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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Azoqu wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Well, I feel justified in going back to my 7E army. They didn't even address what happens when an Aspiring Sorcerer perils.

Why would they need to add extra words to rules that are already non-ambiguous.

Just because you want the extremely clear rule to be something else doesn't make it ambiguous.

There are many problems that arise when an Aspiring Sorcerer perils.

1 - Do they die horribly and then deal D3 mortal wounds to their squad (D3+1 total damage to them)? Or do the wounds they take spill over and then they explode dealing a total of 2D3 to the squad in total?
2 - If it's the second, then when the Rubrics die, since they are all Psykers, do they also explode for D3 damage each since they are a Psyker who died to a peril of the warp? If so then they would do a total of 3D3 mortal wounds if the peril did 3 wounds to the squad.

There are other problems, but those are the main two that arise from the Aspiring Sorcerer periling.

It's fairly clear. Mortal wounds spill over so 2D3 wounds to the unit. Why would a psyker unit type being killed by a perils explosion suffer perils? There is no such interaction.

It's the models dying from the original D3 damage that blow up, not the ones from the peril explosion. If you roll 3 damage, the aspiring and 2 rubrics die to it and they are all Psykers dying to periling.

No one is five is pure garbage as long as the CSM entry stays the same. There is no reason to take rubrics as a thousand son player other than to make it a troop choice............which is nearly useless. Either nerf the CSM rubric entry or buff ours, anything else is idiocy (I also play CSM).
Could care less about most of the FAQ but no double tapping FW kinda sucks. Oh well, Im used to it from playing chaos as we can never have nice things because Horus did nothing wrong. Its a good thing my double butcher array Lev still does work. Was thinking about adding a Dual C-beam contemptor but now its less attractive.

But the aspiring sorc business is pure sloppy. Hey guys, we made Rubrics more of a value for their high cost, your asp's can now take and cast a power.....to bad you wont ever do that due to the very real risk of wiping out half of your very expensive squad. Asps should have a special rule for perils and perhaps a debuff on the unit if it dies, like -1 to hit. Currently I almost never cast off a aspiring unless I have re-roll available. But then again I only take Rubrics and SoTs in casual lists, so it really shouldnt matter.

I was hoping for the best with this codex. What we got was un-inspired and quickly shot out. Sure its better than index even with Magnus getting the hard slap into casualhood. But it could have been so much more. I hope it will be much more next edition. Ill hold out hope. And after a few games I can easily say we are a powerful faction and reasons to include us into soup. Magnus, Rubrics and SoTs just are not those reasons....which is sad because it is our most iconic units. Either way cant bitch to much, 8th has some serious teething issues with alpha damage and elite infantry costs. Ill hold out hope for 9th and just enjoy what I have now and not worry about winning games with my Rubric centered TS lists. I am getting insane mileage out of spawn now however. Either I am super lucky or they are still flying under the radar.

Pardon me, as I'm probably missing something...but are people complaining about Thousand Sons Marines not getting additional special weapons? Do they not have a bolt gun that's heads and shoulders above any other basic infantry weapon in the game?

Or did that change at some point?

 Elbows wrote:
Pardon me, as I'm probably missing something...but are people complaining about Thousand Sons Marines not getting additional special weapons? Do they not have a bolt gun that's heads and shoulders above any other basic infantry weapon in the game?

Or did that change at some point?

Any other? I have never once wished my admech destroyers were using rubric guns instead.

I do think it's odd rubrics in their own codex have to run 10 for a special weapon personally.

Same, I find it rather odd given even my Noise Marines can run two blastmasters for ten.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
....ok. Shelf time I suppose for me.

It smells to me like the cheapest form of "let's build rules based on what the box includes". Every single infantry in the game that's not a cultist or a guardsman can get a special/heavy weapon in 5 models. normal marines can, plague marines can, sonic marines can. Except Rubrics. Because frick logic and frick your audience.

Man I am so salty right now :(

Dark Eldar Kabalite Warriors cri every time.

So CSM Rubrics can have one reaper soulcannon for every 5 rubrics but only know babysmite and TS rubrics can have one reaper soulcannon for every 10 rubrics but know proper psychic powers?

That is correct.

Assuming the psyker powers are worth while I think 1k sons might come out ahead here.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
....ok. Shelf time I suppose for me.

It smells to me like the cheapest form of "let's build rules based on what the box includes". Every single infantry in the game that's not a cultist or a guardsman can get a special/heavy weapon in 5 models. normal marines can, plague marines can, sonic marines can. Except Rubrics. Because frick logic and frick your audience.

Man I am so salty right now :(

You really need some imagination upgrades


It's the most diverse codex of them all and if played correctly and in tandem with DeathGuard - unbeatable (this part might annoying since you will be intentionally gimping yourself not to scare opponents/friends away)


You have super characters in the form of dual psychic power Demon Princes

Free command re-roll every turn

Sorcerers that can destroy stuff at long OR close range and that you can power up with boons before sending them into the fray

Ironically the top tier melee units per points spent, Tzaangors with all the buffs and psychic powers, plus double activation for 2 not 3 CP makes them insanely point effective

Good relics

Best psychic power selection

Strategems to make anything you're doing more reliable


It's the most strategically diverse army of them all

The most strategically diverse army is Tyranids. Thousand Sons are not strategically diverse, Thousand Sons have exactly one strategy (buff the goats until you've double their points cost). I'm not convinced that tzaangors will replace bloodletters or berzerkers as a key assault unit in Chaos lists because they require so much support to function; I suspect the biggest impact the codex will have on the competitive scene is the introduction of Ahriman and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch to otherwise non-Thousand Sons lists.

 Elbows wrote:
Pardon me, as I'm probably missing something...but are people complaining about Thousand Sons Marines not getting additional special weapons? Do they not have a bolt gun that's heads and shoulders above any other basic infantry weapon in the game?

Or did that change at some point?

They suffer from all your eggs in one basket syndrome.

Problem is at the end of the day they are still just bolters. -2 AP is helpful, but when a 20 man squad in rapid fire range struggles to kill 20 guardsman with out support While costing 5x the points. Meanwhile, those same guardsman at 400 poimts will kill 200 points of Rubrics.

Imagine you could put Plasma Rifles on any guardsman. Would you put 10 per squad, or would you put like 3 or 4 per squad? You would go with 3 or 4 because ablative wounds are somewhat useful. We pay 20 points for 1 abalitive wound.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The most strategically diverse army is Tyranids. Thousand Sons are not strategically diverse, Thousand Sons have exactly one strategy (buff the goats until you've double their points cost). I'm not convinced that tzaangors will replace bloodletters or berzerkers as a key assault unit in Chaos lists because they require so much support to function; I suspect the biggest impact the codex will have on the competitive scene is the introduction of Ahriman and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch to otherwise non-Thousand Sons lists.

How are Tyranids more diverse again?


Also the +4 to Psychic test and a re-roll or 2 mean that you're nearly guaranteed to cast any psychic power you want, making it the most reliable faction as well

Also if preparation/strategy and the need for "much support to function" is an issue, you shouldn't really be playing Chaos, as it's an army of more choice if a player can comprehend them all. It's not Tyranids or Space Marines where stuff is much more straight forward.

Kids these days. Before a couple of years ago all Rubrics had were Bolters and two wounds apiece- and they had a lot going for them.

 Dovis wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The most strategically diverse army is Tyranids. Thousand Sons are not strategically diverse, Thousand Sons have exactly one strategy (buff the goats until you've double their points cost). I'm not convinced that tzaangors will replace bloodletters or berzerkers as a key assault unit in Chaos lists because they require so much support to function; I suspect the biggest impact the codex will have on the competitive scene is the introduction of Ahriman and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch to otherwise non-Thousand Sons lists.

How are Tyranids more diverse again?


Also the +4 to Psychic test and a re-roll or 2 mean that you're nearly guaranteed to cast any psychic power you want, making it the most reliable faction as well

Also if preparation/strategy and the need for "much support to function" is an issue, you shouldn't really be playing Chaos, as it's an army of more choice if a player can comprehend them all. It's not Tyranids or Space Marines where stuff is much more straight forward.

Let me guess, you think Tyranids are a pure assault army.

The +4 to psychic tests is pretty good! But it just funnels into the same strategy of buffing goats because you're using it to get Warptime or another buff spell off (maybe death hex instead if you're feeling spicy). I agree Chaos is all about supercharging a unit into god mode; I dropped Thousand Sons because I didn't want that unit to be tzaangors. I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of just being too stupid to grasp the army though, thanks.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Kids these days. Before a couple of years ago all Rubrics had were Bolters and two wounds apiece- and they had a lot going for them.

I wasn't around prior to mid/late 7th so I can't speak personally but everything I've heard indicates that Rubrics have almost always been the worst cult marine, which is impressive because it's only recently that the other ones stopped being bad.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Pardon me, as I'm probably missing something...but are people complaining about Thousand Sons Marines not getting additional special weapons? Do they not have a bolt gun that's heads and shoulders above any other basic infantry weapon in the game?

Or did that change at some point?

They suffer from all your eggs in one basket syndrome.

Problem is at the end of the day they are still just bolters. -2 AP is helpful, but when a 20 man squad in rapid fire range struggles to kill 20 guardsman with out support While costing 5x the points. Meanwhile, those same guardsman at 400 poimts will kill 200 points of Rubrics.

Imagine you could put Plasma Rifles on any guardsman. Would you put 10 per squad, or would you put like 3 or 4 per squad? You would go with 3 or 4 because ablative wounds are somewhat useful. We pay 20 points for 1 abalitive wound.

That is what you have cultists for, 40 ablative wounds, that you can return for 2 CP to soak up the damage again, unlike guardsmen, so Cultists are still the best screen unit in game


You're looking at it the wrong way. Rubric marines = 1 spare sorcerer as a troop choice. Meaning you have Cultists for screen, Tzaangors for shock n awe and Rubrics as a filler with a twist

Ad Ahriman and a DPand and you have a very solid and versatile core to build on

Those 40 ablative wounds don't protect the heavy weapon/sorcerer though. Enemy simply shoots at them unless he can wipe all 40 away right away thus robbing you from recycle.

Ablative wound only works if it's same squad as the target you want to protect. Or target is character but the heavy weapon/squad sorcerer aren't so ablative wounds are flat out ignored.

 Dovis wrote:


That is what you have cultists for, 40 ablative wounds, that you can return for 2 CP to soak up the damage again, unlike guardsmen, so Cultists are still the best screen unit in game

Yeah, that's a nice strat, not available to 1KSons. Even if it were, it just ensures that your enemy puts one extra attack into thta unit to ensure a morale wipe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, hears a pretty basic comparison:

1K Rubrics benefit from 1) +6" cast distance 2) actual psychic power 3) Troop choice rather than elite 4) Deepstrike strat

CSM Rubrics benefit from 1) access to the SRC at MSU 2) access to legion traits

So it really comes down to what you want your Rubrics to do. Do you want them popping out of rhinos in groups of 5, laying down good fire and being hard to shoot? Or do you want them deepstriking to try and do some decent damage (but of course they compete with Scarabs in this role)?

Having played with both, Alpha Legion Rubrics with SRC are actually a great objective camper, and get -1 to hit natively, rather than having to risk perilling, and using up a key buff, in order to get it for one round. 1KSons Rubrics can do work if you're willing to feed them CPs to make them effective, which means going 10-man anyway really.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The most strategically diverse army is Tyranids. Thousand Sons are not strategically diverse, Thousand Sons have exactly one strategy (buff the goats until you've double their points cost). I'm not convinced that tzaangors will replace bloodletters or berzerkers as a key assault unit in Chaos lists because they require so much support to function; I suspect the biggest impact the codex will have on the competitive scene is the introduction of Ahriman and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch to otherwise non-Thousand Sons lists.

How are Tyranids more diverse again?


Also the +4 to Psychic test and a re-roll or 2 mean that you're nearly guaranteed to cast any psychic power you want, making it the most reliable faction as well

Also if preparation/strategy and the need for "much support to function" is an issue, you shouldn't really be playing Chaos, as it's an army of more choice if a player can comprehend them all. It's not Tyranids or Space Marines where stuff is much more straight forward.

Let me guess, you think Tyranids are a pure assault army.

The +4 to psychic tests is pretty good! But it just funnels into the same strategy of buffing goats because you're using it to get Warptime or another buff spell off (maybe death hex instead if you're feeling spicy). I agree Chaos is all about supercharging a unit into god mode; I dropped Thousand Sons because I didn't want that unit to be tzaangors. I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of just being too stupid to grasp the army though, thanks.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Kids these days. Before a couple of years ago all Rubrics had were Bolters and two wounds apiece- and they had a lot going for them.

I wasn't around prior to mid/late 7th so I can't speak personally but everything I've heard indicates that Rubrics have almost always been the worst cult marine, which is impressive because it's only recently that the other ones stopped being bad.

I didn't mean that as an insult on intelligence, it's a matter of reading it all and it's plenty more reading to be able to use ALL Chaos strategems and psychic powers than any other faction and not everyone bothers

For example if you're playing Imperium and in a standard 3 detachment setup for matched play, you're looking at 18 psychic powers tops and you're limited to using your strategems on the chapter they belong to

When with Chaos you have 18 in TS alone, then 18 more if you include Demons and another faction, like say Deathguard, that is already 2X the content. Then you have more units, with multiple keywords, that allow for various strategem interactions, totally impossible in Imperium. Multiply that and you have many times the strategic depth when compared to any imperium list, or xenos who are, I'd say the best for introducing newbies into 40k since they're the most limited

Tyranids while pretty versatile, but they're still limited with the choices they have, when you see a genestealer on the table - you know what it will do, when you see Chaos unit, it could be useless or it could be an important part of some strategy









Automatically Appended Next Post:

grouchoben wrote:

 Dovis wrote:


That is what you have cultists for, 40 ablative wounds, that you can return for 2 CP to soak up the damage again, unlike guardsmen, so Cultists are still the best screen unit in game

Yeah, that's a nice strat, not available to 1KSons. Even if it were, it just ensures that your enemy puts one extra attack into thta unit to ensure a morale wipe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, hears a pretty basic comparison:

1K Rubrics benefit from 1) +6" cast distance 2) actual psychic power 3) Troop choice rather than elite 4) Deepstrike strat

CSM Rubrics benefit from 1) access to the SRC at MSU 2) access to legion traits

So it really comes down to what you want your Rubrics to do. Do you want them popping out of rhinos in groups of 5, laying down good fire and being hard to shoot? Or do you want them deepstriking to try and do some decent damage (but of course they compete with Scarabs in this role)?

Having played with both, Alpha Legion Rubrics with SRC are actually a great objective camper, and get -1 to hit natively, rather than having to risk perilling, and using up a key buff, in order to get it for one round. 1KSons Rubrics can do work if you're willing to feed them CPs to make them effective, which means going 10-man anyway really.

And Plague Marines work better in Alpha legion as well, that's not the point.


Sure if you only bring TS - you're limited, but so you are as well with any single god/chapter.

However if you bring TS/SCM/DG or TS/Heretics and Renegades/Daemons, or any other combination including 2-3 different chapters, you're having ALL of the options.

Also you can use Tide of Traitors, it being a CSM strategem on TS as well, it's not limited to any single chapter that brought it. With Chaos it's all in the keywords


That's also fluffy as hell, so no one can call you "that guy" for dong it. That's how Cadia fell, with all Chaos Gods temporarily ending their squabble among themselves and for the bfiefest of moments concentrating on one goal


Chaos is unbeatable if done accordingly, so it's all about how much of a dick you want to be to your opponent

 Grimtuff wrote:
Kids these days. Before a couple of years ago all Rubrics had were Bolters and two wounds apiece- and they had a lot going for them.

"a couple" - 10+ years.
Man I feel old now.

And Plague Marines work better in Alpha legion as well, that's not the point.


Sure if you only bring TS - you're limited, but so you are as well with any single god/chapter.

However if you bring TS/SCM/DG or TS/Heretics and Renegades/Daemons, or any other combination including 2-3 different chapters, you're having ALL of the options.

Also you can use Tide of Traitors, it being a CSM strategem on TS as well, it's not limited to any single chapter that brought it. With Chaos it's all in the keywords


That's also fluffy as hell, so no one can call you "that guy" for dong it. That's how Cadia fell, with all Chaos Gods temporarily ending their squabble among themselves and for the bfiefest of moments concentrating on one goal


Chaos is unbeatable if done accordingly, so it's all about how much of a dick you want to be to your opponent

Plague marines have the same entry in the CSM and the DG codex. No matter what you choose to play, you get the same unit. Rubrics have two different entries for the same unit. That's what confuses people, not the 1 in 5 rule.

If you bring a chaos soup then it's not a TS army any more is it? And if you do bring a chaos soup, then you have about a million units better than Rubrics for the same role. So you are not taking rubrics. So you really only take them in TS lists.

Tide of traitors costs reinforcement points, doesn't it? If it does then it's out of the discussion.

As for Chaos being unstoppable if done accordingly, I will translate it as "Chaos is very strong if you bring a lot of Plagueburst Crawlers".

And I have to really disagree with you on "TS being a flexible army". They literally have one tactic: Drop a fat unit of X (X can be tzaangors if you want to win, scarabs if you are brave/crazy or rubrics if you are a romantic), buff it to the ears, let it kill. That's all armies with Rubrics are or have. You can't play a shooty army, because your basic guy costs 20 pts and -in the codex- you need 10 to get a cannon. Also all the witchfire spells are pretty weak and expensive (no idea why all kinds of psychic dakka need to do MW - what's wrong with good old str 4-5 hits?) So shooting is out.Or at least consistent, steady shooting is out. Alpha bursts of 20 rubrics with prescience and votlw will kill stuff, but that still takes us to strat #1. Hth is out for Rubrics. Sure the TS Daemon Princes kick ass and are way better than all the other DP's out there (weirdly enough for the same cost). But beside that what? Maulerfiends? Defilers? Yeah I didn't think so. You can play (and possibly also win) with tzaangors, but then you go back to the "Codex: Thousand Sons vs Codex: Tzaangors" debate.

The psychic power of TS in this edition really kills their flexibility rather than enhance it. With the way buffs and stratagems work, and with how weak wytchfires are, you really want to have one big deathstar unit rather than MSU and terrain control. If we had the ability to get a soulreaper per 5 models, then there would be a really good incentive to use your rubrics as MSU objective holders OR use them in a phat unit with deep strike stratagem. Right now, there's only one option.

 Dovis wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
....ok. Shelf time I suppose for me.

It smells to me like the cheapest form of "let's build rules based on what the box includes". Every single infantry in the game that's not a cultist or a guardsman can get a special/heavy weapon in 5 models. normal marines can, plague marines can, sonic marines can. Except Rubrics. Because frick logic and frick your audience.

Man I am so salty right now :(

You really need some imagination upgrades


It's the most diverse codex of them all and if played correctly and in tandem with DeathGuard - unbeatable (this part might annoying since you will be intentionally gimping yourself not to scare opponents/friends away)


You have super characters in the form of dual psychic power Demon Princes

Free command re-roll every turn

Sorcerers that can destroy stuff at long OR close range and that you can power up with boons before sending them into the fray

Ironically the top tier melee units per points spent, Tzaangors with all the buffs and psychic powers, plus double activation for 2 not 3 CP makes them insanely point effective

Good relics

Best psychic power selection

Strategems to make anything you're doing more reliable


It's the most strategically diverse army of them all

Is it "the most diverse codex of them all"? No. Is it diverse? Yes and No.
Yes it is diverse in a non competition setting. There are heaps and heaps of ways to build a 1kson army outside of soup. But the same can be said with chaos marines proper. Almost all of our units do work in some fashion and we have several unique choices now like the Death Guard have. You can make power armor heavy lists (and hand games to people outside of narrative), you can do mutant lists with gobs of goats and spawn. We can add in demons or another CSM chapter to cover our few weakness's. No one would debate we are now diverse. But we are also a baby faction along with death guard. This is our first codex and it shows. Its almost as if GW was stepping very lightly with the codex in fear of putting out a overpowered book. I just wish they were as careful with Eldar and Guard.

I plan to make another post to examine the under valued parts of our dex as I feel a lot of good is being covered by the very prolific rubbish. We have hits and miss's just like most faction codex releases. We got gor power while losing Magnus as a competitive tool. We got casting aspiring sorcs leading SoTs and Rubrics. But we also lost access to a very very good heavy weapon that our brother CSM codex did not. My point is there is a lot of sour with the sweet. And to the point of this post, the FAQ did not soften the blow of some of our more raw knocks. And to me, the most pronounced shafting was losing one in five on our Rubrics. There is no good reason for it, none. It was a lazy choice and I would say that if it happened to any faction.

TLDR. The lackluster FAQ is what in on trail here. Not the codex proper. And I am ready to sentence this FAQ to life in pen without parole. But that is just me.

We DO have some great options. Ahriman on disc is practically a cheat for his points. Prime suspect for nerfing down the road.

Our DP's are point to point better than the CSM DP's for the exact same points. And not better by little. +1 to invul saves, +1 power known, access to 2 more lores. Crazy gak.

Our plain sorcerer is the same as the CSM sorcerer, only he gets 1 more lore to choose spells from and also gets 5++ for free apparently. (Still not a good choice, which says much about the CSM one).

I would dare say that -for their price- Scarabs are better than most other terminators out there. Or at least more synergistic with the list. Still terminators are not viable with all the plasma spam around, but within the terminator family, I think scarabs go close to the top. Still, All is dust on the scarabs makes practically zero sense though.

Even though I hate them, tzaangors are strong for their points. The enlightened on paper look dirt cheap for what they do. Haven't seen them on the table though.

So we do have some great things going for us in the codex. Where we suffer is that the rubrics have no clear identity or purpose in the army and that our options are basically: a. play tzaangors, b. align with daemons, c. align with alpha legion CSM. Not in order to win a tournament, but in order play at your FLGS. And most TS players don't really want any of these options.

oh well, it's what we have I suppose.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

And Plague Marines work better in Alpha legion as well, that's not the point.


Sure if you only bring TS - you're limited, but so you are as well with any single god/chapter.

However if you bring TS/SCM/DG or TS/Heretics and Renegades/Daemons, or any other combination including 2-3 different chapters, you're having ALL of the options.

Also you can use Tide of Traitors, it being a CSM strategem on TS as well, it's not limited to any single chapter that brought it. With Chaos it's all in the keywords


That's also fluffy as hell, so no one can call you "that guy" for dong it. That's how Cadia fell, with all Chaos Gods temporarily ending their squabble among themselves and for the bfiefest of moments concentrating on one goal


Chaos is unbeatable if done accordingly, so it's all about how much of a dick you want to be to your opponent

Plague marines have the same entry in the CSM and the DG codex. No matter what you choose to play, you get the same unit. Rubrics have two different entries for the same unit. That's what confuses people, not the 1 in 5 rule.

If you bring a chaos soup then it's not a TS army any more is it? And if you do bring a chaos soup, then you have about a million units better than Rubrics for the same role. So you are not taking rubrics. So you really only take them in TS lists.

Tide of traitors costs reinforcement points, doesn't it? If it does then it's out of the discussion.

As for Chaos being unstoppable if done accordingly, I will translate it as "Chaos is very strong if you bring a lot of Plagueburst Crawlers".

And I have to really disagree with you on "TS being a flexible army". They literally have one tactic: Drop a fat unit of X (X can be tzaangors if you want to win, scarabs if you are brave/crazy or rubrics if you are a romantic), buff it to the ears, let it kill. That's all armies with Rubrics are or have. You can't play a shooty army, because your basic guy costs 20 pts and -in the codex- you need 10 to get a cannon. Also all the witchfire spells are pretty weak and expensive (no idea why all kinds of psychic dakka need to do MW - what's wrong with good old str 4-5 hits?) So shooting is out.Or at least consistent, steady shooting is out. Alpha bursts of 20 rubrics with prescience and votlw will kill stuff, but that still takes us to strat #1. Hth is out for Rubrics. Sure the TS Daemon Princes kick ass and are way better than all the other DP's out there (weirdly enough for the same cost). But beside that what? Maulerfiends? Defilers? Yeah I didn't think so. You can play (and possibly also win) with tzaangors, but then you go back to the "Codex: Thousand Sons vs Codex: Tzaangors" debate.

The psychic power of TS in this edition really kills their flexibility rather than enhance it. With the way buffs and stratagems work, and with how weak wytchfires are, you really want to have one big deathstar unit rather than MSU and terrain control. If we had the ability to get a soulreaper per 5 models, then there would be a really good incentive to use your rubrics as MSU objective holders OR use them in a phat unit with deep strike stratagem. Right now, there's only one option.

1) Tide of Traitors doesn't cost points, neither does Walking Dead, only the imperium strategem that reinforces lost infantry costs points

2) Shooting is not out and it's one of the better Artillery armies out there, Rhino 74 points and 1 CP - you get 8 S4 AP -2 shot's when close enough, that's a hella good deal, same with dual fist/combi Helbrutes

3) Their psychic powers kills flexibility? Cannot agree

I've found Witchfires to actually be a really useful tool in the box for sons. We now have access to five spells that bypass character restrictions to cause mortal wounds (doombolt, gift of chaos, firestorm, 3-dice looking for 4s one, and bolt of change if you have tzeentchy daemon boys).

In one of my recent games my opponent did the latest Bullgryn 2++ shenanigan thing where you take the custodes vexilla character and an astropath and bunch the Bullgryns around him with Barrier to give them a 2++. Turn 1, Ahriman smacked him with Doombolt, and the whole blob was stuck moving 3" for the turn because they have to stay within 9" of the vexilla guy. Turn 2, denied the astropath's power and dropped Firestorm and Doombolt on him and the vexilla was dead, and it was pretty easy to wipe the bullgryns with high AP firepower after that.

Sure, you won't table anyone with the mortal wounds powers, but they can be really good at knocking a character out when you want him dead.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
We DO have some great options. Ahriman on disc is practically a cheat for his points. Prime suspect for nerfing down the road.
Ahriman is only a steal when compared to Exalteds on Discs. He's a good psyker, but 166 pts is quite alot for a T4 model with a 4++.

Our DP's are point to point better than the CSM DP's for the exact same points. And not better by little. +1 to invul saves, +1 power known, access to 2 more lores. Crazy gak.
Our DP's are good for sure. Are they too good though? I'd say the CSM-prince needs a buff more than the TS-prince needs a nerf.

Our plain sorcerer is the same as the CSM sorcerer, only he gets 1 more lore to choose spells from and also gets 5++ for free apparently. (Still not a good choice, which says much about the CSM one).
Same as above. The TS-sorcerer isn't amazing, it's the CSM-sorcerer who is garbage.

I would dare say that -for their price- Scarabs are better than most other terminators out there. Or at least more synergistic with the list. Still terminators are not viable with all the plasma spam around, but within the terminator family, I think scarabs go close to the top. Still, All is dust on the scarabs makes practically zero sense though.
Scarabs are pretty good as far as Terminators go, I agree. As all Terminators go however, they are slightly overpriced. As for All is Dust, what is it that doesn't make sense? Are we talking fluff or game-mechanics here? There are plenty of D1 weaponry with AP out there where All is Dust helps them keep their 2+ save.

Even though I hate them, tzaangors are strong for their points. The enlightened on paper look dirt cheap for what they do. Haven't seen them on the table though.
I've used Enlightened with bows and I find that they thread that fine line of being "good without being too good". They're fast and have good damage output, but they fold like wet paper if targeted by anti-infantry weaponry.

Shooting is not out and it's one of the better Artillery armies out there, Rhino 74 points and 1 CP - you get 8 S4 AP -2 shot's when close enough, that's a hella good deal, same with dual fist/combi Helbrutes

Stratagem only affects one weapon, not the whole vehicle. 1 CP to upgrade the ap on one combi bolter is a really bad deal. There is really not much use for that stratagem unfortunately. Maybe on a hellbrute? but honestly a disappointment. Not even sure it covers havoc launchers (it would at least be an ok purchase then). Maybe it does, don't have the book with me right now.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Shooting is not out and it's one of the better Artillery armies out there, Rhino 74 points and 1 CP - you get 8 S4 AP -2 shot's when close enough, that's a hella good deal, same with dual fist/combi Helbrutes

Stratagem only affects one weapon, not the whole vehicle. 1 CP to upgrade the ap on one combi bolter is a really bad deal. There is really not much use for that stratagem unfortunately. Maybe on a hellbrute? but honestly a disappointment. Not even sure it covers havoc launchers (it would at least be an ok purchase then). Maybe it does, don't have the book with me right now.

It does not. Only combi-bolters, heavy bolters and twin heavy bolters. I agree that the stratagem is marginal.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The most strategically diverse army is Tyranids. Thousand Sons are not strategically diverse, Thousand Sons have exactly one strategy (buff the goats until you've double their points cost). I'm not convinced that tzaangors will replace bloodletters or berzerkers as a key assault unit in Chaos lists because they require so much support to function; I suspect the biggest impact the codex will have on the competitive scene is the introduction of Ahriman and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch to otherwise non-Thousand Sons lists.

I'm so sorry for reviving these posts in general.

There are plenty of effective lists both imagined and tested that have been discussed in the tactics forum. If you want to plug your ears and pretend it's goats all the way down then great, I guess?

pismakron wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Shooting is not out and it's one of the better Artillery armies out there, Rhino 74 points and 1 CP - you get 8 S4 AP -2 shot's when close enough, that's a hella good deal, same with dual fist/combi Helbrutes

Stratagem only affects one weapon, not the whole vehicle. 1 CP to upgrade the ap on one combi bolter is a really bad deal. There is really not much use for that stratagem unfortunately. Maybe on a hellbrute? but honestly a disappointment. Not even sure it covers havoc launchers (it would at least be an ok purchase then). Maybe it does, don't have the book with me right now.

It does not. Only combi-bolters, heavy bolters and twin heavy bolters. I agree that the stratagem is marginal.

Where can we get a twin heavy bolter in TS? Land raider comes to mind. Can the hellbrute pick a twin heavy bolter? (only way to make decent use of the stratagem). I would so much rather have a twin heavy bolter than a reaper autocannon on the defiler by the way.