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Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Massachusetts

 john27 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up


He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra


No, he was on Prospero with Russ.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

So, is this idea that Horus tricked Russ just a fan theory? Or is that actually stated somewhere?
   
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Terminator with Assault Cannon





Florida

 Orblivion wrote:
The series as a whole has completely ruined the Heresy for me. I feel like even the few books that were good/great weren't worth the damage done to the overall story.

This idea of the Emperor intending for the Heresy to happen just sounds like bad damage control to me. GW realizes that they've written him to be a complete moron, so now they're just throwing out a "or is he?" with a sly wink hoping that it will somehow fix what they've done.


Ugh... yeah some things are really looking bad now. The Emperor has made some horrid mistakes that I might expect out of a junior officer or ROTC cadet that hasn't quite grasped basic leadership principles.

I really hope BL and GW don't go down this route with the Big E. 'But it was planned all along!' That would be so dumb.

Obviously Magnus screwed everything up. The Emperor literally doesn't know what to do after the webway is lost. (Which that is understandable. His master plan destroyed and his backup plan is rebelling)

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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Orblivion wrote:
 john27 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up


He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra


No, he was on Prospero with Russ.


He and a large custodes contingent deployed to the campaign, so many so there Terran Jail was under manned, hence Outcast Dead.

Custodes and sisters deployed as part of space wolves strike force. Valadors defenitely was there because he took on 30 thousand son elite sword masters and won alone.

They definitely deployed a sizeable force to Prospero, including wardens of under vaults and other sub groups.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

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 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.


They didn\t make in time for Terra but that's because Horus sensed soon to arrive combined fleet of DA and Wolves thus leading to the all-or-nothing gambit where he hid arrival of reinforcements from Emperor and tempted him to charge.

Well that's the current fluff. Interesting to see if BL changes it. Siege will apparently not go quite as it's generally thought so it's up for air yet. But that's the current fluff.

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 jhe90 wrote:
 Orblivion wrote:
 john27 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up


He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra


No, he was on Prospero with Russ.


He and a large custodes contingent deployed to the campaign, so many so there Terran Jail was under manned, hence Outcast Dead.

Custodes and sisters deployed as part of space wolves strike force. Valadors defenitely was there because he took on 30 thousand son elite sword masters and won alone.

They definitely deployed a sizeable force to Prospero, including wardens of under vaults and other sub groups.


I think your mean thirty, not thirty thousands
   
Made in gb
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

Engrenages wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
 Orblivion wrote:
 john27 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up


He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra


No, he was on Prospero with Russ.


He and a large custodes contingent deployed to the campaign, so many so there Terran Jail was under manned, hence Outcast Dead.

Custodes and sisters deployed as part of space wolves strike force. Valadors defenitely was there because he took on 30 thousand son elite sword masters and won alone.

They definitely deployed a sizeable force to Prospero, including wardens of under vaults and other sub groups.


I think your mean thirty, not thirty thousands


Yeah.. 30, thousand son, sword masters lol.

He good, he not quite that good!
   
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Norwalk, Connecticut

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
So, is this idea that Horus tricked Russ just a fan theory? Or is that actually stated somewhere?


No, it is actually in the novel “Burning of Prospero”. I don’t remember the exact specifics of the passage, but that’s the novel you’re looking for.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

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Some dusty place in Texas

 timetowaste85 wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
So, is this idea that Horus tricked Russ just a fan theory? Or is that actually stated somewhere?


No, it is actually in the novel “Burning of Prospero”. I don’t remember the exact specifics of the passage, but that’s the novel you’re looking for.


I think the novel you're thinking of is "Prospero Burns"

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Lake County, Illinois

 timetowaste85 wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
So, is this idea that Horus tricked Russ just a fan theory? Or is that actually stated somewhere?


No, it is actually in the novel “Burning of Prospero”. I don’t remember the exact specifics of the passage, but that’s the novel you’re looking for.


I've read Prospero Burns, and I don't remember that being in it.
   
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So, a fan theory, then? In that case, it seems likely that the Space Wolves weren't punished because they did what they were supposed to do. Well, except that they failed to kill Magnus or wipe out the Thousand Sons.

I guess you might expect Russ to get punished for such abject failure, but at that point the war effort couldn't really spare him.
   
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No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.

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Of course they got "punished".


They all got a smack on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and a "BAD DOG!" and made to sleep outside with the scratching and the fleas and the chewing.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
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 Albino Squirrel wrote:
So, a fan theory, then? In that case, it seems likely that the Space Wolves weren't punished because they did what they were supposed to do. Well, except that they failed to kill Magnus or wipe out the Thousand Sons.

I guess you might expect Russ to get punished for such abject failure, but at that point the war effort couldn't really spare him.


It's not a fan theory it's been confirmed in... um, somewhere ? I know it's been mentioned a couple of times in a couple different stories, but I can't remember right now and 90% of my HH books are physical copies, so I don't have the time to scan through them currently. I'll vaguely look at my shelf and see if anything comes to me. I know the FW black book VII Inferno strongly hints at the events, with Leman Russ receiving a message from Horus at Beta-Garmon before declaring he was to slay Magnus and not bring him back, and even getting a sizable support group from the SoH,, who are suspiciously a bit too well equipped just for escort duty .
   
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Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.




 
   
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 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.


thats proably because inferno was written after. frankly it's a silly idea, doesn't make much sense for the SoH to be diredtly involved as it means Magnus is going to know Horus was involved somehow

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Lake County, Illinois

pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.


It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.


Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/23 15:30:52


 
   
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 Albino Squirrel wrote:
pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.


It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.


Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

Yes it does. I'm not really sure how you can deny that...

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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Lake County, Illinois

pm713 wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.


It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.


Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

Yes it does. I'm not really sure how you can deny that...


Because I read the book, and it doesn't say anything about that in the book.
   
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The Space Wolves got pissed when they found out what the Sons of Horus were doing to the natives on Prospero. Apparently the SoH were rounding people up and either kidnapping them en masse or slaughtering them.

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JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
= Epic First Post.
 
   
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 Albino Squirrel wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.


It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.


Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

Yes it does. I'm not really sure how you can deny that...


Because I read the book, and it doesn't say anything about that in the book.

Read it again. I read it and towards the end it's very clear about the 1k Sons and Wolves being manipulated into fight each other.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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pm713 wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.


It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.


Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

Yes it does. I'm not really sure how you can deny that...


Because I read the book, and it doesn't say anything about that in the book.

Read it again. I read it and towards the end it's very clear about the 1k Sons and Wolves being manipulated into fight each other.


As far as I remember the only manipulation of them into fighting each other was done by the Influence of Daemons on Hawser, which was wrongly interpreted by the Wolves as Hawser being a plant of Magnus' to spy on the Legion. And that Russ was too foolish to try multiple ways of contacting Magnus into order to plead for him to surrender.
   
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Lake County, Illinois

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.


It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.


Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

Yes it does. I'm not really sure how you can deny that...


Because I read the book, and it doesn't say anything about that in the book.

Read it again. I read it and towards the end it's very clear about the 1k Sons and Wolves being manipulated into fight each other.


As far as I remember the only manipulation of them into fighting each other was done by the Influence of Daemons on Hawser, which was wrongly interpreted by the Wolves as Hawser being a plant of Magnus' to spy on the Legion. And that Russ was too foolish to try multiple ways of contacting Magnus into order to plead for him to surrender.


Yes, that's how I remember it, too. In fact, it completely contradicts the idea that Russ was ordered by Horus to kill Magnus and wipe out the Thosuand Sons. Because Russ is hoping that once Magnus finds out he is coming ( through, what Russ thought was his spy), he would surrender peacefully.

So yeah, if it is only Prospero Burns where this idea supposedly comes from, then it is definitely just a fan theory. But it sounds like it was mentioned in a couple of recent codexes. So maybe it has become an actual thing now.
   
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 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Yes, that's how I remember it, too. In fact, it completely contradicts the idea that Russ was ordered by Horus to kill Magnus and wipe out the Thosuand Sons. Because Russ is hoping that once Magnus finds out he is coming ( through, what Russ thought was his spy), he would surrender peacefully.

So yeah, if it is only Prospero Burns where this idea supposedly comes from, then it is definitely just a fan theory. But it sounds like it was mentioned in a couple of recent codexes. So maybe it has become an actual thing now.


It was written up that way before the Horus Heresy novel series was even started actually, in the old HH fluff. IIRC the novel series changed it to be more of a sneaky suggestion by Horus, rather than him actually changing the order like it used to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/23 19:52:04


 
   
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You have to commit a crime to be punished for one.

Unless it's Jim Crow era.
   
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You have to commit a crime to be punished for one.

Unless it's Jim Crow era.


Or questioned by a inquisitor... Because you are guilty of somthing...

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I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

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 jhe90 wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
You have to commit a crime to be punished for one.

Unless it's Jim Crow era.


Or questioned by a inquisitor... Because you are guilty of somthing...

If you didn't commit a crime you were guilty of time wasting.

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Why would the Space Wolves be punished for doing their duty? It was their task to bring Magnus to Terra for judgement. The fault lies with Magnus for not surrendering and becoming buddies with Chaos instead.
Destroying traitors is a good thing, so the Space Wolves would have been commended rather than punished.

Magnus could have avoided all of the misery for Prospero and the Thousand Sons if he had simply informed them of what had happened and told them not to resist. He knew Russ and Valdor were coming to get him. He could have contacted them at any time to surrender and go with them peacefully. He never did and thus brought ruin on his people. Really, Magnus is a huge selfish douchebag, and the poor Thousand Sons and people of Prospero paid the price for his stubborn pride and hubris.

As to why Valdor didn't do anything to stop Russ? Valdor hated Magnus for destroying the Webway project and wanted to see him brought to justice. The fact that the Thousand Sons reacted with hostility to this completely justified censure must have sealed their fate in his eyes. I don't think he had much interest in stopping the destruction of Prospero and the Thousand Sons therefore.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/24 00:49:37


Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
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 Orblivion wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Yes, that's how I remember it, too. In fact, it completely contradicts the idea that Russ was ordered by Horus to kill Magnus and wipe out the Thosuand Sons. Because Russ is hoping that once Magnus finds out he is coming ( through, what Russ thought was his spy), he would surrender peacefully.

So yeah, if it is only Prospero Burns where this idea supposedly comes from, then it is definitely just a fan theory. But it sounds like it was mentioned in a couple of recent codexes. So maybe it has become an actual thing now.


It was written up that way before the Horus Heresy novel series was even started actually, in the old HH fluff. IIRC the novel series changed it to be more of a sneaky suggestion by Horus, rather than him actually changing the order like it used to be.


Interesting. There is no mention of it in the 2nd edition Chaos codex, which states explicitly that Russ was under orders from the emperor to devastate the Thousand Sons. Do you have any idea where this idea of interference from Horus originates?
   
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 Swiftblade wrote:
Yeah maybe it's cause I'm a Tsons fan, but it's just more fuel for the flames for me to not like the Wolves. They make this huge mistake and are duped into directly disobeying orders, and burn a loyal world to the ground and shatter a loyal legion.

Loyal legions weren't 100% possessed by daemons. The Thousand Sons were.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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