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I know this is unpopular opinion but I think Magnus is top 5 most powerful primarchs

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Constantin Valdor was sparring with a pre chaos corrupted Hours, and and even though Hours won, the he said "It was the toughest fight of my life"

I highlighted the word sparring as that's an important distinction here. Spars tend to be orignized bouts with certain rules. one of them useally being to first blood or a score of points. (when I did Karate as a kid it was always to 3 points for example) in that case it all comes down to weapons skill, which does diminish one of the biiiig advantages a primarch has over a custodes. a custodes for example is T5 S5, whereas Gulliman is T6 S6, making him both stronger and tougher then a custodes. thing is, toughness matters very little in a spar because a hit is a hit. likewise strength isn't that important. so two of the big advantages a primarch would have "in the field" over a custodes they'd not have in a spar situation. so yeah I could see Constain Valdor winning a spar even if he was outclassed in a "real life situation"

not ingame, but how about the swarmlord?

He floored the old super smurf. I do not think he would have stood a chance vs Guliman, at least then. But in theory Swarm Lord should have learned some new tricks in the 100 year jump. I was actually hoping they would have beefed him up for 8th edition.

I can never decide of the swarmlord is a 'lead from the front' kind of warlord. He is not afraid of getting his hands dirty. But when it came to fighting the avatar of khain, he just threw a handfull of carnifexes at the avatar and called it a day.

An Avatar of Khaine should be able to if it wasn't made to be the eternally jobbing buttmonkey of the 40k universe.

Phoenix Lords should be comparable in terms of skill and fighting ability, but would be more limited by their generally unmodified Eldar physiology, as opposed to the artificially developed roidbeast demigod frames of the Primarchs. Thankfully for the Phoenix Lords, however, they never die. Only the actors that play them.

Greater daemons also tend to be on similar levels of raw power, although that would likely vary greatly based on the individual daemon and the powers used to bind them to realspace.

C'tan shards are probably pretty big deals, but Necron fluff hasn't counted since third edition.

Abbadon can beat Guilliman if he swings first... Abbadon has a ridiculous number of attacks hitting on 2+ and rerolling failed hits... if enough get through Roboute’s 3++ it can happen. Of course there’s the chance he will get back up again but at least he can only do that once at best.

ballzonya wrote:
I know this is unpopular opinion but I think Magnus is top 5 most powerful primarchs

Depends on how you define "most powerful".

Powerful in terms of psychic prowess and raw strength? Absolutely.

Powerful in terms of combat prowess/skill? I'm not so sure. I'd expect Angron and Fulgrim to kick his ass in close quarters.

With that said, Daemon Primarchs > Primarchs, and he's one of the 6 current Daemon Primarchs, so he's probably in the top 5.

I'm curious to why people keep saying lorgar was the weakest primarchs in close combat? Most reluctant sure, but having read his books and seen him fling large stone blocks around killing warhounds and tanks etc.... well, that doesn't seem weak, unless we are saying no psy powers?

ballzonya wrote:
SO what 40k character in the fluff can go toe to toe with the Primarchs or at least come close to it.

An Eldar Avatar is pretty much an auto-win for the Eldar - they're unique Greater Daemons of not-Khorne, but way tougher due to the molten body.

 Grimgold wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
so not even abbadon? hes a beast

Abaddon killed the clone of horus, and that was before he was the mortal champion of the ruinous powers. So if any Space marine could do it, it's probably him.

Question is though how close to Horus that clone was. Primarch aren't just gene-engineered marvels but had power of chaos inserted to them. Just cloning genes and building body wouldn't be enough to recreate one. You would need chaos gods to provide the warp boost they provided originally. That's why it requires something pretty special to deal with one.


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BrianDavion wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Constantin Valdor was sparring with a pre chaos corrupted Hours, and and even though Hours won, the he said "It was the toughest fight of my life"

I highlighted the word sparring as that's an important distinction here. Spars tend to be orignized bouts with certain rules. one of them useally being to first blood or a score of points. (when I did Karate as a kid it was always to 3 points for example) in that case it all comes down to weapons skill, which does diminish one of the biiiig advantages a primarch has over a custodes. a custodes for example is T5 S5, whereas Gulliman is T6 S6, making him both stronger and tougher then a custodes. thing is, toughness matters very little in a spar because a hit is a hit. likewise strength isn't that important. so two of the big advantages a primarch would have "in the field" over a custodes they'd not have in a spar situation. so yeah I could see Constain Valdor winning a spar even if he was outclassed in a "real life situation"

Mind you marine sparring is "bit" different than our karate classes. In HH books it's noted they are lot more serious with real threat of death in them.

 Grimgold wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
so not even abbadon? hes a beast

Abaddon killed the clone of horus, and that was before he was the mortal champion of the ruinous powers. So if any Space marine could do it, it's probably him.

I've only read a small excerpt of "The Talon of Horus", the book in which this 'fight' occurs, and it doesn't seem to be a battle per se.
Clone horus approaches Abaddon, seemingly unarmoured, and gets sucker punched through the chest with the eponymous talon while attempting to reconnect with his lost 'son'. Followed up with a few bolt shells to his chest and neck from the attached bolt weapon.

Current setting Abaddon vs 30k Horus would be a no contest win for Horus, probably any primarch to be honest.

 Elbows wrote:
In the fluff? An Avatar of Khaine would be up there, but...definitely never in game-terms.

Yncarne might have a better chance.

ballzonya wrote:
SO what 40k character in the fluff can go toe to toe with the Primarchs or at least come close to it. I have a felling abbadon can kill at least one of them maybe in combat, possibly logar.

I'm assuming toe to toe doesn't mean completely mano-a-mano unprepared- ie if Stark gets to wear his armour, Wayne gets at least a few hours of brooding in front of the computer (preptime)

(Otherwise nude gulliman vs anything with a ranged attack)

Marbo has already been stated and I would submit there's a number of Tanith 1st(and only) who would have a good chance.

in a similar vein, Ahriman has enslaved greater daemons- a daemon primarch shouldn't be that much harder. Cain at a stretch- but he'd need Amberly to requisition a necron-pokeball or some other gimmick.

by extension- any inquisitor with access to the right tools- there are relic weapons like entropic accellerators etc that could kill a primarch in one shot. Enough combat drugs/psychic powers and you'd be able to keep up with a primarch's super-human speed and you could land a hit with some improbable dark age/xenos/daemon weapon and just end it.

Weaponising common stasis tech is another ploy- that either requires preptime or specialised equipment. Get the primarch to stand on the carbon freezer/stasis projector and turn it on. Fire his now time frozen body into a star on an unguided missile.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Sly Marbo, obviously. Why is this even a thread?

2nded, Sly Marbo, case closed.

 Niiai wrote:
not ingame, but how about the swarmlord?

He floored the old super smurf. I do not think he would have stood a chance vs Guliman, at least then. But in theory Swarm Lord should have learned some new tricks in the 100 year jump. I was actually hoping they would have beefed him up for 8th edition.

I can never decide of the swarmlord is a 'lead from the front' kind of warlord. He is not afraid of getting his hands dirty. But when it came to fighting the avatar of khain, he just threw a handfull of carnifexes at the avatar and called it a day.

The Swarmlord isn't really either. It's a "what's the best way to win" warlord. If duelling the enemy Captain will do more damage it'll duel but if it's better to send a stampede of Carnifexes then that's what will happen.


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 Formosa wrote:
I'm curious to why people keep saying lorgar was the weakest primarchs in close combat? Most reluctant sure, but having read his books and seen him fling large stone blocks around killing warhounds and tanks etc.... well, that doesn't seem weak, unless we are saying no psy powers?

None of those things sound like stuff only Lorgar can do. What I know of Lorgar is that he is the weakest Primarch. He can still do a lot of damage because he's a Primarch but he's the weakest one.

Lorgar, after his Ascendancy to Daemonhood, apparently got a lot stronger afterwards due to his connection with it. At least that's the vibe I get from reading stuff.

 Niiai wrote:
not ingame, but how about the swarmlord?

He floored the old super smurf. I do not think he would have stood a chance vs Guliman, at least then. But in theory Swarm Lord should have learned some new tricks in the 100 year jump. I was actually hoping they would have beefed him up for 8th edition.

I can never decide of the swarmlord is a 'lead from the front' kind of warlord. He is not afraid of getting his hands dirty. But when it came to fighting the avatar of khain, he just threw a handfull of carnifexes at the avatar and called it a day.

Nah, Dante defeats the Swarmlord 1v1 in Devastation of Baal. He doesn't stand a chance against a primarch.

Table wrote:
There is a big difference between demon primarchs and loyalist primarchs. The demon ones are more powerful in combat while the loyalist ones (if girly man) is an indication will most likely be better at buffing.

While Abby did kill a clone of horus, keep in mind that it was not a chaos infused clone (demon primarch). I dont think he could even stand up to Magnus in close combat (the weakest of the demon primarchs in close combat aside from Lorgar) let alone survive Magnus's fluff smite bombs.

I have not read any recent lore so I cannot speak to Mortys fluff but in WoM they have Magnus destroying Storm Ravens in one smite and wiping out whole squads with one attack.

Unless Wrath of Magnus was OTT then I can safely say a demon primarch can beat even greater demons easily. Which would make sense fluff wise since they are their gods semi mortal champions.

...and yet magnus the demon prince was made to kneel before Abaddon. Understand Abaddon is a unique story in all of 40k in that he is a self made man. He isn't the warmaster because daddy had a chemistry set and made him a 14 foot tall demigod, he is the warmaster because he won the war of the nine legions, beating the best of the traitor legions and the remaining primarchs. He isn't the mortal agent of chaos undivided because they picked him out of a hat, he earned every god's favor and he did so without becoming their slave. He is also the one russ prophesied to tear the emperor off of his golden throne and cast him down. As I said if any space marine can do it, it's Abaddon.

Toe to Toe.... hmmm

Bloodthirster Ka'Bahnda was victorious first time against Sanguinius so Ann'grath or Skarbrand should be able to

Avatar of Khaine SHOULD be able to, but Lorgar or Fulgrim killed one in a duel.

Any other Primarch should be able to go toe to toe with a Primarch. Unless your name is:
Ferrus Manus (Fulgrim)
Magnus (Russ)
Alpharius (Gulliman)


Others who should be able to take on a Primarch:

Abaddon (with all Marks of Chaos and Drachnyen)
Kaldor Draigo (overcame Mortarion and carved "Kaldo waz ere" on his heart)
Anyone with a Murder Sword..

 =Angel= wrote:
(Otherwise nude gulliman vs anything with a ranged attack)

Which incidentally he has survived. Outnumbered.

Marbo has already been stated and I would submit there's a number of Tanith 1st(and only) who would have a good chance.

IG trooper? Vs primarch? Lol. We are talking about beings that can go man to man vs TITAN. Good luck Marbo fighting 1 vs 1 vs titan and come out on top.


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 Corennus wrote:

Any other Primarch should be able to go toe to toe with a Primarch. Unless your name is:
Ferrus Manus (Fulgrim)
Magnus (Russ)
Alpharius (Gulliman)

Umm primarch are generally recognized as pretty much only ones who CAN kill primarch down. Who wins against whom isn't as clear cut. Some might have better shot but differences are so small that nobody is totally outclassed by others. Even weakest of primarch CAN win and kill strongest primarch(fluffwise speaking. Gamewise it's more clear cut who can realistically kill whom but game stats are poor representations anyway)

 Grimgold wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
so not even abbadon? hes a beast

Abaddon killed the clone of horus, and that was before he was the mortal champion of the ruinous powers. So if any Space marine could do it, it's probably him.

I think this demonstrates plot armor. Obviously, the clone wasn't at Horus' peak level of skill/equipment/chaos infusion, but it does show that a suitably experienced veteran chapter master type space marines could kill 'a' primarch, but not one of 'the' primarchs. The 18/19/20/21 'named' primarchs are all too important to be just beaten off in most encounters.

If a slew of new no-name primarchs were created, I'm sure a bunch of them would get whupped by farseer / phoenix lord / named dreadnought type characters. The originals are too important (before considering their experience, training and equipment is en pointe).

nareik wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
so not even abbadon? hes a beast

Abaddon killed the clone of horus, and that was before he was the mortal champion of the ruinous powers. So if any Space marine could do it, it's probably him.

I think this demonstrates plot armor. Obviously, the clone wasn't at Horus' peak level of skill/equipment/chaos infusion, but it does show that a suitably experienced veteran chapter master type space marines could kill 'a' primarch, but not one of 'the' primarchs. The 18/19/20/21 'named' primarchs are all too important to be just beaten off in most encounters.

If a slew of new no-name primarchs were created, I'm sure a bunch of them would get whupped by farseer / phoenix lord / named dreadnought type characters. The originals are too important (before considering their experience, training and equipment is en pointe).

And again was the clone given same chaos god provided boost all primarch were given when they were originally created? If not then the clone Horus was just pale comparison.

tneva82 wrote:
IG trooper? Vs primarch? Lol. We are talking about beings that can go man to man vs TITAN. Good luck Marbo fighting 1 vs 1 vs titan and come out on top.

You're right, this is not a fair fight. Marbo should have to fight against an entire titan legion plus supporting forces, just to make things interesting.

(Yes, this is a thread about primarchs, but even all 20 primarchs vs. Marbo is a pretty dull question. Marbo won't even run out of pistol ammunition and demolition charges before they're all dead.)

tneva82 wrote:
IG trooper? Vs primarch? Lol. We are talking about beings that can go man to man vs TITAN. Good luck Marbo fighting 1 vs 1 vs titan and come out on top.

If Marbo can open the lid, I think he wins the pilot, which stops the titan. Just sayin'

 Peregrine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
IG trooper? Vs primarch? Lol. We are talking about beings that can go man to man vs TITAN. Good luck Marbo fighting 1 vs 1 vs titan and come out on top.

You're right, this is not a fair fight. Marbo should have to fight against an entire titan legion plus supporting forces, just to make things interesting.

(Yes, this is a thread about primarchs, but even all 20 primarchs vs. Marbo is a pretty dull question. Marbo won't even run out of pistol ammunition and demolition charges before they're all dead.)

I guess you didn't even bother to read what the thread is about:

SO what 40k character in the fluff can go toe to toe with the Primarchs or at least come close to it. I have a felling abbadon can kill at least one of them maybe in combat, possibly logar.

We are talking about fluff wise rather than game rules which are poor pale comparison for sake of being able to sell more models(GW would have trouble selling tons of space marines when 5 tacticals would be army on their own right!).

But even game wise. Malbro comes in, throws demolition charge. Primarch not fazed much. Likely kills. Even if not Malbro gets back into shadows, comes, repeat. That go back into shadows is once per game ability so is out in the open for Primarch to tear him open. And titan will simply vaporize him in one round of shooting anyway. We aren't talking about somebody with 2++ rerollable with bazillion wounds. It's still just one guy.

Horus would have field day. Whatever he did in 7th ed he comes in, drops demo charge. Horus laughs with his 3++. Even if gets through 1 through. Boo hoo. Then drops in S10 AP2 pie plate and storm bolter. Demo one use only. Good luck killing him.

And doubtful 8th ed helps much especially since the go back to shadows is once per game ability...You struggle to kill any primarch with that and then you are screwed. And of course titan will have LOS pretty much anywhere being so frigging tall and then once you have set up blast away. For example 2d3 shots hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+ and 2d6 damage will pretty much vaporize him in one go. If not? Well even getting hit twice by demo's(max in game) isn't scary for somebody with dozens and dozens of wounds.

So you failed both on fluff side(where primarch are noted as only ones capable of actually killing one. Remember they aren't just genetically enchanced super super warriors but chaos boosted things. They are basically daemon princes ALREADY when they were created powered up by warp) and on game rules wise.

tneva82 wrote:
We are talking about fluff wise rather than game rules which are poor pale comparison for sake of being able to sell more models

I know, and so am I. In game rules the 20 primarchs will probably beat Marbo. In the fluff Marbo will annihilate them effortlessly. The only question is whether Marbo kills them up close and personal with his pistol and knife, or just blows them up from a distance.

The Marbo baiting is 10/10, GG Peregrine.

Gulliman was almost killed by 5 marines with bolters, without his armour.

It's outright stated that had he not twigged they had their weapons loaded, safeties off and helmets on, then dived for cover, he would be dead.

Marbo is objectively more dangerous than 5 alphalegionnaires in the fluff. You'd find gulliman stranded in a jungle when his thunder hawk crashed due to mechanical errors, no survivors except the big guy.

Gulliman would be low on ammunition after fighting several carnosaurs and terradon flocks when the ground suddenly gives way beneath him. Lashing out with his limbs he manages to brace himself against the walls of a pit trap, arresting his fall to diamond hard teeth and claws arrayed below.

Unable to move, he feels something drop into his back and a blade moves like lightning across his throat. His nerves are suddenly aflame as his physiology furiously fights what must surely be the second most deadly venom he has ever encountered.

Sweating and dizzy he barely registers that the weight on his back has lifted, but as his head clears he hears the spark of severed cables and knows by the slack he feels that his armour is now dead weight.

Curiously, his beacon still functions. He can sense its radio pulse with his superhuman senses. It is only a matter of time before Ultramarines will find him...

Marbo waits high above in a gnarled branch. The charges are set and the bait is ready.

Greater Daemons
Eldar Avatars (either kind)
C'tans
Daemon Princes
Phoenix Lords
Lelith Hesperax
Really Big Ork Warbosses
Really Nasty Tyranids

Other really skilled and well equipped Custodians, Space Marines, Eldar or maybe even Imperial Assassins might have a chance.

Inquisitors could not win a fair fight, but Inquisitors don't fight fair.


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Oh, and I'm sure Cawl can kill Guilliman. He would be an idiot to not have installed a kill switch to the Primarch's life support armour.

C'tan shard, maybe.. wouldn't bet on it. Fully assembled and powered up C'tan, a Primarch wouldn't stand a chance.

Since we're talking fluff here only the pinnacle character in the faction will be able to stand up to the nigh impenetrable plot armour that the Primarchs enjoy.

I'm not going to do adversaries that could go "toe to toe" with a Primarch as that is incredibly subjective and would be entirely dependent on circumstances. Instead I'm going to do a list of those characters that might survive an encounter with one.

Another Primarch
Yarrick
Creed
Marbo
Ghazghkull
Abaddon
Ahriman
Eldrad
Vect
Kaldor Draigo
Dante
Samael
Celestine
Farsight

I might have forgotten some but that'll do for now.

There's also certain adversaries that are virtually certain to lose when fighting a Primarch, largely because they have some sort of resurrection plot. Things such as;

Broodlord
Any named Greater Daemon, particularly Skarbrand
Necron characters