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Flyers are not bad, the problem is any unit that is 150pts + that cant be spam, can be targeted, or doesnt DS is consider bad.

 Blackie wrote:
orks flyers are also decent, if not better they're surely as good as they were before

Ork flyers are trash. But since all the army is trash, they feel "decent". A Dakkajet kills 3 marines a turn or 6 guards, for 148pts. Shoota boyz do the same, but can fight in Close combat and hold objectives.

The other flyers are just so bad it hurts just to try to compare them. A Crimson Hunter deals 100% more damage-per-point than a Wazbom Blastajet while having the same defensive profile, more manoeuvrability, re-roll wounds against FLY and a Craftworld trait.

 Nym wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
orks flyers are also decent, if not better they're surely as good as they were before

Ork flyers are trash. But since all the army is trash, they feel "decent". A Dakkajet kills 3 marines a turn or 6 guards, for 148pts. Shoota boyz do the same, but can fight in Close combat and hold objectives.

The other flyers are just so bad it hurts just to try to compare them. A Crimson Hunter deals 100% more damage-per-point than a Wazbom Blastajet while having the same defensive profile, more manoeuvrability, re-roll wounds against FLY and a Craftworld trait.

They surely weren't better in 7th edition though.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
The Harpy and Hive Crone have 30 inch movement. If the opponent did not properly bubble wrap, they gonna to conviently fly over those Scout screen before charge the Devastators / Predators T1!!!! Considering how closely packed these shooty units will be deployed in order to all staying in the aura buff range, they might be able to charge multiple heavy fire power units at once, or even worse, consolidate into the 2nd one after killing the 1st one. SO, they can act as vanguards to neutralize enemy heavy fire power at the game opening moment, then the rest units can approach the enemy line under much less firepower. This is a thing that Flyrants, who "only" have a 16" move, cannot easily achieve without the aid of Swarmlord (which cost 300pts) or psychic power (which run the risk of fail to go off or getting denied).

One issue with this is that you are depending on opponent making mistake. How long before you think opponent will learn to bubble wrap?


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Tristanleo wrote:
I feel that some of the shifting attitude to flyers comes down to the loss of the rock paper scissors aspect I saw when I played them.

When I played flyers and my opponent had no anti-air, I usually won by a good margin.
When I played fliers and my opponent had anti air, that was a tough battle, easily won or lost by both sides.
When I did not play fliers and my opponent brought anti air. again, I usually felt I won by a decent margin.

With the shift on the flier rules, it now feels that fliers no longer need to be threatened by a dedicated unit in order to be countered. Sometimes it does feel like my fliers go down too fast, but that's usually because my opponent just focused a good chunk of shooting on them instead of something else.

Then again in 7th ed fliers never felt particularly nasty. Yes they were tough to hit(though went down in flames if you did) but were expensive and weren't generally that big of a threat for gun boats. Assault ones even less as turn 3 assault was EARLIEST you could.

Biggest issue I have now with fliers is they feel all wrong. They aren't THAT hard to hit(marines hit them on 4+) but are rather robust in stead. Fliers should be hard to hit but don't take getting hit too well. What sort of weird fliers 40k has when it's reverse of current era. Easy to hit, hard to take down with hit?

As it is with some fliers like valkyries flying is bad idea. It's more of T7 6 lascannon platform. Stand still rerolling 1's. -1 to hit is there just for if you go 2nd. Once you get turn you go hover and just shoot lascannons. That's no flier. That's turn 1 -1 to hit T7 leman russ. You bring those to get 6 lascannons on pseudo-russ platform. Not because it's flier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

 Nym wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
orks flyers are also decent, if not better they're surely as good as they were before

Ork flyers are trash. But since all the army is trash, they feel "decent". A Dakkajet kills 3 marines a turn or 6 guards, for 148pts. Shoota boyz do the same, but can fight in Close combat and hold objectives.

The other flyers are just so bad it hurts just to try to compare them. A Crimson Hunter deals 100% more damage-per-point than a Wazbom Blastajet while having the same defensive profile, more manoeuvrability, re-roll wounds against FLY and a Craftworld trait.

They surely weren't better in 7th edition though.

Burna bombers at least had a role with templates that helped with ork BS(not true) and ignore cover(which is less useful in 8th ed)

tneva82 wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
The Harpy and Hive Crone have 30 inch movement. If the opponent did not properly bubble wrap, they gonna to conviently fly over those Scout screen before charge the Devastators / Predators T1!!!! Considering how closely packed these shooty units will be deployed in order to all staying in the aura buff range, they might be able to charge multiple heavy fire power units at once, or even worse, consolidate into the 2nd one after killing the 1st one. SO, they can act as vanguards to neutralize enemy heavy fire power at the game opening moment, then the rest units can approach the enemy line under much less firepower. This is a thing that Flyrants, who "only" have a 16" move, cannot easily achieve without the aid of Swarmlord (which cost 300pts) or psychic power (which run the risk of fail to go off or getting denied).

One issue with this is that you are depending on opponent making mistake. How long before you think opponent will learn to bubble wrap?

There is never a "right" bubble wrap against Nidz. If you want to stop the Hive Crone / Harpy alpha charges I mentioned above, It is better to deploy your screening units no more than 5/6 inches from the heavy fire units, to prevent the Harpy from being placed between the scouts and Devastators. However, this would means you give up board control, and risk your juicy Devastator being shot off the board by 30 Devilguants coming out of Trygon hole, if you are gonna prevent that shooty alpha strike, you have to place the scouts 9.1 inches from the target you want to protect, And that would allow the Harpy to jump over the screen and charge those juicy targets you want to protect.

You can stop the nidz with 2 layers.

Martel732 wrote:
You can stop the nidz with 2 layers.

Not many armies other then Guard bring that many bodies. And I mean pure guard, not soup.

Martel732 wrote:
You can stop the nidz with 2 layers.

Yeah, that could be one good idea. Two layer screen IS good to stop that "binary threat".

However, I think it might need 5 Scout Squads for Marines to do a proper double screen (3 squads at front, 2 at 2nd line). That means 110 more points are required compare to a basic Battlion detachment. i.e. at least one less Devastators with dual Lascannon or 1 less Asscannon Razorback.

I usually roll out six troops. Three scouts, and two tacs/one intercessor or three tacs. Also, if a harpy wants to come assault a BA army, good luck to them!

 Nym wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
orks flyers are also decent, if not better they're surely as good as they were before

Ork flyers are trash. But since all the army is trash, they feel "decent". A Dakkajet kills 3 marines a turn or 6 guards, for 148pts. Shoota boyz do the same, but can fight in Close combat and hold objectives.

Shoota Boyz are not T6, 4+, and -1 to hit though. While it isn't the ideal flyer it isn't horrible internally, either.

The other flyers are just so bad it hurts just to try to compare them. A Crimson Hunter deals 100% more damage-per-point than a Wazbom Blastajet while having the same defensive profile, more manoeuvrability, re-roll wounds against FLY and a Craftworld trait.

Which makes it really pointless to judge Ork flyers right now anyway. We need a book to know where their stuff will land.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I love my DE flyers, i take 1-2 every game, tho never more than 2. They actually are strong against Melee focus armies, but weak to shooting ones. As they should be.

I take 7. Embrace the speed.

Thats over 1000pts lol, unless its a 4k+ game why? They only need to kill 1/2 you army to auto win lol.

I play SM and TBH I don’t have any problems with fliers. They are so much easier to hit now with multi damage ranged weapons.

Necron flyers has the potential to be very good with the next codex. Kinda wanting to see them.

Flyers were massively overpowered before the nerf. Now how bad they are is situational. Many armies still don't have the AA to be able to put them down. The ones that do deal with flyers just fine, they're not too weak or too strong. The ones that don't have the AA still find flyers to be overpowered.

 Melissia wrote:
Flyers were massively overpowered before the nerf. Now how bad they are is situational. Many armies still don't have the AA to be able to put them down. The ones that do deal with flyers just fine, they're not too weak or too strong. The ones that don't have the AA still find flyers to be overpowered.

Yeah they were overpowered if you wasted firepower firing at them. If you played it correctly(ie don't fire non-skyfire weapons unless you have VERY special situation or simply no better target. Otherwise just ignore it) they weren't. For the point costs their firepower wasn't generally all that impressive and as transports they were very much inefficient. So just ignoring them was generally best play. Best use for fliers was actually to tempt opponent into mistake of using weapons like lascannon to shoot at them from better targets.

tneva82 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Flyers were massively overpowered before the nerf. Now how bad they are is situational. Many armies still don't have the AA to be able to put them down. The ones that do deal with flyers just fine, they're not too weak or too strong. The ones that don't have the AA still find flyers to be overpowered.

Yeah they were overpowered if you wasted firepower firing at them. If you played it correctly(ie don't fire non-skyfire weapons unless you have VERY special situation or simply no better target. Otherwise just ignore it) they weren't. For the point costs their firepower wasn't generally all that impressive and as transports they were very much inefficient. So just ignoring them was generally best play. Best use for fliers was actually to tempt opponent into mistake of using weapons like lascannon to shoot at them from better targets.

Well near the start of 8th you say 8 Flyer lists and... that was about it, some had a Gman, or a Dante for re-rolls, but it was impossible to ignore them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Flyers were massively overpowered before the nerf. Now how bad they are is situational. Many armies still don't have the AA to be able to put them down. The ones that do deal with flyers just fine, they're not too weak or too strong. The ones that don't have the AA still find flyers to be overpowered.

Yeah they were overpowered if you wasted firepower firing at them. If you played it correctly(ie don't fire non-skyfire weapons unless you have VERY special situation or simply no better target. Otherwise just ignore it) they weren't. For the point costs their firepower wasn't generally all that impressive and as transports they were very much inefficient. So just ignoring them was generally best play. Best use for fliers was actually to tempt opponent into mistake of using weapons like lascannon to shoot at them from better targets.

Well near the start of 8th you say 8 Flyer lists and... that was about it, some had a Gman, or a Dante for re-rolls, but it was impossible to ignore them.

Ah sorry mixed editions. Somehow thought he was refering to 7th ed fliers. 8th ed ones got hefty boost in firepower(well some. Vendetta took a hit unless it wants to be sitting duck)

Remember certain armies like Tau could smoke fliers so at a very competitive level they were too risky to take due to the potential of a bad matchup... if they were forced to jink then it wasted their fire power. The Heldrake was really good at first and totally outclassed Space Marine armies (i.e., broken). Flyrants were really good though because of being able to have FNP and serve multiple roles.

tneva82 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Flyers were massively overpowered before the nerf. Now how bad they are is situational. Many armies still don't have the AA to be able to put them down. The ones that do deal with flyers just fine, they're not too weak or too strong. The ones that don't have the AA still find flyers to be overpowered.

Yeah they were overpowered if you wasted firepower firing at them. If you played it correctly(ie don't fire non-skyfire weapons unless you have VERY special situation or simply no better target. Otherwise just ignore it) they weren't. For the point costs their firepower wasn't generally all that impressive and as transports they were very much inefficient. So just ignoring them was generally best play. Best use for fliers was actually to tempt opponent into mistake of using weapons like lascannon to shoot at them from better targets.

I have run into a 1850pts list with Inferno Tetra and Helldrake Terror pack during the end of 7th edition. 4 flying DP (2 of which were buffed to 2++ rerollable so can land and charge me) and 3 Helldrakes tabled me within 5 Turns. All what I did in damage is killing one Helldrake he landed on the ground (not knowing why he did that) with my Chapter Master Smashfxxker.

 Melissia wrote:
Flyers were massively overpowered before the nerf. Now how bad they are is situational. Many armies still don't have the AA to be able to put them down. The ones that do deal with flyers just fine, they're not too weak or too strong. The ones that don't have the AA still find flyers to be overpowered.

What AA ? Just bring your usual AT lascannons and shoot them with. -1 to hit is just not enough to protect them, especially with all the rerolls.