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Regardless of what paroxysm says about priority, the stratagem disregards that. Which is what i said, you seem to have misread me.

Rules as written the stratagem works.

Ultimately this is a tournament organizer decision. I'm playing in an ITC event coming up, and i have already confirmed that you can indeed use the stratagem to interrupt even if the unit is suffering from paroxysm. I would be shocked if any T/O ruled in favor of paroxysm negating counter-offensive.

If GW chooses to publish an errata that establishes that paroxysm negates counter offensive, it will have wide reaching implications across similar abilities, but that's fine with me, because i play Tyranids.

 Marmatag wrote:
Regardless of what paroxysm says about priority, the stratagem disregards that. Which is what i said, you seem to have misread me.

Rules as written the stratagem works.

No, the stratagem does not disregard that. The stratagem says it can target a eligible unit. If the psychic power makes it so the unit is no longer eligible then it cannot be the target of the stratagem. The power specifically adds to the criteria for how it becomes eligible to fight. Everything else that can fight HAS to fight before it has the option to be able to fight.

Yea. He's right, the stratagem over-rights paroxism in RAW terms.

unless they bring out an FAQ stating otherwise, you cannot deny that this is what happens. No matter how much you think RAI is. RAW is absolute in what happens in this scenario

also, the stratagems only requirement is that one enemy unit who charged this turn attacked first, nowhere does it state the unit it effects need to go next or cannot be targeted if it cant go normally, that is only the results

Eligibility is defined as being within 1", paroxysm doesn't change that. Until eligibility is expanded or redefined it works.

mchammadad wrote:Yea. He's right, the stratagem over-rights paroxism in RAW terms.

unless they bring out an FAQ stating otherwise, you cannot deny that this is what happens. No matter how much you think RAI is. RAW is absolute in what happens in this scenario

also, the stratagems only requirement is that one enemy unit who charged this turn attacked first, nowhere does it state the unit it effects need to go next or cannot be targeted if it cant go normally, that is only the results

The stratagem requires that you target a eligible unit. You could not target a unit 10" away from a enemy unit with the stratagem.

Marmatag wrote:Eligibility is defined as being within 1", paroxysm doesn't change that. Until eligibility is expanded or redefined it works.

Base eligibility you are correct. Now go read Paroxysm. It doesn't say "This unit must be selected to fight last" It says this unit "Cannot fight until". Those 3 words charge it's eligibility. It is incapable of being selected to fight.

That doesn't matter. It's still technically eligible. And therefore can be targeted by the stratagem.

And the stratagem once applied to a unit disregards any ordering and stipulates that the unit fights immediately regardless of original priority.

 Lance845 wrote:
I cannot provide evidence for a negative. Evidence for a negative does not exist.

Actually there are cases where you can provide evidence for a negative. In 40K cases, this would be a case revoking permission already granted. In this case, the unit has been deemed an eligible unit as per the basic rules. If you can not show that this eligibility as defined in the rules has been revoked, then you have no argument.

 Lance845 wrote:
I Nothing says that "units that did not charge cannot fight until" Which is why they CAN be targeted with the stratagem. Paroxysm specifically says the "unit CANNOT fight" which is why it can't.

Counter offensive is a stratagem that says to choose an eligible unit. According to the basic rules a unit within 1" of an enemy is an eligible unit.

There is a difference between "cannot fight" and "cannot fight unti...". The latter means the unit still fights, which means the definition in the main rulebook for it being an eligible unnit still applies.

 Marmatag wrote:
That doesn't matter. It's still technically eligible. And therefore can be targeted by the stratagem.

And the stratagem once applied to a unit disregards any ordering and stipulates that the unit fights immediately regardless of original priority.

It DOES mater because paroxysm isn't changing ordering. It's changing eligibility criteria.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
That doesn't matter. It's still technically eligible. And therefore can be targeted by the stratagem.

And the stratagem once applied to a unit disregards any ordering and stipulates that the unit fights immediately regardless of original priority.

It DOES mater because paroxysm isn't changing ordering. It's changing eligibility criteria.

Rules citation with page number for it changing eligibility, please.

You could rewrite counter offensive to say:

Use this stratagem after a charging unit has fought. Select a unit under your control which is within 1" of an enemy unit, and has not yet fought in this phase. This unit fights immediately.

I am basically doing a replace of "eligible" with its definition.

Technically he is correct, eligibility in this scenario only requires you are within 1" (Hence in CC). Paroxysm changes the initiative order of the unit, but doesn't make it ineligible for the counter offense stratagem, because that it a different eligibility.

Counter offensive only cares if your not in CC, not if your hitting last

 doctortom wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I cannot provide evidence for a negative. Evidence for a negative does not exist.

Actually there are cases where you can provide evidence for a negative. In 40K cases, this would be a case revoking permission already granted. In this case, the unit has been deemed an eligible unit as per the basic rules. If you can not show that this eligibility as defined in the rules has been revoked, then you have no argument.

 Lance845 wrote:
I Nothing says that "units that did not charge cannot fight until" Which is why they CAN be targeted with the stratagem. Paroxysm specifically says the "unit CANNOT fight" which is why it can't.

Counter offensive is a stratagem that says to choose an eligible unit. According to the basic rules a unit within 1" of an enemy is an eligible unit.

There is a difference between "cannot fight" and "cannot fight unti...". The latter means the unit still fights, which means the definition in the main rulebook for it being an eligible unnit still applies.

Then the "Negative" in this case would be the "Cannot fight until" part of paroxysm and being the victim of paroxysm is the rule that revokes (modifies) the criteria for eligibility as defined in the rules.

 Lance845 wrote:

Then the "Negative" in this case would be the "Cannot fight until" part of paroxysm and being the victim of paroxysm is the rule that revokes (modifies) the criteria for eligibility as defined in the rules.

Paroxysm doesn't mention anything about whether or not the model is within 1" of an enemy, and has not yet fought. So it doesn't change eligibility.

So no one here has mentioned that the ability (Paroxysm) has more text than just one line. Specifically it states that if a unit has an ability that allows it to fight first then it will instead fight normally as if it didn't have that ability. There's more text than that, but thats the relevant part to this discussion.

To me that would indicate that Paroxysm and Counter-Offensive balance each other out and the unit would then fight normally. So it wouldn't get to interrupt chargers, but could be fought with in the normal fight rounds depending on the situation.

 Lance845 wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I cannot provide evidence for a negative. Evidence for a negative does not exist.

Actually there are cases where you can provide evidence for a negative. In 40K cases, this would be a case revoking permission already granted. In this case, the unit has been deemed an eligible unit as per the basic rules. If you can not show that this eligibility as defined in the rules has been revoked, then you have no argument.

 Lance845 wrote:
I Nothing says that "units that did not charge cannot fight until" Which is why they CAN be targeted with the stratagem. Paroxysm specifically says the "unit CANNOT fight" which is why it can't.

Counter offensive is a stratagem that says to choose an eligible unit. According to the basic rules a unit within 1" of an enemy is an eligible unit.

There is a difference between "cannot fight" and "cannot fight unti...". The latter means the unit still fights, which means the definition in the main rulebook for it being an eligible unnit still applies.

Then the "Negative" in this case would be the "Cannot fight until" part of paroxysm and being the victim of paroxysm is the rule that revokes (modifies) the criteria for eligibility as defined in the rules.

Sorry, wrong. "cannot fight until" does not say it modifies eligibility as defined in the book. It is still within 1" of an enemy unit, which is what is given in the rules. It is still an eligible unit as defined in the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

roman2440 wrote:
So no one here has mentioned that the ability (Paroxysm) has more text than just one line. Specifically it states that if a unit has an ability that allows it to fight first then it will instead fight normally as if it didn't have that ability. There's more text than that, but thats the relevant part to this discussion.

To me that would indicate that Paroxysm and Counter-Offensive balance each other out and the unit would then fight normally. So it wouldn't get to interrupt chargers, but could be fought with in the normal fight rounds depending on the situation.

Good catch. Of course they'll argue that counter offensive doesn't let you fight first. This does point out, however, that paroxysm can be overridden by other things.

The unit doesn't have any ability in this case.

The stratagem dictates when it fights, which is not a unit ability.

I would say that paroxysm changes order, not elegibility, because if that was the case, when a unit affected by paroxysm charges you would end up in a weird loop, because the rulebook says that other units fight after all charging units did so, and so you cant go last if other units didnt fight, but those units that didnt charge cant fight until all charging units did.

Yes, a unit afflicted with paroxysm would fight last even if it charged.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
I would say that paroxysm changes order, not elegibility, because if that was the case, when a unit affected by paroxysm charges you would end up in a weird loop, because the rulebook says that other units fight after all charging units did so, and so you cant go last if other units didnt fight, but those units that didnt charge cant fight until all charging units did.

Well, 1) not possible. I cant cast paroxysm on your turn. 2) if i could it wouldnt be a loop. The charging unit would not be eligible to fight until all units have fought so it fights last anyway.

Exactly, thats what im saying, it has to change order and not elegibility in order for the game not to get stuck in the loop; and so I would say that you can use the stratagem on a unit under paroxysm

 Lance845 wrote:

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
I would say that paroxysm changes order, not elegibility, because if that was the case, when a unit affected by paroxysm charges you would end up in a weird loop, because the rulebook says that other units fight after all charging units did so, and so you cant go last if other units didnt fight, but those units that didnt charge cant fight until all charging units did.

Well, 1) not possible. I cant cast paroxysm on your turn. 2) if i could it wouldnt be a loop. The charging unit would not be eligible to fight until all units have fought so it fights last anyway.

1) paroxysm lasts until your next psychic phase, so you cast it, ends your turn and then the enemy unit charges in his turn under its effect
2) even if it is not eligible under your understanding of it, the Rulebook doesnt say "until all eligible units that charged fought..." it says "after all charging units have fought", so eligible or not it charged and so the loop

*Pharoxysemn also includes rules for what to do if somebody has an abilaty that allows them to fight first. For those of you in the interpetation that the stratagem does override pharoxysemn, would that mean pharoxysmn recognises that the unit has an abilaty that allows it to fight furst, and then follows the instruction of paroxsysmn to adjust the fight to normal timing?

Well... the stratagem is more of a "fight now" rather than a "fight first", plus is a stratagem not an ability... so I would say that even if it was a solution to cancel one with the other, thats not what the rules say...
By my understanding what the rule wants yo say is "first fight with all the charging units except for this one, then fight with all non charging units except for this one, and finally fight with this unit"
And this is not what I want the rule to mean, this has to be what the rule means because if not then the loop that I described would prevent the game from going on.

Now with that meaning of paroxysm (or however its writen) its pretty clear that you can use the stratagem... Just my opinion obviously, but thats what GW awful writing leaves us

HOWEVER it could also mean "first fight with all the charging units except for this one, then fight with all non charging units except for this one, and finally fight with this unit. This unit cannot fight before any other unit does" (or something simillar)
With this meaning then yes, the stratagem wouldnt work, but its impossible to know what of the two meanings is, if it just affects the order or if it affects the order AND the eligibility...

Well, does not an FAQ come next month?

Just be sure to spam them with the question to be sure it is covered

Goobi2 wrote:
Just be sure to spam them with the question to be sure it is covered

Where?

Gonna say the GW customer service email and whatever Facebook (I'm not on it) thingy they use. Whatever they say in a reply doesn't really carry much weight, but they gotta hear the questions that get forwarded somewhere. That's how the FAQ's used to work anyway.

I see good arguments both ways and it is very hard to decide. Perhaps a poll with a vote?

I am leaning toward the stance that Counter Offensive Overrides the Stratagem.

*Note, before I finished writing this I was actually in the other camp with Paroxysm overriding Counter offensive. However, after some careful research and reading, I managed to convincingly change my own mind. This is primarily due to KEY WORDS. Read for more.

Paroxsym says...

"If the target unit has an ABILITY that allows it to fight first in the fight phase, it instead fights as if it didn't have this ability."

An ability as listed under the codex unit entry as already mentioned For deamonettes
Quicksilver swiftness:"This unit always FIGHTS FIRST in the Fight phase, even if it didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place."

Now...
Counter Offensive Says: "This stratagem is used right after an enemy unit that has charged has fought. Select one of your own eligible units units and fight with it next." [nowhere is the word "Ability" used]

Since we have already done all our charge we are now in the FIGHT phase. Per BRB the order is as follows:

"1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an
enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
This includes all units, not just those controlled by the
player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn
fight first. "

Now taking all this into consideration, assuming I have fought with my first charging unit, at this point my opponent may choose to play the Counter Offensive Stratagem. As long as it is within 1" of an enemy unit. (lets assume that is the case)

This stratagem is NOT an ABILITY. And Paroxysm specifically targets "ABILITIES." The descriptions found under the unit entry in each codex like Living Battering Ram under Carnifexes for example, or the Quicksilver Swiftness.

Now to conclude...
At the very top of the Stratagems page, before it actual list of the the card images of stratagems there is some text.
"If your army is battleforge and includes any (INSERT ARMY) Detachments, up have access to the Stratagems shown below, meaning you can spend A Cmd point to activate them. These reflect the unique STRATEGIES (not abilities) used
by the by the (INSERT ARMY) on the battlefield." [Again, nowhere is the word "ability" used.]

Concluding:
Stratagems are NOT ABILITIES, they are Uniquely STRATAGEMS. Paroxysm Overrides a unit ABILITY, not UNIQUE STRATEGIES. Thus, the COUNTER OFFENSIVE STRATAGEM WOULD indeed allow a unit to attack EVEN if it was under the influence of PAROXYSM.



Where the Paroxsym power comes into play, is in shutting down those ABILITIES and forcing the opponent to spend the 2 CP to attack.

A viable tactic: Nid player plays Paroxysm on a unit of Deamons with the Quicksilver Swiftness effectively negating the use of that ABILITY. Now the opponent, who is used to normally getting to fight first cannot. The opponent is then faced with the decision to burn 2 CP and play the Counter Offensive Stratagem to counter play your Paroxsym power. He trumped your trump card so to speak, but at the cost of 2 CP.



TL;DR Stratagems are NOT ABILITIES, they are Uniquely STRATAGEMS. Paroxysm Overrides a unit ABILITIES, not UNIQUE STRATEGIES. Thus the COUNTER OFFENSIVE STRATAGEM would indeed allow a unit to attack even if it was under the influence of PAROXYSM.

Again: In writing this, I actually flipped my stance on the matter. (sucks because I play nids)

Paroxysm doesn't target abilities. It targets units and has a stipulation about units with abilities that would create a contradiction issue with the rules.

You don't use paroxysm to shut own abilities (though you could I suppose). You use it to force an enemy unit into the least favorable position in the pecking order of the fight phase.

Dynas, it's also used to stop charging units from fighting first. The 'fight first' nature of charges is neither an ability nor a conflicting strategem. Your premise of Paroxysm 'targeting abilities' is all wrong. The part of Paroxysm about 'abilities that grant X rule' is there attempt to catch some situations where rules would directly contradict Paroxysm, thus providing a way to handle the situation. However, the rules writers failed to foresee or provide guidance for when a strategem directly contradicts it.

Wow, when I last saw this thread was a week ago or so. Perhaps we just an FAQ and before that either outcome is dubius. :-)