fire range, then so is the enemy. They're also in easier charge range. And they aren't super durable. Not a unit you build a list around, but one you don't feel bad about tossing in when you're on your last 100 points of listbuilding.

To compare, a Sicaran Punisher is close to the efficiency vs GEQ, better vs MEQ, more durable, has a longer threat range, and doesn't have to put itself dangerously close.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
Gulliman acts merely as a multiplier. If it's good with Guilliman, it's good without him or with generic HQs as well, he just boosts the damage output. Fire Raptors are great on their own. He just makes them more killy when they sit still. When moving, they still bring lots of hurt, and eat a lot of enemy fire.

For the record, I play Salamanders, not Ultramarines. My selections are as non-chapter specific as I could make them. I stand by my top selections being good regardless of what chapter tactics you use.

As for Scout bikers, I said they were conditional, not bad. In missions where you need mobility, they're good, on par with some of the best units. Otherwise they're still OK. Their main downside is they have to get into rapid fire range to be effective. Over 12" they only have 8 shots. If you're in rapid fire range, then so is the enemy. They're also in easier charge range. And they aren't super durable. Not a unit you build a list around, but one you don't feel bad about tossing in when you're on your last 100 points of listbuilding.

To compare, a Sicaran Punisher is close to the efficiency vs GEQ, better vs MEQ, more durable, has a longer threat range, and doesn't have to put itself dangerously close.

Sicaran Punisher with gear is like between 170-190 (trying not to say exact number) for like 24 shots. That's like between 7 and 8 pts a shot. Scout Bikes are like between 3 and 4 points per shot if you can get in rapid fire range. I know obviously that S4 and S5 shots are different and that rapid fire isn't guaranteed. But you can take almost 3 units of scout bikers for the cost of the Sicaran. If there's cover, then the Scout Bikes have a good chance of scooting and shooting. Keep in mind that the Sicaran moving and shooting penalty of -1 is rough and Scout Bikers don't have that issue. So in a vacuum, if you can guarantee 36 inches and you're enemy coming toward you, I can see the argument for Sicaran. But in a more mobile game, Scout Bikers are every bit as efficient offensively as the Sicaran if not more. I guess is the preference to take big units like Fire Raptors or Sicaran for this role or several overlapping units like Scout Bikers. But thanks for the Sicaran, I hadn't really considered it before and have to admit it's pretty powerful.

They don't have a scout movement.

hoya4life3381 wrote:

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
Gulliman acts merely as a multiplier. If it's good with Guilliman, it's good without him or with generic HQs as well, he just boosts the damage output. Fire Raptors are great on their own. He just makes them more killy when they sit still. When moving, they still bring lots of hurt, and eat a lot of enemy fire.

For the record, I play Salamanders, not Ultramarines. My selections are as non-chapter specific as I could make them. I stand by my top selections being good regardless of what chapter tactics you use.

As for Scout bikers, I said they were conditional, not bad. In missions where you need mobility, they're good, on par with some of the best units. Otherwise they're still OK. Their main downside is they have to get into rapid fire range to be effective. Over 12" they only have 8 shots. If you're in rapid fire range, then so is the enemy. They're also in easier charge range. And they aren't super durable. Not a unit you build a list around, but one you don't feel bad about tossing in when you're on your last 100 points of listbuilding.

To compare, a Sicaran Punisher is close to the efficiency vs GEQ, better vs MEQ, more durable, has a longer threat range, and doesn't have to put itself dangerously close.

Sicaran Punisher with gear is like between 170-190 (trying not to say exact number) for like 24 shots. That's like between 7 and 8 pts a shot. Scout Bikes are like between 3 and 4 points per shot if you can get in rapid fire range. I know obviously that S4 and S5 shots are different and that rapid fire isn't guaranteed. But you can take almost 3 units of scout bikers for the cost of the Sicaran. If there's cover, then the Scout Bikes have a good chance of scooting and shooting. Keep in mind that the Sicaran moving and shooting penalty of -1 is rough and Scout Bikers don't have that issue. So in a vacuum, if you can guarantee 36 inches and you're enemy coming toward you, I can see the argument for Sicaran. But in a more mobile game, Scout Bikers are every bit as efficient offensively as the Sicaran if not more. I guess is the preference to take big units like Fire Raptors or Sicaran for this role or several overlapping units like Scout Bikers. But thanks for the Sicaran, I hadn't really considered it before and have to admit it's pretty powerful.

The Punisher throws out 27 shots. AP-1 and re-roling 1s with the main cannon also helps. Against guardsmen, a stationary Punisher is about 17 points per wound inflicted, Scout Bikers are about 12. Against marines, it's about 28 points per wound for Punisher vs 32 for the Scout Bikers. Threat range for a stationary Punisher is 36" vs 28" for the Scout Bikes' move + rapid fire. The Scout Bikes have 4 more wounds at that price point, but a worse T and Sv, as well as losing shots and overall effectiveness every 2 wounds taken vs. needing to lose 7 before the Punisher drops in effectiveness (but not total shots). Bikes are also not Infantry, so require not just being in cover, but also being 50% obscured for their saves to benefit same as the Punisher, though they are smaller so that's easier for them. And again, in missions where mobility is necessary, the Scout Bikes compete with some of the top units, since they help you win the mission. If you don't need to worry about claiming objectives until after you have a chance to kill as much as possible, sitting still is less of a problem.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
Gulliman acts merely as a multiplier. If it's good with Guilliman, it's good without him or with generic HQs as well, he just boosts the damage output. Fire Raptors are great on their own. He just makes them more killy when they sit still. When moving, they still bring lots of hurt, and eat a lot of enemy fire.

For the record, I play Salamanders, not Ultramarines. My selections are as non-chapter specific as I could make them. I stand by my top selections being good regardless of what chapter tactics you use.

As for Scout bikers, I said they were conditional, not bad. In missions where you need mobility, they're good, on par with some of the best units. Otherwise they're still OK. Their main downside is they have to get into rapid fire range to be effective. Over 12" they only have 8 shots. If you're in rapid fire range, then so is the enemy. They're also in easier charge range. And they aren't super durable. Not a unit you build a list around, but one you don't feel bad about tossing in when you're on your last 100 points of listbuilding.

To compare, a Sicaran Punisher is close to the efficiency vs GEQ, better vs MEQ, more durable, has a longer threat range, and doesn't have to put itself dangerously close.

Sicaran Punisher with gear is like between 170-190 (trying not to say exact number) for like 24 shots. That's like between 7 and 8 pts a shot. Scout Bikes are like between 3 and 4 points per shot if you can get in rapid fire range. I know obviously that S4 and S5 shots are different and that rapid fire isn't guaranteed. But you can take almost 3 units of scout bikers for the cost of the Sicaran. If there's cover, then the Scout Bikes have a good chance of scooting and shooting. Keep in mind that the Sicaran moving and shooting penalty of -1 is rough and Scout Bikers don't have that issue. So in a vacuum, if you can guarantee 36 inches and you're enemy coming toward you, I can see the argument for Sicaran. But in a more mobile game, Scout Bikers are every bit as efficient offensively as the Sicaran if not more. I guess is the preference to take big units like Fire Raptors or Sicaran for this role or several overlapping units like Scout Bikers. But thanks for the Sicaran, I hadn't really considered it before and have to admit it's pretty powerful.

The Punisher throws out 27 shots. AP-1 and re-roling 1s with the main cannon also helps. Against guardsmen, a stationary Punisher is about 17 points per wound inflicted, Scout Bikers are about 12. Against marines, it's about 28 points per wound for Punisher vs 32 for the Scout Bikers. Threat range for a stationary Punisher is 36" vs 28" for the Scout Bikes' move + rapid fire. The Scout Bikes have 4 more wounds at that price point, but a worse T and Sv, as well as losing shots and overall effectiveness every 2 wounds taken vs. needing to lose 7 before the Punisher drops in effectiveness (but not total shots). Bikes are also not Infantry, so require not just being in cover, but also being 50% obscured for their saves to benefit same as the Punisher, though they are smaller so that's easier for them. And again, in missions where mobility is necessary, the Scout Bikes compete with some of the top units, since they help you win the mission. If you don't need to worry about claiming objectives until after you have a chance to kill as much as possible, sitting still is less of a problem.

I I think you're calculation on Scout biker against guard isn't quite accurate. 22 shots for 3 models costing between 75-80 pts in rapid fire range is much better. They have 12 bike bolter shots, 6 shotgun shots, and 4 storm bolter shots on the sergeant for 22 total. 2/3 of these shots hit and then 2/3 of these wound against GEQ. This is almost 10 wounds caused for 75-80 pts. Are you factoring in the right number of shots? Are you factoring in shotgun which is easy to miss?

Strength 4 vs. Strength 5 shots against Guardsman are the same to wound and in your calculation you haven't factored in saves (which is fine). So doing simple math, 22 shots / between 75-80 pts is much better than 27 shots / between 170-185 points. Against GEQ, the wound rate is the same of 3+ to wound. Even re-rolling to hits of missed 1's doesn't bridge the gap that much. Again this is just offensive firepower, you're points on suriviveabilty of Sicaran as one big model vs. 6-9 smaller model still applies. Of course the Heavy Bolter shots are much better against marines and a different calculation has to be made there.

Scour bikes are good. I don't own any, but they are strong.

hoya4life3381 wrote:
I think you're calculation on Scout biker against guard isn't quite accurate. 22 shots for 3 models costing between 75-80 pts in rapid fire range is much better. They have 12 bike bolter shots, 6 shotgun shots, and 4 storm bolter shots on the sergeant for 22 total. 2/3 of these shots hit and then 2/3 of these wound against GEQ. This is almost 10 wounds caused for 75-80 pts. Are you factoring in the right number of shots? Are you factoring in shotgun which is easy to miss?

Strength 4 vs. Strength 5 shots against Guardsman are the same to wound and in your calculation you haven't factored in saves (which is fine). So doing simple math, 22 shots / between 75-80 pts is much better than 27 shots / between 170-185 points. Against GEQ, the wound rate is the same of 3+ to wound. Even re-rolling to hits of missed 1's doesn't bridge the gap that much. Again this is just offensive firepower, you're points on suriviveabilty of Sicaran as one big model vs. 6-9 smaller model still applies. Of course the Heavy Bolter shots are much better against marines and a different calculation has to be made there.

I did factor in everything. I listed points per unsaved wound.

Scouts: 22 shots, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 2/3 unsaved = 6.52 unsaved wounds. Approx 12 points per unsaved wound.
Punisher: 18 shots hit on (2/3 + 1/6 × 2/3) + 9 shots hit on 2/3, 2/3 wound, 5/6 unsaved = 11.11 unsaved wounds. Approx 17 points per unsaved wound.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:
I think you're calculation on Scout biker against guard isn't quite accurate. 22 shots for 3 models costing between 75-80 pts in rapid fire range is much better. They have 12 bike bolter shots, 6 shotgun shots, and 4 storm bolter shots on the sergeant for 22 total. 2/3 of these shots hit and then 2/3 of these wound against GEQ. This is almost 10 wounds caused for 75-80 pts. Are you factoring in the right number of shots? Are you factoring in shotgun which is easy to miss?

Strength 4 vs. Strength 5 shots against Guardsman are the same to wound and in your calculation you haven't factored in saves (which is fine). So doing simple math, 22 shots / between 75-80 pts is much better than 27 shots / between 170-185 points. Against GEQ, the wound rate is the same of 3+ to wound. Even re-rolling to hits of missed 1's doesn't bridge the gap that much. Again this is just offensive firepower, you're points on suriviveabilty of Sicaran as one big model vs. 6-9 smaller model still applies. Of course the Heavy Bolter shots are much better against marines and a different calculation has to be made there.

I did factor in everything. I listed points per unsaved wound.

Scouts: 22 shots, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 2/3 unsaved = 6.52 unsaved wounds. Approx 12 points per unsaved wound.
Punisher: 18 shots hit on (2/3 + 1/6 × 2/3) + 9 shots hit on 2/3, 2/3 wound, 5/6 unsaved = 11.11 unsaved wounds. Approx 17 points per unsaved wound.

You had quoted "Wounds" in your previous post.. You had not mentioned "Unsaved Wounds" and factored in armor save. Just want to be sure we are on the same point.

So Scouts are significantly better at GEQ killing on a per point basis. 12 pts per unsaved wound is almost 50% percent better than 17 points per unsaved wound. That is a pretty sizable margin! Again, we are comparing 28 inch Scout Bike range to 36 inch stand still Sicaran range. I am willing to call the less range of Scout Bikes vs. the Sicaran needing to stay still a draw basically in effective range. Each has its own situational advantages.

Now obviously, we are just looking at offensive firepower and not factoring in suriviveability at all. This is where of course the Sicaran is paying its point premium for.

Therefore, my argument is that Scout Bikers are phenomenal from an offensive stand point and should be considered top tier competitive if we only looked at offensive output. Now the argument against them is points denial where the Sicaran has a better chance of denying points then the Scout Bikers who are squishy. So I am willing to concede that in competitive meta where points denial can be as critical as points killing, that Scout Bikers do get lowered a notch. For me, I'd still put them in the Decent category given how good they are offensively with this points detail drawback. For you, the lack of points denial may completely outweigh their phenomenal offense and just be contingent.

For me, the durability, range, hunter killer, versatility and maintaining efficiency against tougher opponents put the Punisher in the top category. Scout bikers are always at least decent, and jump up to good when you need to keep mobile to win the mission.

Durability also isn't just denying points, it's also maintaining offensive capability longer. 6 wounds doesn't negatively affect the Punisher at all, and it can still do something until it loses its last wound. A Scout Biker squad is not only easier to damage, but it drastically loses firepower every 2 wounds.