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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







...I understand that plasma is a crossover weapon. I'm arguing that a crossover weapon that starts outperforming specialist weapons (in this case the meltagun) is a problem that needs to be fixed.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
...I understand that plasma is a crossover weapon. I'm arguing that a crossover weapon that starts outperforming specialist weapons (in this case the meltagun) is a problem that needs to be fixed.


That is a fair argument. The melta gun is pretty senseless in this edition but I'd argue that this is due more to the new deep strike rules 9" bubble more than anything else. Of course, I'm not sure they factored the two dimensions together of 6" range and almost never ever being to deep strike into 6 inch range to make it worth it. The actual weapon profile of S8 AP-4, especially the -4, would be quite useful and the 1/2 range bonus would make it better than plasma. There still would be a case for plasma over melta as a generalist weapon but Melta would at least be considered. Actually, on second thought, they probably tied the 9' deep strike bubble to ensure melta doesn't get half range because the 2d6 drop lowest is pretty powerful. THey'd have to to tone that down for sure.

I mean honestly this is kind of overcompensation from the previous editions where Melta was king (looking squarely at Blood Angels and IG) and pretty much the weapon of choice. This has tilted back to plasma. I do agree perhaps a small tweak would be nice to carve out a better role for Melta but am not quite sure how since the 9" deep strike rule prevents other abuses. But the way that rule is in play now, the only thing I can think of is to change the range of melta to 18" full and 9" half range to give that incentive to take it again. Would it be overpowering....not sure? We'd probably go back to the Meltas for deep strikers and Plasma for foot walkers. I guess that is a better world? Honestly, it's just a return to 6th or 7th edition world. Is that better? On one hand, we'd have 2 different weapons so a bit more variety but they are sort of doing the something at end of the day.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/31 04:01:46


 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




Plasma in this edition saw probably the most significant change, that being the two profile system it currently has.

Now in my experience in 40k, the plasma in no way counts as a super spam weapon, those were reserved for the weapons that were just too good for how much they costed (Assault cannons 5e, Graviton weapons 6,7th) These guns fundamentally were incredibly cheap and/or effective for their points cost. Plasma hasn't really touched this area.

Current edition made it come closer to that area, but is still just a bit too ineffective with some armies that there isn't a case of super spam (because all armies are not equal). But the disposition of it has been rather...... extreme to say the least.

I would say make the risk factor of the plasma more in line with other factors in last editions. One thing stands out this edition that other editions either had very few or none of this feature. And that is....... re-rolls

most re-rolls were reserved for psychic powers or in the extreme cases warlord traits. They were a niche thing that made some things vary in performance or perform way better than the average.

However, now in 8th edition, with the addition of aura's. This once rarity is now soo common, you could throw a dart into a random HQ unit and they might have a re-roll in some form (usually re-roll 1's)

And here lies the problem.

Plasma has always been a mid tier gun due to it being a risk/reward gun, it's high str and AP in last edition made it a 'jack of all trades' gun that could respond nicely to the majority of things on the table, the exception being the high priority targets, in that scenario YMMV.

However, with the mitigation of re-rolls in 8th and with the relative cheapness compared to it's specialty weapons, this once 'jack of all trades' suddenly became the go to gun for dealing with any target.

It still has that risk/reward factor (death to non vehicle/titanic units. MW for these targets and possible destruction of gun) but since the risk can be turned into inconsequential, that just leaves the effectiveness and price of the gun.

To remedy this, there are three options:

1. Increase the price of the weapon overall; this is more of a band aid solution and actually is quite terrible as the scaling across armies becomes even more apparent if it is implemented.

2. Change the mechanic of the weapon; This is the more sensible of the choices but it does mean that the gun itself has to change, possible into something that makes the gun not 'like itself'

3. Re enforce a mechanic in the gun; This one is the results may vary option, the (make it overheat on natural 1's regardless of re-rolls) option, this one can be both beneficial and detrimental to the gun depending on what is changed.


These three options are basically what you could do. at least IMO

edit: for those wondering why i didnt mention twin linked. It's because it only effected a single weapon and plasma usually didn't have a twin link built into the weapon. So it was mostly ignored for that reason

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/31 06:54:53


 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Irbis wrote:
bearer is killed on a 1 to hit

Why the hell should a terminator have the same chance of dying as some t-shirt IG mook?


You had to pass an armor save or die, typically - without plasma AP being involved. Thus, Termies were more survivable.

AnomanderRake wrote:

The rework of the S/T relationship and the removal of vehicle profiles made plasma counter-everything as much as the damage changes did; in 7th a plasma gun couldn't hurt AV14 at all (7+d6 capped out at 13) while melta was pretty good at it (8+2d6 has a 72% chance of getting to 14 or higher). I'm not advocating returning to the 'good old days' of a different to-wound mechanism for two different sorts of units for no appreciable reason, but I'm advocating a reduction to plasma's Strength so it can't hurt absolutely everything in the game reliably.


No appreciable reason? Maybe because they're two rather different kinds of unit?

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Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Infantryman wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:

The rework of the S/T relationship and the removal of vehicle profiles made plasma counter-everything as much as the damage changes did; in 7th a plasma gun couldn't hurt AV14 at all (7+d6 capped out at 13) while melta was pretty good at it (8+2d6 has a 72% chance of getting to 14 or higher). I'm not advocating returning to the 'good old days' of a different to-wound mechanism for two different sorts of units for no appreciable reason, but I'm advocating a reduction to plasma's Strength so it can't hurt absolutely everything in the game reliably.


No appreciable reason? Maybe because they're two rather different kinds of unit?


Maybe. But to dredge up a very old argument what makes a Dreadnaught a 'Vehicle' and a Riptide a 'Monstrous Creature'?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

Why not give melta weapons +1 to wound in half range ?
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




NY

Jumping on the wagon here, I think it's difficult to stop plasma from being a better anti-infantry than a bolter but any price is more than 0 so that's forgivable as its an upgrade like any other. As for vehicles I really dislike that overcharged plasma is S8 since that's the highest toughness likely to be seen form anything less than a lord of war. I do see the need for a non anti-heavy tank weapon that does multiple damage though.

I like the thought of the overcharged profile being heavy 1 24" to increase the chance of backlash to non pointless levels and stopping it from being the ultimate primaris/biker mowing machine.
I also like the thought of dealing the weapons profile rather than a mortal wound. BUT that would make it worse for primaris/bikers than Tac to take since it's still killing them outright. I'd rather have it deal 1d3 dmg and be unpredictable.
Finally going down to S6/7 would stop it from being better than melta at anti-tanking.
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





Plasma still doesent dish out damage without a support character and risky overheats.

I think Hell blasters are amazing (on paper) but not too many people would agree.
   
Made in gb
Snivelling Workbot





I think part of the problem with plasma is that the other choices just aren't good enough, Grav, flamer and Melta massively fall behind plasma making it the obvious choice the sensible option is to increase the cost of the plasma weapon a little bit so that the other options seem better in comparison.

Anyone who has ever used Plasma Kataphron destroyers, knows the risk of overcharge on 3 wound, multi-shot “expensive models”, yes a cheap guardsman or marine doesn’t care about overcharging so much, but a hell blaster or terminator should. I’ve wiped out my entire own squad of Kataphron’s on a single overcharge, 3D6 shots is a chance for a whole lot of ones …. but the risk doesn’t outweigh the reward so we continue to do it because the model has done its job its shot at the target.

So on top of adding about 1 point to the cost of each weapon I would change the overcharge rule down from “model is slain “To an identical rule to the perils of the warp the model takes d3 mortal wounds rolled by your opponent and if the model is slain any Shots from the weapon fail.
Certain to kill 1 wound models 33% change for 2 wound models and unlikely to outright kill 3 wound models or characters but still a serious pain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/07 10:41:27


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




synthaside wrote:
I think part of the problem with plasma is that the other choices just aren't good enough, Grav, flamer and Melta massively fall behind plasma making it the obvious choice the sensible option is to increase the cost of the plasma weapon a little bit so that the other options seem better in comparison.

Anyone who has ever used Plasma Kataphron destroyers, knows the risk of overcharge on 3 wound, multi-shot “expensive models”, yes a cheap guardsman or marine doesn’t care about overcharging so much, but a hell blaster or terminator should. I’ve wiped out my entire own squad of Kataphron’s on a single overcharge, 3D6 shots is a chance for a whole lot of ones …. but the risk doesn’t outweigh the reward so we continue to do it because the model has done its job its shot at the target.

So on top of adding about 1 point to the cost of each weapon I would change the overcharge rule down from “model is slain “To an identical rule to the perils of the warp the model takes d3 mortal wounds rolled by your opponent and if the model is slain any Shots from the weapon fail.
Certain to kill 1 wound models 33% change for 2 wound models and unlikely to outright kill 3 wound models or characters but still a serious pain.


The problem with plasma is not that it is better than flamers or melta, but that overcharged plasma makes pretty much all two-models non-viable or, at best, semi-viable. The solution is to make plasma D1 on both profiles, or simply remove the overcharged profile from the game
   
 
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