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I thought long 20+ episode seasons was more to do with an eye on syndication rather than any loftier ambition, Streaming has kind of poked that model in the eye, 13 or so episodes done well is more than enough to tell a story

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I thought long 20+ episode seasons was more to do with an eye on syndication rather than any loftier ambition, Streaming has kind of poked that model in the eye, 13 or so episodes done well is more than enough to tell a story

Regardless of the intent, it provided opportunities the 10-13 model doesn't. And again, it's enough to tell some kinds of story, it works well for some kinds of show - I'm willing to bet that quite a few of most people's favourite episodes of television would end up as discarded "filler" if those shows were made today with the 10-13 model, because they were smaller character pieces, or told a contained story that didn't directly relate to the overarching tale. The best analogy would be the old film vs TV consideration - a lot of stories that do really well in a 90-120 minute movie would feel spartan and padded if you tried to stretch them out over the run of a TV show - of either format - and by the same token plenty of stories from TV would feel rushed and incomplete if you tried to prune them down to the runtime of a movie. Some narratives would feel very nearly as cut-down by the reduction to the 10-13 model, or the overall serialised tale they aim to tell is one that benefits from giving the audience a little break every few episodes so they can engage with the characters without the overarching plot hanging over them like the sword of Damocles.

The point being, they all have their place and which is used should depend on what story they're trying to tell, not industry trends or snobby artistes who used to look down on TV.

possibly its just I don't recall any recent 'long' shows I've really liked eg end end of Gotham S3 really was painfully longwinded, whereas I've liked shorter run stuff like Preacher or American Gods, but that could equally down to the merits or otherwise orfa show, although that whole mid-season stupid is an annoying trend (Vikings being particularly annoying with S4's)

Oh on the midseason break I 100% agree, it's often infuriating - advocates claim it shortens the time you have to wait to find out the result of the end-of-season cliffhanger, but that's a nonsense these days since they've just turned the midseason finale into another huge cliffhanger episode.

I think the only way the 23 episode format can work well is if you take the approach that the last series of SHIELD and Gotham took. Rather than tell one long story with a predictably reveal a few episodes from the end (I found it hilarious that across Flash, Arrow and SG there would basically be a Villain Reveal Weak as they all reached that exact point in their stories at the same time), break it down into 7-8 week chunks and run a seperate, though linked, storyline in each. They can still come together in the end, and obviously more personal character arcs run across the whole series, but a story is told, concluded and on to the next without being mercilessly dragged out or padded with filler.*

If they're not doing that, then 8-15 episodes is definitely the sweet spot, and to be honest these days I'd much rather watch a couple of episodes a night and get through a series in a month than (including a mid-series break) follow it for 6+ months, before having 3 months off then another series. It's why I gave up on the CW stuff. Even though I was enjoying series 5 of Arrow a lot (less so Flash and SG), it got to the point where it just couldn't hold my interest while Netflix was handing out stuff like Stranger Things, Daredevil, the UK airing of Gotham ect. I missed a few weeks, realised I didn't actually care enough to go and catch up, and that was it.

*I do love episode TV, Doctor Who and TNG being probably the prime examples, though also stuff like Primeval and Merlin. But I think you either go the story arc format or the Monster of the Week with the occasionally 2-parter or minor plot arc, inserting the odd one-off into an otherwise serial storyline doesn't often work too well.

Well aye, as I said both formats have their place, but that's not the usual argument made by 10-13 advocates, who consistently assert that it's a flatly superior format that should replace "old" TV.

Babylon 5.

Babylon 5 is a good example of why the 10-13 model isn't always perfect.

B5 of course had arcing plots over five years. And said plot was slowly spun out across each season.

But what of the below-decks episode? Where just follow anonymous crew members? Or that mental episode with the bloke that thinks he's King Arthur?

They don't add to the overall plot - but don't half build the setting.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Babylon 5.

Babylon 5 is a good example of why the 10-13 model isn't always perfect.

B5 of course had arcing plots over five years. And said plot was slowly spun out across each season.

But what of the below-decks episode? Where just follow anonymous crew members? Or that mental episode with the bloke that thinks he's King Arthur?

They don't add to the overall plot - but don't half build the setting.

Love Babylon 5 - did not enjoy those two episodes.

The arc was mostly good however.

I found they helped to craft the wider world B5 inhabited - doubly important when a decent chunk of what's going on is political drama!

thing with B5 was that JMS had a beginning, middle and end sketched out, so even filler nudged towards an end, it part of the reason S5 and the spin-offs felt like just another fairly decent spaceshow