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 ClockworkZion wrote:
If they had updated Horrors in the CSM book they would have done this same thing for the Index. Waiting for the Daemons book to drop before doing it only pushes the same exact update back to when the codex came out.

If I can point to something GW did "wrong" was bowing to the ridiculousness of the community and letting the indexes live beyond codexes. Indexes will become irrelevant through tournament action regardless.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
If they had updated Horrors in the CSM book they would have done this same thing for the Index. Waiting for the Daemons book to drop before doing it only pushes the same exact update back to when the codex came out.

If I can point to something GW did "wrong" was bowing to the ridiculousness of the community and letting the indexes live beyond codexes. Indexes will become irrelevant through tournament action regardless.

Not all the armies in the indexes have been given codexes, so for now they're still needed. The only reason beyond that to keep Indexes around is to let legacy build options back into the armies: stuff you have that doesn't have an option anymore but you want to field, or something that was legal so you made a model for and want to field. But those sort of things should really go to free PDF and drop the indexes in the end.

If you subtract the obvious salt from the original post, he actually makes a good point, one that I've been discussing locally:

How are we supposed to keep track of all of the different rules?

There are so many sources now:
Codex
Index
Designers Commentary
Multiple FAQ - not all on GW website!
FW units rulesheets
FW FAQ

Something we can all agree:

GW should keep the game as balanced as possible.

Something I would imagine we also all agree:

GW needs to provide a way for us to get comprehensive rulesets that feature the most recent updates.

Printed rulebooks and supplements are NOT the way to do this. I don't know anyone who purchased chapter approved. I played in a tournament where players were using the store copy of chapter approved because literally no one owns it. (Maybe because they gave primaris some love, and primaris still suck, and pretty much anyone who has multiple armies quit marines a while ago, who knows).

I've said this before, and i'll say it again.

GW needs to provide a yearly subscription to rules content. This would also allow them to make a list building application available for computers/phones, and would MASSIVELY help the whole "illegal list" problem that is rampant at tournaments. Additionally, it would allow me to actually read everyone's stratagems, so there's not this continual string of "gotchas!" after a book drops.

If everyone has the app, you don't need to ask to see your opponents rules, you just type in the rule name, and click search. Oh what's that stratagem called? Iron within, iron without? Got it; searching now... What's that psychic power called? Vortex of doom? Let me look it up one sec. Having total access to your opponents list and rules would make this game infinitely more playable.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
If they had updated Horrors in the CSM book they would have done this same thing for the Index. Waiting for the Daemons book to drop before doing it only pushes the same exact update back to when the codex came out.

If I can point to something GW did "wrong" was bowing to the ridiculousness of the community and letting the indexes live beyond codexes. Indexes will become irrelevant through tournament action regardless.

Not all the armies in the indexes have been given codexes, so for now they're still needed. The only reason beyond that to keep Indexes around is to let legacy build options back into the armies: stuff you have that doesn't have an option anymore but you want to field, or something that was legal so you made a model for and want to field. But those sort of things should really go to free PDF and drop the indexes in the end.

In total agreement.

Be honest BCB. When GW publish a FAQ you get a boner.

Party in the YMDC forum. 8pm sharp. BYOB.

 Marmatag wrote:

If everyone has the app, you don't need to ask to see your opponents rules, you just type in the rule name, and click search. Oh what's that stratagem called? Iron within, iron without? Got it; searching now... What's that psychic power called? Vortex of doom? Let me look it up one sec. Having total access to your opponents list and rules would make this game infinitely more playable.

Yeah really wish they would do a Azyr app so i can make lists and stuff while im in the pooper.

The problem with apps, sadly, is that not everyone likes dealing with them. And honestly I find it easier to deal with a physical book than an app (and I'm saying this as a Sisters player, I was basically forced to use a digital codex for a while there unless I took the time to print things) mostly because it was easier to reference without draining my battery or needing to scroll back and forth nearly as much.

The updates all over the place are definitely confusing, but I appreciate they're happening. And if they're automatically included in the digital copies, that's even better. But the desire for physical books by the customer base isn't going away anytime soon.

It is ironic that people will simultaneously complain about broken rules and the resulting fixes. That GW releases broken rules and then fixes them is an ENORMOUS improvement on their traditional approach of releasing broken rules and then completely ignoring them for a decade or so.

And yes, it would be preferable if GW would release unit rules and points freely in downloadable pdfs. Then we could avoid the mess of glossy printed codexes with errata scribbled all over with a pencil. But that is not going to happen, and we all know why.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Wait, you're complaining that GW has figured out that they don't always write things perfectly the first time and are willing to go back and correct glaring errors?

No, I am complaining they didn't bother to write it correctly the first time. In no other game would TWENTY SIX errata documents be needed to play.

Have you ever written anything and made a mistake?

It's not that "they didn't bother", it's that they made a mistake the first time. At least they've been bothered to fix it. It's roughly an errata per codex, not too bad all things considered.

This sounds to me like there's a lot of salt around horrors because of all those players that are disappointed they can no longer exploit their broken rules.

The best part is that the new datasheet they released is wrong also.

So now, if you use the new datasheet, Horrors are the only CSM Daemon unit in the game with the Daemon faction keyword.

Proofreading, it's not just for company-wide emails.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
The best part is that the new datasheet they released is wrong also.

So now, if you use the new datasheet, Horrors are the only CSM Daemon unit in the game with the Daemon faction keyword.

Proofreading, it's not just for company-wide emails.

Considering I've seen government regulations with errors, I'm not finding this a reason to get too upset over. I'd be more surprised if it didn't get fixed pretty quickly.

On a side note, did everyone notice from the Thousand Sons preview that they are finally marking whether or not a strategem costs reinforcement points in the text of the strategem? So much drama to be avoided now.

I just noticed they screwed up the Horror errata and gave them the Daemon faction keyword.

The other 3 gods units in CSM codex don't have them.

GW are so useless they can't even do their errata correctly.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The problem with apps, sadly, is that not everyone likes dealing with them. And honestly I find it easier to deal with a physical book than an app (and I'm saying this as a Sisters player, I was basically forced to use a digital codex for a while there unless I took the time to print things) mostly because it was easier to reference without draining my battery or needing to scroll back and forth nearly as much.

The updates all over the place are definitely confusing, but I appreciate they're happening. And if they're automatically included in the digital copies, that's even better. But the desire for physical books by the customer base isn't going away anytime soon.

A lot of this has to do with the design of the app itself. If you're just porting datasheets into the app PDF style its not accomplishing much. You need to make sure you have a playable UI. I wholeheartedly support the digital move. Books are a horrid relic at this point and while cards are better, managing them gets to be a mess rather quickly. I pretty much only play digital now, but WarRoom 2 and MayaNet are really the only ones that are a great experience in play. The original was clunky and Malifaux's app has severe issues with the way it presents rules to the player. Infinity's online builder is pretty good, but not as organized as MayaNet.

I'm not sure if GW could get a playable app going any time soon, but I could see them doing well with an online army builder that printed a rules PDF. Regardless, they need a digital solution badly. The Index system was a pretty big improvement, but the return of codexes have continually shown us why physical book releases are a clunky way to provide updates.

Considering their epubs are literally unusable, to the point where I had to learn how to convert xhtml into pdf to be able to read the bloody things I BLOODY WELL BOUGHT, I don't think the digital department at GW is well staffed either.

Dead tree carcasses? how Macabre.

 Desubot wrote:
Dead tree carcasses? how Macabre.

We could go back to using Animal skin instead.

So, video games (especially online competitive ones) go through patches all the time, taking in new data and adjusting the game systems. Also, playtesting is never as good as data feedback from actual game play. You can playtest a video game all you want, but the moment it hits player console/PCs, issues are going to be found.

This is effectively what GW is doing. And this is what we want. The fact they are changing the rules and adjusting to the meta is a good sign. Why are you complaining?

Darsath wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Dead tree carcasses? how Macabre.

We could go back to using Animal skin instead.

Or reeds pounded into fibers.

Or, maybe, Horrors had to go through a round of playtesting because they were going to be included in the CSM codex (one of the first released), but since they are ALSO included in the Daemon codex, they got looked at again, given that they were broken (internally, and externally, for different reasons). And since the datasheet exists in the CSM codex, it has to be brought up to date with the current (Daemons) datasheet.

So...yeah: Playtesting.

Wait people still have trouble with the ePubs?

I use Google Play Books on my phone and Readium E-Reader for PC and have had no trouble at all.

*shrug*

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait people still have trouble with the ePubs?

I use Google Play Books on my phone and Readium E-Reader for PC and have had no trouble at all.

*shrug*

Redium doesn't do the fonts correctly.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait people still have trouble with the ePubs?

I use Google Play Books on my phone and Readium E-Reader for PC and have had no trouble at all.

*shrug*

Redium doesn't do the fonts correctly.

Oh, I never really noticed the fonts; I just made sure I could read and understand what was written and moved along, lol.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Dead tree carcasses? how Macabre.

We could go back to using Animal skin instead.

Or reeds pounded into fibers.

Slats of wood bound together in sheets with threads.

I'm of two minds about this. On one hand it's nice to see them trying to keep things balanced, on the other I can't be hooped with having to keep track of 2 dozen FAQs. I'm not going to be jumping into any tournaments or anything any time soon though, so it doesn't affect me too badly at the moment. I would prefer points increasing or decreasing as the primary way to balance things though. Start changing too much and it is basically replacing entire datasheets for units, which us a bit much.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Dead tree carcasses? how Macabre.

We could go back to using Animal skin instead.

Or reeds pounded into fibers.

Slats of wood bound together in sheets with threads.

Whats this written lenguage crap? If you want your rules you should pay 30 bucks to the GW store manager so he tells you all the rules of your codex. And you better memorize all of it instantly.

 Galas wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Dead tree carcasses? how Macabre.

We could go back to using Animal skin instead.

Or reeds pounded into fibers.

Slats of wood bound together in sheets with threads.

Whats this written lenguage crap? If you want your rules you should pay 30 bucks to the GW store manager so he tells you all the rules of your codex. And you better memorize all of it instantly.

You mean you don't study the crude wall paintings to learn an army because your GW hasn't mastered language yet?

Wall paintings are for 60.000 b.c kids. When we started this hobby there was no such thing as lenguage. Just grunts and gutural noises.

 Galas wrote:
Wall paintings are for 60.000 b.c kids. When we started this hobby there was no such thing as lenguage. Just grunts and gutural noises.

When I started this hobby, we had to tell the background radiation to cool it so that existence itself could form.

Psh. kids these days

When I started this hobby we had to create the whole of reality so we'd have somewhere to play.