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Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

Shinzra wrote:
Appreciate all the comments.

I'm just trying to decide on a competitive force that's not a soup army.

The gaming group I play in is quite competitive so looking for a force which can compete

You are going to have to really just wait a while if you want the internet to answer you. The codex is to new to fully understand how they will impact the overall global meta (if one exists).
Soup is the order of this edition. I hate it as well. But you are shooting yourself in the foot then trying to run a marathon by not taking soup to tournaments.
Despite peoples differences of thought on this codex, which are many, I think it is safe to say that a properly built and played list is at the very least above average in power level.

Then again the global meta means nothing for most players that are not attending major tournaments. And without knowing your local meta it is very hard to give you a clear answer. For instance, lets say your meta is being dominated by elite power armored armies. In this case Rubrics are going to go a long way. It just depends on who or what you play.

Edit : Honestly, if you are looking for a non soup chaos force then your best bet is Alpha Legion and Death Guard. I am not saying 1ksons are inferior (yet) but just the other two are safer bets until this codex has had more play time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

To be fair I do not think anyone is saying the codex is trash. Just a bunch of people are upset at the direction the codex went (AoS models).

The codex is really good.

But everytime I look at Rubrics / Scarabs and how they perform, I can't help but think "more Tzaangors / Daemons would have been better instead".

They *NEED* to bring Rubrics down to 18ppm (with Weapon) and either give Scarabs movement 5" (they're in Tartaros armor ffs !) or a point reduction (All Is Dust is worthless on them).

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

The latter are the ones not playing games or who think the other units are not usable.

Rubrics need to be slightly cheaper, but to count them out is laughable.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

The latter are the ones not playing games or who think the other units are not usable.

Rubrics need to be slightly cheaper, but to count them out is laughable.

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me). So for me, our Rubrics are worse than vanilla CSM. This is not even going into the legion traits and how they affect them. GW dropped the ball hard with Rubrics and how they interact with CSM vs TS. By all rights we should be rocking 2 heavy in 10 and our legion trait does zip and zilch for them outside of the caster I do not use.

Tell me, what are going to choose. -1 to be hit infiltrating (with stratagem) with two heavy guns and a mini smite OR a caster that runs the very real risk of blowing up his own squad with one heavy weapon and deep striking (with stratagem).
For me, its no contest. If I am going to take Rubrics ill add a Alpha Legion detachment to my army. This should not be. It is clearly a ball dropped hard by GW. But this could be, and I admit this, that the -1 to hit trait is to powerful. But Death Guard players dont dip alpha legion to run effective plague marines because they have stratagems and warlord traits that directly buff them. We do not outside of VoTLW which death guard and alpha legion also rock.

This codex should have had far more of a focus on our Iconic units. Instead we got codex thousand gors. The only reason to not focus at least one dedicated stratagem on Rubrics was to make them a inferior choice to Tzaangors. And yes, GW does operate in this fashion. It is just they are so rarely blatant about it. This post is going to make me unpopular but it is how I see things.

I do want to end this by saying I generally like the codex and love the army. But my few gripes are major ones.

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me). So for me, our Rubrics are worse than vanilla CSM. This is not even going into the legion traits and how they affect them. GW dropped the ball hard with Rubrics and how they interact with CSM vs TS. By all rights we should be rocking 2 heavy in 10 and our legion trait does zip and zilch for them outside of the caster I do not use.

Tell me, what are going to choose. -1 to be hit infiltrating (with stratagem) with two heavy guns and a mini smite OR a caster that runs the very real risk of blowing up his own squad with one heavy weapon and deep striking (with stratagem).
For me, its no contest. If I am going to take Rubrics ill add a Alpha Legion detachment to my army. This should not be. It is clearly a ball dropped hard by GW. But this could be, and I admit this, that the -1 to hit trait is to powerful. But Death Guard players dont dip alpha legion to run effective plague marines because they have stratagems and warlord traits that directly buff them. We do not outside of VoTLW which death guard and alpha legion also rock.

This codex should have had far more of a focus on our Iconic units. Instead we got codex thousand gors. The only reason to not focus at least one dedicated stratagem on Rubrics was to make them a inferior choice to Tzaangors. And yes, GW does operate in this fashion. It is just they are so rarely blatant about it. This post is going to make me unpopular but it is how I see things.

I do want to end this by saying I generally like the codex and love the army. But my few gripes are major ones.

A couple of points in order to get the 2 heavy weapons you need 20 rubrics regardless of which entry you use. Also, you can still perils with the mini smite so I don't understand why you would cast that but not the other spells that are way better?

My only gripe with rubrics is that they have the same role the Scarabs, have about the same price, and Scarabs are just a better choice IMO. The flamers on the rubrics are interesting but I also play with Tzeentch daemons so their flamers are a better option there. I don't really understand all the salt about the soul reaper cannon I never take it is still way too over priced for what it does. The only major gripe I have about the codex is I think the bow gors are silly and I am trying to think of a way to convert them. I am thinking flames on their hands to make them look like they are shooting magic stuff.

The Salt Mine wrote:

My only gripe with rubrics is that they have the same role the Scarabs, have about the same price, and Scarabs are just a better choice IMO.

This.
Rubrics and Scarab Occult Terminators have the exact same role in the army, and want the exact same buffs (Prescience, VotLW).
And since SOT's are overall much better...

I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models.

Gaze of Fate and a cp reroll gives all the protection you need. It's already so rare by caster I peril most often on my bigger casters. I give rubric squads either Temporal (for redundancy) or Firestorm since they'll be near by tanks and whatnot anyway and those spells are relatively simple to cast most of the time. And the best mileage I get out of them is getting 3 casters in 6" to Doombolt primarchs, uber melee, etc.

Tell me, what are going to choose. -1 to be hit infiltrating (with stratagem) with two heavy guns and a mini smite OR a caster that runs the very real risk of blowing up his own squad with one heavy weapon and deep striking (with stratagem).

You've discounted the huge benefit of 24" instead of 18" spells. You can be -1 to hit all day, but smite won't care.

The only reason to not focus at least one dedicated stratagem on Rubrics was to make them a inferior choice to Tzaangors. And yes, GW does operate in this fashion. It is just they are so rarely blatant about it.

You can make that claim if you ignore everything else Rubrics can do, but it's your tinfoil hat to wear. Tzaangors are only going to get you so far. I tabled a bloodletter bomb with Death Hex, so Tzaangors don't really push the needle.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I don't really understand all the salt about the soul reaper cannon I never take it is still way too over priced for what it does.

Think of it this way - a rubric gets 1 shot at 24". For 15 points it's like having 3 extra Rubrics at 24" with better S and AP. If they added that back and made All Is Dust work for Scarabs i'd wouldn't want for anything else.

The Salt Mine wrote:

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me). So for me, our Rubrics are worse than vanilla CSM. This is not even going into the legion traits and how they affect them. GW dropped the ball hard with Rubrics and how they interact with CSM vs TS. By all rights we should be rocking 2 heavy in 10 and our legion trait does zip and zilch for them outside of the caster I do not use.

Tell me, what are going to choose. -1 to be hit infiltrating (with stratagem) with two heavy guns and a mini smite OR a caster that runs the very real risk of blowing up his own squad with one heavy weapon and deep striking (with stratagem).
For me, its no contest. If I am going to take Rubrics ill add a Alpha Legion detachment to my army. This should not be. It is clearly a ball dropped hard by GW. But this could be, and I admit this, that the -1 to hit trait is to powerful. But Death Guard players dont dip alpha legion to run effective plague marines because they have stratagems and warlord traits that directly buff them. We do not outside of VoTLW which death guard and alpha legion also rock.

This codex should have had far more of a focus on our Iconic units. Instead we got codex thousand gors. The only reason to not focus at least one dedicated stratagem on Rubrics was to make them a inferior choice to Tzaangors. And yes, GW does operate in this fashion. It is just they are so rarely blatant about it. This post is going to make me unpopular but it is how I see things.

I do want to end this by saying I generally like the codex and love the army. But my few gripes are major ones.

A couple of points in order to get the 2 heavy weapons you need 20 rubrics regardless of which entry you use. Also, you can still perils with the mini smite so I don't understand why you would cast that but not the other spells that are way better?

My only gripe with rubrics is that they have the same role the Scarabs, have about the same price, and Scarabs are just a better choice IMO. The flamers on the rubrics are interesting but I also play with Tzeentch daemons so their flamers are a better option there. I don't really understand all the salt about the soul reaper cannon I never take it is still way too over priced for what it does. The only major gripe I have about the codex is I think the bow gors are silly and I am trying to think of a way to convert them. I am thinking flames on their hands to make them look like they are shooting magic stuff.

I worded a bunch of stuff wrong here. Let me elaborate. In order to get MSU rubrics at their most effective you would be looking outside of our faction and codex. I listed the mini smite as a feature to be complete about what each offers, not that you should cast it. I had to go back and pull out my CSM codex and re-read the entry and you are indeed correct so that takes a bit of salt out of my mine.

Its good to note that the rubric flamers are -1 ap better than demon flamers but demon flamers out distance rubrics by a few inchs. Also it is good to note our rubric flamers cost the same as a combi-plasma. Frankly they are to expensive to ever field them outside of one or two for overwatch damage.

And yes, I thought that fact was well established before the codex drop. Its no secret that Rubrics and SoTs are redundant. I was complaining about it when wrath of magnus dropped. You see back in my day we had to walk a mile through snow to get to the bathroom!

And finally. I would be hard pressed to waste a re-roll on a asp periling. But yes, that option does exist and also you can command point re-roll if you are flush with cp's.

The peril issue comes down to personal choice. But there should have been some form of native protection or mitigation in the squad itself to make it safer to use the Asp as its enhanced casting is meant to go some way to make up for the unit being overcosted. (edit it also takes care of the smite nerf interaction with mini-smites.)

I still stand by my points. Which is that Rubrics and SoTs should have been a bigger focus in this codex as they are our backbone and iconic unit. At least one dedicated stratagem outside of Veterans would have gone a long way to curb some of the ill will and make the unit more attractive to a competitive player over gors or horrors. I still run Rubrics. I still run one unit of SoTs.

Spoletta wrote:
Rubrics are nothing like other MEQs.

Execpt for S, T, W, A, Weapon S, Attack S, number of shooting attacks, and base save. Yeah totally different.

Spoletta wrote:They have good offensive power in ranged and decent melee.

How do they have good offensive power in ranged? They have decent ranged power and are terrible in CC. They, point for point, do less damage then Guardsman in CC.

Spoletta wrote:They are extremely durable and can manifest and dissipate.

They are durable vs small arms which no one with half a brain shoots at them unless they have no other options. Against heavy weapons they die all the same.

Just because they CAN do something dosent mean they should. As far as I can tell people mostly put " throw away" spells on them. That is spells which don't matter. If you do put a spell on them you have to use 2 CP to cast it, over 4 turns thats 8 CP.

Spoletta wrote:Contrarily to their MEQ cousins, they don't pay the full price for what they have, and instead get a nice package discount.

A package discount is only good if you use everything. If you have things that are useless (like a Sgt. That pays 10 extra points for CC equipment which is only good if most the unit is dead) it is not a good deal.

Spoletta wrote:They are without a doubt one of the best troop choices in the games. Tzangoors are better for your list only if you want to invest a lot in them, that said, with support they can do really nasty things. If what you need is a self sufficent unit though, rubrics are the obvious choice.

Oh man, that is rich. Tzaangors are better in every way. Self sufficient? Rubrics? You mean the squad thatNEEDS a Rhino?

Spoletta wrote:For a 5 man unit having one with 2 S6 AP-1 d3 attacks is decent.

For 27 points on a single wound model it is decent in a unit that wants to be in CC. In a unit that pays 2 point for a gun at the very least, its terrible.

Spoletta wrote:Stack those 220 pts of units against each other in real situations, and you will see that Rubrics come out on top 90% of times.
Refer for example to the 4 top lists of GW Heat 3.

You realize that the Rubrics would die in 1 turn right? With almost no losses to the Tzaangors. 2 Ork lists 1 Chaos list and 1 Tyranids list? Orks OP?

Spoletta wrote:Tzaangors by themselves are decent in small squads, but in big squads? Lol they are really bad if unsupported.

Everything is bad unsupported.

Spoletta wrote:[Rubrics] are without a doubt one of the best troop choices in the games.

oh man. That is hilarious.

Found the 1 Chaos list from top 4 (Won the GT) Not a single TS unit in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and if your looking for a Chaos non soup list undedicaded Daemons i hear does alright.

Just one thing... Why doesn't Icon of Flane do something cool? It could have buffed the flamers or something.

Bah!

Ie. Re-roll 1's to wound.

They really should have made the “ chapter tactic” “TS characters get extra six inch psyker ranger and TS non character infantry and hellbrute get +1 invul and if no invul then 5++”. That would help rubrics. Might make gors too good though.

 xeen wrote:
They really should have made the “ chapter tactic” “TS characters get extra six inch psyker ranger and TS non character infantry and hellbrute get +1 invul and if no invul then 5++”. That would help rubrics. Might make gors too good though.

I thought the same. The old Mark of Tzeentch rule to get +1 invlun for infantry / Helbrutes would have worked well for them without being game breaking. Gives them some protection against heavy weapons and makes them much more resistant to small arms fire with AP-1

 xeen wrote:
They really should have made the “ chapter tactic” “TS characters get extra six inch psyker ranger and TS non character infantry and hellbrute get +1 invul and if no invul then 5++”. That would help rubrics. Might make gors too good though.

Gors would need a price hike for a 4+ invuln. Im not sure that would be a good trade off. +1 to invuln saves is not to far off of the alpha legion trait but add it to a list of nerfs from coming into 8th edition. We have had some hard nerfs along with some hard buffs. I think we would have been fine with -3 AP bolters and Magnus pre-nerf. But it is what it is. As I have said my final take on this codex (for now) is it was a mixed bag. We got a lot of new ways to play but also lost Magnus as a competitive choice and there were a bunch of missed opportunities. All in all I feel the codex was rushed and probably needed more time in the play testing oven. Either way it is a solid codex if you happen to include the new hotness which is Gors (but apparently I am a conspiracy theorist and GW would never make rule decisions based on sales and projected sales.). If you want the old rubric spam back, then tough beans, move along until next codex in a few years (unless you are fine playing a under powered army list....which some players are.) I think this answers the OP with my own thoughts. Mileage may vary from player to player.

Tbh, they could've just given Tzaangors a 6++, which would then be increased to a 5++ with the "legion tactic".

I do agree that it's a missed opportunity to give Thousand Sons a legion tactic that only helps psykers (even if it's a pretty good legion tactic), and while a 4++ would by no means make Rubrics/SOT's OP, a 3++ against D1-weapons might be a bit too much.

Table wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

The latter are the ones not playing games or who think the other units are not usable.

Rubrics need to be slightly cheaper, but to count them out is laughable.

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me).

This is why rubrics are not performing for you. Right here. I'm sorry, but this is just not intelligent play and contributes a lot to the perception of rubrics being a weak unit. If you are holding a reroll (and with access to Gaze of Fate there is little reason not to be while you cast with your Asorcs) you have a 1% chance of hitting a perils.

For perspective, this is like saying you'd never overcharge with a unit of hellblasters even if they're in range of Azrael because they can still roll 2 1's in a row to overheat, therefore hellblasters are terrible because they do no damage. And before the inevitable "nuh UH", you can expect to lose 5 points of hellblasters on average per single-tap shot with a full reroll to hit, and 6 points of rubrics on average per cast with no reroll available. The peril is worse on the rubrics, removing on average 80 points of models as opposed to 38, but less likely, causing it to even out. If you hold the reroll, you are going to see a peril on an Asorc once every 5-10 games IF you're casting with all of them, every round. Which honestly you should unless you have no use for their spell and you've ramped your Smite counter up a couple times with the beta rule.

You're going to think any unit is trash if you don't use something that's a mandatory purchase on them. If you buy lascannons on all your guard squads and never fire them, you're probably going to be wondering why everyone thinks guard squads are such a balance problem.

In general, the only thing I wish they'd given Rubrics is DH discipline, because I would love to take Warptime on my SOTs without dropping a CP to get it, and I would love to have access to more cheap MW-generating spells on my rubrics because my Firestorm rubric squad is so often a massive standout in my games.

the_scotsman wrote:

Table wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

The latter are the ones not playing games or who think the other units are not usable.

Rubrics need to be slightly cheaper, but to count them out is laughable.

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me).

This is why rubrics are not performing for you. Right here. I'm sorry, but this is just not intelligent play and contributes a lot to the perception of rubrics being a weak unit. If you are holding a reroll (and with access to Gaze of Fate there is little reason not to be while you cast with your Asorcs) you have a 1% chance of hitting a perils.

For perspective, this is like saying you'd never overcharge with a unit of hellblasters even if they're in range of Azrael because they can still roll 2 1's in a row to overheat, therefore hellblasters are terrible because they do no damage. And before the inevitable "nuh UH", you can expect to lose 5 points of hellblasters on average per single-tap shot with a full reroll to hit, and 6 points of rubrics on average per cast with no reroll available. The peril is worse on the rubrics, removing on average 80 points of models as opposed to 38, but less likely, causing it to even out. If you hold the reroll, you are going to see a peril on an Asorc once every 5-10 games IF you're casting with all of them, every round. Which honestly you should unless you have no use for their spell and you've ramped your Smite counter up a couple times with the beta rule.

You're going to think any unit is trash if you don't use something that's a mandatory purchase on them. If you buy lascannons on all your guard squads and never fire them, you're probably going to be wondering why everyone thinks guard squads are such a balance problem.

In general, the only thing I wish they'd given Rubrics is DH discipline, because I would love to take Warptime on my SOTs without dropping a CP to get it, and I would love to have access to more cheap MW-generating spells on my rubrics because my Firestorm rubric squad is so often a massive standout in my games.

What he said.

Zodd1888 wrote:
Just one thing... Why doesn't Icon of Flane do something cool? It could have buffed the flamers or something.

Bah!

Ie. Re-roll 1's to wound.

+1 Inch to range of flamers.

 nintura wrote:

Zodd1888 wrote:
Just one thing... Why doesn't Icon of Flane do something cool? It could have buffed the flamers or something.

Bah!

Ie. Re-roll 1's to wound.

+1 Inch to range of flamers.

Yeah, that's definitely a missed opportunity. But the one that for me takes the cake is just. how. BORING the exalted sorceror is.

That kit has a freaking BAJILLION bits in it, I just built it yesterday! There's mutated arms casting a fire spell on the ammo feed to a bolt pistol, there's 8 unique-looking heads for Force Staves, floating books, special helmets with different crests, a backpack with cool braziers and one with wings, there's freaking magical bird-beaked attack tassels, it is arguably the single most customized, option-filled HQ kit in the entire game.

And what options do they have in game?

You can take a sword, or not. You can have a disc, or not.

I really, really hope we get some new options in a balance FAQ or a white dwarf or something, because wasting the sheer potential of that kit is just super dumb.

I agree. But at least they let you customize some aspiring sorcs that you may or may not play because of lack of competitiveness

the_scotsman wrote:

Table wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

The latter are the ones not playing games or who think the other units are not usable.

Rubrics need to be slightly cheaper, but to count them out is laughable.

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me).

This is why rubrics are not performing for you. Right here. I'm sorry, but this is just not intelligent play and contributes a lot to the perception of rubrics being a weak unit. If you are holding a reroll (and with access to Gaze of Fate there is little reason not to be while you cast with your Asorcs) you have a 1% chance of hitting a perils.

For perspective, this is like saying you'd never overcharge with a unit of hellblasters even if they're in range of Azrael because they can still roll 2 1's in a row to overheat, therefore hellblasters are terrible because they do no damage. And before the inevitable "nuh UH", you can expect to lose 5 points of hellblasters on average per single-tap shot with a full reroll to hit, and 6 points of rubrics on average per cast with no reroll available. The peril is worse on the rubrics, removing on average 80 points of models as opposed to 38, but less likely, causing it to even out. If you hold the reroll, you are going to see a peril on an Asorc once every 5-10 games IF you're casting with all of them, every round. Which honestly you should unless you have no use for their spell and you've ramped your Smite counter up a couple times with the beta rule.

You're going to think any unit is trash if you don't use something that's a mandatory purchase on them. If you buy lascannons on all your guard squads and never fire them, you're probably going to be wondering why everyone thinks guard squads are such a balance problem.

In general, the only thing I wish they'd given Rubrics is DH discipline, because I would love to take Warptime on my SOTs without dropping a CP to get it, and I would love to have access to more cheap MW-generating spells on my rubrics because my Firestorm rubric squad is so often a massive standout in my games.

I never said Rubrics are trash. I did however say, incorrectly I may add that CSM has more hvy weapons on rubrics in squads of ten. That error has been pointed out and I have shifted my stance on that. However I still stand by the fact that IF you are going to run MSU rubrics, that it is better to run alpha legion... for all the reasons I have mentioned above. It is still a question of choice on if you value -1 to be hit or a medium warp charge power that CAN peril and wipe out models. Ill gloss over the comment on my playing because I am not a competitive player and I am certainly positive that I am at best a mediocre player who, like other mediocre players is vulnerable to bad choices and bad tactics. I will only defend my decision to not cast with my two rubric squads because of my list make up being super heavy on psykers and now shaman. My asps are getting spells that are not critical to my army set up. Boon of Mutation is a dead spell to me because I have no Exalted Sorcs on foot or Sorcs/Termi Sorcs and Magnus is running Glamour/Temporal/Weaver/Infernal Gateway. My reasoning for this is to take the most critical powers and highest WC powers on Magnus due to his native +2 to cast and his aura of re-roll. Ahriman is running Doombolt due to its high WC cost so this leaves Firestorm which goes on my one squad of SoTs. So, what is left to go on my two rubric squads? Boon which is a dead spell in my list? In my non magnus list Ahriman takes on the critical 3 leaving doombolt and firestorm which goes to my two shaman.

So, with this being said, what exactly am I supposed to cast with my rubrics? They only get access to change (lamely). And I have yet to be in a game where I value a mini-smite over a chance to peril. You can say that is bad playing. And maybe for you it is. But ill say its good playing when you peril and take out 3 rubrics. Now there is a caveat. IF my rubric squads happen to be in range of Magnus's aura I will mini-smite because I am comfortable with that failure rate. Now you can say that it is my list building that is in error, which it could be as I only have a 60% win rate since the codex drop.


But all of this is meaningless. I could care less to defend my playing on dakka when we do not even have a battle report to go on. I just wanted to explain to you that with my list and how I value powers that Rubrics are often left with only mini-smite. If you happen to have input on how I hand out my powers to what caster then by all means, let it rip.

What I have said is below.

No one is counting out rubrics. I run two squads of Rubrics. I think Rubrics are a mid grade choice as they stand now. The current meta in my area favors horde lists so the fact I am taking rubrics at all is a fluff move as Cultists and Horrors would serve me far better. I think people are not happy with Rubrics due to the meta. I think Rubrics need to drop to 17 points. I think warpflamers need to drop to 10 minimum, id be happy with 8. I think Rubrics should have gotten a focused stratagem. I think SoT's are redundant with rubrics as they both serve the same roll. I think that haivng the asps limited to change was a bone headed move on GW's part.

So, if we are going to continue this banter ( I would rather not as I have already given my two cents to the OP) let us at least get on the same page and do not put words in my mouth. Rubrics are under performing for me due to my meta/list set up/and play style. And there is nothing wrong with that. I do not even think they are a "bad" unit. Just that they are not a verified competitive pick at the moment. When we start seeing top placing Tsons or Soup lists with Rubrics I will think on this again. Also, for sake of completeness. Last time I checked a Las Gun does not have a chance to gib one or two 20 point guardsmen when you fire it so that is not a viable talking point.

 xeen wrote:
They really should have made the “ chapter tactic” “TS characters get extra six inch psyker ranger and TS non character infantry and hellbrute get +1 invul and if no invul then 5++”. That would help rubrics. Might make gors too good though.

seems a m ite bit much given it'd be better straight up then Custodes.

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

It seems to be to be basically divided along those who want to see all power armor all day, and those who want to see anything but power armor all day. [Personally, I'm in the second camp. It's nice to see anything-but-marines, because all I ever see is more-goddamn-marines].

It seems that the codex itself is good.

the_scotsman wrote:
This is why rubrics are not performing for you. Right here. I'm sorry, but this is just not intelligent play and contributes a lot to the perception of rubrics being a weak unit. If you are holding a reroll (and with access to Gaze of Fate there is little reason not to be while you cast with your Asorcs) you have a 1% chance of hitting a perils.

For perspective, this is like saying you'd never overcharge with a unit of hellblasters even if they're in range of Azrael because they can still roll 2 1's in a row to overheat, therefore hellblasters are terrible because they do no damage. And before the inevitable "nuh UH", you can expect to lose 5 points of hellblasters on average per single-tap shot with a full reroll to hit, and 6 points of rubrics on average per cast with no reroll available. The peril is worse on the rubrics, removing on average 80 points of models as opposed to 38, but less likely, causing it to even out. If you hold the reroll, you are going to see a peril on an Asorc once every 5-10 games IF you're casting with all of them, every round. Which honestly you should unless you have no use for their spell and you've ramped your Smite counter up a couple times with the beta rule.

Here is the problem with your analogy. AS blow up in a 6" radius they don't just die themselves. So when an AS dies from perils they can kill 47 to 87 points from thier own unit and plus put 2 wounds on an ES or Ahriman, and kill up to 60 more points in another Rubric squad, plus a couple of Tzaangors. So saying 87 points average is a bit off we don't know the average because there is no way to tell. HB will lose 38 points every single time no matter what. They don't endanger the very aura that keeps them alive and they can very easily be replaced with another units that costs less but does around the same damage. The AS is one of the worst Sgt. in the game due to how he clashes with the rest of the unit. He is 100% CC oriented in a unit that being in CC with is 1000% the worst place to be with them. He's a 30 point model that wont get used until turn 3 or 4. It would be like the army having every team leaders load out being a Side Arm, a Sword, and an atomic hand gernade which he occasionally drops and kills the team and other teams around him. It's the dumbest setup for a unit there could possibly be.

the_scotsman wrote:
You're going to think any unit is trash if you don't use something that's a mandatory purchase on them. If you buy lascannons on all your guard squads and never fire them, you're probably going to be wondering why everyone thinks guard squads are such a balance problem.

Comparing a unit that CAN upgrade something which has no chance of killing the model, and a unit that MUST take something that could do upwards of 150 points of damage on a catastrophic failure is totally different. The question should be why

a couple of questions

1.) How many Rubric squads do you run?

2.) What spells do you cast with your AS

3.) Do you use any augments besides the rerolls?

4.) What do you do if GoF dosen't cast?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

It seems to be to be basically divided along those who want to see all power armor all day, and those who want to see anything but power armor all day. [Personally, I'm in the second camp. It's nice to see anything-but-marines, because all I ever see is more-goddamn-marines].

It seems that the codex itself is good.

There is a third camp that thinks that neither unit should really tresspass on the others role. Right now anything Rubrics can do Tzaangors can do better, with a couple exceptions.

Great spread of information and posts. Appreciate it.

I have added a poll also for those who want to cast there vote

1) 20, pretty much every game, and either 5 or 10 SOTs. Sorcerors, Ahriman, Rubrics, SOTs, and the rhinos they ride in make up about 1250-1500 of my typical 2k lists.

2) varies depending on army setup, as it should. Firestorm is a pretty common one I tend to like, because it introduces a high-percentile "critical success" to my AS alongside the low-percentile critical failure of a perils. Temporal Manipulation is also common on rubric AS, and I almost always run Weaver on SOTs.

3) Not sure what you mean by "Augments".

4) risk/benefit analysis. Like you should do with every unit in 40k, pretty much at all times. Do I have a single-wound ahriman and three other squads within 6" of an AS? I'll hold off on casting him for the turn, and try to position him better in my next turn. There's little reason for me to position an AS that badly. Usually if he's 6" away from anything, he's next to his rhino, and if he pops the rhino for a couple of mortals on a perils, that's really the least of my worries.

Couple other notes:

The AS is not 100% setup for melee. He is a psyker, with the same equipment of pretty much every single psyker in the game. Would you say that a primaris psyker was 100% setup for melee? Most of the aspiring sorceror's spells have the exact same range of the rest of his squad, and if you're not getting any use out of him until turn 3, you might be doing something wrong. Maybe you took firestorm on them in the vs gunline matchup and the only thing you can hit at 24" is a guard screen - maybe don't do that. Take a defensive buff and cast it on something that's likely to be targeted.

The only role that tzaangors tresspass on with respect to rubrics is the new way to run them added in the codex: Deep striking them into the enemy lines. In that instance, yes, Tzaangors 100% outperform Rubrics because the deep strike rubric bomb is honestly not very good, and by contrast it is the best way to run tzaangors. in the "standing out in the open at the beginning of the game" contest, tzaangors also win, but neither is actually good at that role, and you may as well say Tzaangors are getting shoved out by Cultists/Brimstones. Compare Tzaangors and Rubrics as rhino-borne mechanized infantry, and there's no comparison. The tzaangors take more turns to start being effective, require three times as many points to be spent on rhinos, and compare unfavorably to nearly every other melee line infantry out there once they do get out of their transports.

They're just two completely different units that want to do different things. You're going to get the exact same kind of comparison if you take, for example, IG infantry squads in Chimeras and compare them to Tactical Marines in rhinos. The current 8th ed meta doesn't favor mechanized infantry, but even so, the tactical marines are better at being mechanized infantry than the guardsmen are. Guardsmen aren't shoving tactical marines out of their role as mechanized infantry, they're being taken in soup lists and used for a completely different purpose, as a chaff screen.

1.8% (or 0.3% with reroll) That is the chance your AS will miscast and blow up 3 of his own dudes.
5.6%(or 0.9%with reroll) is the chance at least 1 will be blown up.

vs a 83% chance to get a succesful baby smite.

The lack of risk is calculated but boy are you bad at math.

the chance of taking ohters with you needs to be added here but that goes for your opponents models as well as your own. I once saw a AS finish of 2 carnifexes with 1 failed smite.

 Earth127 wrote:
1.8% (or 0.3% with reroll) That is the chance your AS will miscast and blow up 3 of his own dudes.
5.6%(or 0.9%with reroll) is the chance at least 1 will be blown up.

vs a 83% chance to get a succesful baby smite.

The lack of risk is calculated but boy are you bad at math.

the chance of taking ohters with you needs to be added here but that goes for your opponents models as well as your own. I once saw a AS finish of 2 carnifexes with 1 failed smite.

I would never assume you have a reroll available to try and mitigate the D3 damage rolls for the aspiring sorceror.

so, your 5.6%/0.9% chance there I definitely agree with, and you should usually be rolling at that 0.9% chance, but on average when the aspiring sorceror perils, he kills 3 of his buddies, because the initial D3 damage he takes on the perils does spill over, and then the additional D3 goes into the squad. so, worst case, 6 guys die including the sorc, best case 2 die including the sorc.

I don't think babysmite is very often worth the risk to cast (though it occasionally is, especially when you're up against something with a good invuln) but that's why it's nice that they now have access to other powers. Weaver, Glamour, Temporal and Firestorm are all highly useful spells to have on rubric units, well worth a 0.9% chance of losing a chunk of rubrics.

If you want to feel like pretty much any unit in the game sucks, try calculating what happens to them if they roll in the bottom 0.9 percentile of possibility for their attacks, or saves, or whatever.

My math is slightly off. The smaller percnetage is if you reroll the psychic test.

5.6% to blow up at least one. 2% approxiamtely of killing at least 3 rubrics if the first mortal wounds spill over.

But I forgot abou the spilling over 1st perils D3. Tough I might argue that the perils rule specificly targets the psyker and not its unite and the rubrics do not count and only suffer the extra D3 mortl (unlike GK squads where everyone is the psyker).

I'm not a dedicated Thousand Sons player nor have I been a die-hard fan of the legion for any length of time - that said as a competitive player I really like the book. I know that perspective probably isn't as valued as someone who is specifically a fan of the army but I think it is worth looking at.

From a 'Chaos Soup' ingredient stand point the book really brings a lot to the table. It can mesh well with several variants of chaos's successful tricks from simple patrols to get access to a great DP with CP regen to meshing well with pink horror drops or cultist bombs. All in all the book has been a great tool for me as a competitive player to add some new layers and new setups for my army.