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 Primark G wrote:
The only way to run DevCents is las/missile.

Yeah, I think that's the best choice if you're running DevCents. The bolter boys are just too short ranged to do their thing. And as far as I'm concerned Grav Cannons don't exist in 8E.

Grav used to be so good... now plasma is king.

I use my Cents in 1 of 2 ways. Either Assault or Bolters. The bolters are mediocre with IF tactics, but if supported with units I usually bring anyways (Rhino Primaris and various rerolls) they can do pretty well. Also with Guilliman they can do some work because of the reroll wounds. Enough shots out of them will threaten a lot of stuff but you are paying a lot to basically keep the rest of your army safe for a turn or 2 while the enemy kills the Cents. Assault ones I use either in a Raven or with SftS, and have had decent luck. Just don't expect them to last long or get their points back.

Infiltrate raven guard assault centurions. It's brutal.

Would Aggressors be a better choice for the points?

Maybe, but 3 assault centurions have six meltagun shots and start within 12", and the drills are much nastier than the fists.

The drills are great and I have used them.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Assault Centurions are OK:ish. A tad expensive but they can be made to work.

Devastator Centurions however, are so overpriced that I wonder why GW even bothered to put them in the codex...

Last edition, grav cannons where op and wrecked everything. Dev centurions can take 2 and wreck face.

 Primark G wrote:
Would Aggressors be a better choice for the points?

Not necessarily.

Centurions have an additional wound with the 2+, which basically makes them twice as durable to any D2 weapons based off the wound alone. The firepower is also pretty comparable overall. However, Aggressors require less investment to get anything out of them as the initial cost is entirely less. 4 aggressors is only 170 maybe?

The biggest problem with Dev Centurions is that the Bolter setup is the best (sadly) with the Grav second. The bolter setup is outperformed by Inceptors or regular Devastators, and the Grav is too limited range wise on a slow platform. I love my Centurions but I have abandoned the Devastator ones completely and usually will run the Assault with Meltas and Hurricanes.

Yeah the Drvastator Centurions are 110 minimum? That's way too ridiculous for a T5 3 wound platform.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah the Drvastator Centurions are 110 minimum? That's way too ridiculous for a T5 3 wound platform.

*looks at his stack of Tau Commanders* But...aww.... :(

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah the Drvastator Centurions are 110 minimum? That's way too ridiculous for a T5 3 wound platform.

This is it in a nutshell. They are way over costed in their base PPM. Dunno what GW was thinking there.

Your completely forgetting they have a 2+ save. While in ruins it becomes a 1+ save. Even at -3AP they still get a 4+ save.


There aren't a lot of shooting weapons you can spam at long range with -3 or -4 ap.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Your completely forgetting they have a 2+ save. While in ruins it becomes a 1+ save. Even at -3AP they still get a 4+ save.


There aren't a lot of shooting weapons you can spam at long range with -3 or -4 ap.

Even a 3+ fails 1/3 the time. Let's look at the common plasma gun. Give the Cents the advantage of cover. We'll give the enemy re-roll 1's because that's super common, especially with plasma. 6 shots (less than one squad's worth usually) does 3.11 wounds, killing a Centurion. The squad is significantly cheaper and almost always coming from deep strike so can't really stop them in advance.

How about the lascannon? 4 shots kills a Centurion in cover. 4 shots overkills a Centurion at 3.63. From 48" away.

Now let's look at something really dangerous, like a Fire Raptor.

24 bolter shots at S5 AP-1: 1.56 wounds.
10 medium shots at S7 AP-2 2D: 3.46
4 lascannon shots: 3.63

Even in cover you have 1 Centurion left with 1 HP. The Fire Raptor is faster and longer range so it hits you first. Insultingly, the Fire Raptor is 362 points. A Centurion squad is 330 points with just Hurricane and Heavy Bolters. Giving them Missile Launchers and Lascannons makes them 465!

The Fire Raptor is more durable too at T7 (higher than the Cents), 16 wounds (more than the Cents) and a -1 to Hit effect for enemies (nothing there for the Cents either).

Oh but it's not just Raptors. How about Dark Reapers? Yep, they'll kill the Cents too. 3 Starshots re-rolling 1's do 1.56 average wounds to the Cents even in cover at 48" range and for only 81 points! If you take 330 points of Dark Reapers (same as our minimum Centurions) they're dealing 6.22 average wounds, decimating our Centurion squad. While the Reapers have lower toughness than the Centurions, at that point level they have more wounds (12), which is a 33% bump! The Dark Reapers are faster than the 4" move on those Cents too!

How about the humble Imperial Guard Basilisk? This guy doesn't need line of sight and has 200" range! It's 1.36 wounds from just the main gun (not counting Heavy Bolter) on one of them. It takes about 3 of them to equal our Cent squad in points, which means, pow, 4.07 average wounds. RIP 1 Centurion per turn from an untargetable, unreachable enemy. Even better, 3 Basilisks are 33 wounds at T7! Waaaaay more durable! Like the Dark Reapers they're faster too!

A Manticore? 2.26 wounds per Manticore for less than half the cost. You can figure it out from here.

Now strip that +1 from cover and watch the Cents get massacred even further.

2+ with no invulnerable is very squish in this game (heck, Terminators are considered too squish and they get a 5++ with only 1 less wound!). The Cents cost so much you can't take too much other heavy support with them. They're so slow basically any other anti-tank gun in the game will get to start out of their range then move into their range and kill them before they can respond. Cents are just too expensive for what they do.

Yeah I would much rather have a Fire Raptor.

Cents do 1 thing that no other unit can do, and it is worth considering but only ever worth doing in a fun game, or if you are trying to counter an opponent you think you are playing... they can fit more heavy weapons in a single squad for buffs than any other unit. So, for instance, the HB2 versions with +1 to hit from Rhino Primaris and Bolter Drill Stratagem will put out more shots than any other single unit. In fact, they will do almost 9 wounds to even a Land Raider. Over 26 wounds to marines. 56 wounds to Guardsmen. All those numbers are after the saves are made as well. So it is impressive... but usually overkill and like 700 points. So while it can be fun it isn't practical.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Your completely forgetting they have a 2+ save. While in ruins it becomes a 1+ save. Even at -3AP they still get a 4+ save.


There aren't a lot of shooting weapons you can spam at long range with -3 or -4 ap.

Yeah but in the world where scions instantly pay off twice the moment they drop vs this type of durability, it's not that great.

 koooaei wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Your completely forgetting they have a 2+ save. While in ruins it becomes a 1+ save. Even at -3AP they still get a 4+ save.


There aren't a lot of shooting weapons you can spam at long range with -3 or -4 ap.

Yeah but in the world where scions instantly pay off twice the moment they drop vs this type of durability, it's not that great.

koooaei just hit it right on the head, there are currently too many cheap hard counters to Centurions for them to be viable. Just like the rest of the vanilla marine codex. Scions are one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game right now.

Well if you aren’t screening your devastators centurions against scions you kind of deserve to lose. If those actions drop in and only get to fire at infiltrating scouts they feel a lot less good.

It’s still very hard to make a case for devastators centurions. Even Captain Garius’ point about getting a load of heavy bolter shots in a unit isn’t really true, as inceptors exist.

I think there’s a potential use for them in a bastion or bunker. The T9 bastion in particular is quite annoying to have to kill, and it gives the unit great lines of sight. Even when it does die the centurions are still alive (mostly) so your opponent has to find more shooting for them.

I don’t think this is all that special, but it seems less awful than a lot of ways to use these guys.

 ultimentra wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Your completely forgetting they have a 2+ save. While in ruins it becomes a 1+ save. Even at -3AP they still get a 4+ save.


There aren't a lot of shooting weapons you can spam at long range with -3 or -4 ap.

Yeah but in the world where scions instantly pay off twice the moment they drop vs this type of durability, it's not that great.

koooaei just hit it right on the head, there are currently too many cheap hard counters to Centurions for them to be viable. Just like the rest of the vanilla marine codex. Scions are one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game right now.

Centurions Devastator have never been viable by themselves from the day they were created due to their cost and their own defficient. The reason it is called "too OP" back on the days of 7th edition is wholly relying on the infamous "Draigo - Tigirius conclave - Gravcannon Centurion" combo, using invisibility and Gate of Infinity to get rid of its own fragility and "almost zero" mobility so it becomes "super OP". In 8th edition such a thing is kaput. So Centurion is now back to the tier "good on stateline on paper, rubbish on real tabletop".