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Kid_Kyoto






Probably work



I don't understand. Your thoughts are a URL?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/08 20:00:12


Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Looking for the Rest of the II Legion

IMO I really enjoy how streamlined things have become. It’s easy to pick up and just enjoy.

"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest, to children ardent for some desperate glory the old lie, Dulce et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori."
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preston

The OP should play Infinity if he thinks Wargames are becoming simple

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

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Steelcity

Games shouldn't be a pain in the ass to play when technology has made things easier. There is a large segment of human society in general that wants people to experience the same amount of hardship they had to go through, no matter what it is.

Do I miss terrible pewter models from the 80s? Lack of decent primer, rules printed in highschool quality books? No ability to find each other?

Not at all.

Less time I spend on the BS parts of a hobby the more time I can spend on the enjoyable parts.

Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
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My response to the subject: http://adurot.tumblr.com/post/171685503084/no

 
   
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Grisly Guild Autopsy





If you think wargaming is getting easy, try playing a game that's actually challenging.

I'm playing Infinity. It's got a huge learning curve and it's thematic AF. Really enjoying myself.

There is a thin semantic line between weird and beautiful. And that line is covered in jellyfish. 
   
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Moustache-twirling Princeps




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Kirasu wrote:
Games shouldn't be a pain in the ass to play when technology has made things easier. There is a large segment of human society in general that wants people to experience the same amount of hardship they had to go through, no matter what it is.

Do I miss terrible pewter models from the 80s? Lack of decent primer, rules printed in highschool quality books? No ability to find each other?

Not at all.

Less time I spend on the BS parts of a hobby the more time I can spend on the enjoyable parts.


I mean, I don't particularly agree with the basic proposition of the OP, but going for the most extreme possible opposite of a lot of modern products and then dismissing criticism of the latter by branding everything else a "BS parts" doesn't really fly. I don't miss the bad parts of gaming, but there are plenty of things that I considered good parts that have been "streamlined" away over the years.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in gb
Most Glorious Grey Seer






Depends on what you mean by 'easy'.

Consider my first outing into Bloodbowl. Charts. Lots and lots and lots of charts. Fun in their own way, but extended the game time somewhat.

I still miss them to some degree (nostalgia), but having Block Dice is a far swifter way of getting to the same conclusion.

Age of Sigmar. No, it doesn't have the same onus on deployment that Warhammer Fantasy did, simply because redressing one's line is far easier when you don't need to stick to formation. But, despite having very few rules, the game still has depth - and barring disastrous dice rolls, an experienced player still as a distinct edge over a new comer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a broader thought....

I don't want minutiae in my wargames. Whilst there's doubtless a market for it, it's not my cup of tea. I want to replicate the experience of being a general - not a soldier.

When I want to play Mighty Warrior, I go LARPing, where it's me and my mates vs the monsters. But even then, there's very straight forward rules to aid the flow of the game. Double Handed weapons don't do additional damage, as their greater reach is advantage enough is a good example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/09 14:23:52


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Kid_Kyoto






Probably work



My biggest regret in life is that I have but one exalt to give for this post.

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Walking Dead Wraithlord






I've avoided posting in any of the threads related to this blog post, but to me it's really quite simple.

Wargaming is a niche. It was more of a niche long ago than it is now, because we do have access to a number of easier introductory games/systems, etc. However, with that comes the broadening of the definition of "wargamer" as a person who enjoys the hobby. If, say in 1992 you were a wargamer, you were likely investing a lot of time, money, etc. into pursuing the poorly supported hobby. For the most part other people who categorized themselves as "wargamers" were in the same boat. You may have had differing budgets and levels of skill or enthusiasm, but generally speaking you both bought pewter or lead miniatures, paintstakingly glued them to squares of cereal packet - dusted them with primer and painted them...then tossed grass flake on the base, etc.

Nowdays with the broadening of the hobby, a person who considers themselves a "wargamer" is much more vast. A man in his 50's with 2,000+ 28mm painted Napoleonics may run into a 14 year old kid who owns a boxed set of X-Wing he shoves under his bed when he's not playing. They're both "wargamers" by definition, but the common ground is perhaps far less common.

It's the same when you run into a person who says "Oh, I'm such a geeky gamer!" because they watched Stranger Things once and play a handful of app-games on their cell phone. They have relatively little in common with a person building custom PC rigs to run 1,000s of hours in a clan in their MMO, etc. Again the common ground is minimal, but the term "gamer" is broad, etc.

So, I think wargaming is still much as it was to many people in the 80's and 90's, but our hobby has expanded in so many directions that there is less and less common ground amongst the community as a whole. There are still gaming groups dedicated to Advanced Squad Leader (if you want complex...holy shitballs, look at that game...a binder of hundreds of pages of 6-font type.). They're just lost in the crowd now.

 
   
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Powerful Pegasus Knight








I quoted the article on the other page, the OP just wants hits to his site


joe5mc wrote:
If I am in violation of forum rules, I apologize.


Can you respond to the thread? or are you a blogger who just drops a link and leaves. We clearly see you're active posting

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 14:21:31



 
   
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Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Stevefamine wrote:

I quoted the article on the other page, the OP just wants hits to his site

I know, I was posting a worthless non-answer in response to his worthless non-post.

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Hamrun, Malta

Part of the beauty of this hobby is surely that it's to a large extent what you make it and there are games to cater to different types. I think the title of the thread is too general a question to address such a broad span.

If you want to play X-Wing with cool pre-painted figures, you can.

If you want to lovingly convert and paint a counts as Squat army you can.

If you and your mates want to play with your own homebrewed rules you can.

There are different types and degrees of difficulty but frankly life and work are difficult enough, I don't have the patience or mental energy left at the end of the day for studying tomes of rules like I did in my teens. I don't want duh-brain simplicity but I certainly want to cut to the chase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 19:30:44


 
   
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Stonecold Gimster






Blimey. So much hatred towards Joe McFrostgrave for posting a link to his blog. I don't think he'll care less about hits to his site. I expect it was more about the hassle of laying out the same story again.

As for the title? Yeah. I'm glad it is. When I was young and there was really only WFB then along came 40k, they seemed complex and each book added more complexity. I had time, and they were the only systems I played. Now i play over 20 different games with my wife (who likes games under 2 hours) so easier rules is better for me.

Mind you, even though 40k and WFB (AoS) are apparently simpler, they're still pretty lousy systems compared to some of the really great rule sets out there these days. If you want older more complex games, the figures are usually made by someone and places like Wargame Vault have loads of pdf rules.

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Los Angeles

 Elbows wrote:
Spoiler:
I've avoided posting in any of the threads related to this blog post, but to me it's really quite simple.

Wargaming is a niche. It was more of a niche long ago than it is now, because we do have access to a number of easier introductory games/systems, etc. However, with that comes the broadening of the definition of "wargamer" as a person who enjoys the hobby. If, say in 1992 you were a wargamer, you were likely investing a lot of time, money, etc. into pursuing the poorly supported hobby. For the most part other people who categorized themselves as "wargamers" were in the same boat. You may have had differing budgets and levels of skill or enthusiasm, but generally speaking you both bought pewter or lead miniatures, paintstakingly glued them to squares of cereal packet - dusted them with primer and painted them...then tossed grass flake on the base, etc.

Nowdays with the broadening of the hobby, a person who considers themselves a "wargamer" is much more vast. A man in his 50's with 2,000+ 28mm painted Napoleonics may run into a 14 year old kid who owns a boxed set of X-Wing he shoves under his bed when he's not playing. They're both "wargamers" by definition, but the common ground is perhaps far less common.

It's the same when you run into a person who says "Oh, I'm such a geeky gamer!" because they watched Stranger Things once and play a handful of app-games on their cell phone. They have relatively little in common with a person building custom PC rigs to run 1,000s of hours in a clan in their MMO, etc. Again the common ground is minimal, but the term "gamer" is broad, etc.

So, I think wargaming is still much as it was to many people in the 80's and 90's, but our hobby has expanded in so many directions that there is less and less common ground amongst the community as a whole. There are still gaming groups dedicated to Advanced Squad Leader (if you want complex...holy shitballs, look at that game...a binder of hundreds of pages of 6-font type.). They're just lost in the crowd now


Just wanted to say this was a well thought out post.


Heard this story on the radio today, and found an article related to it from a few weeks ago.

Basically, young children in school are no longer able to hold writing implements correctly due to lack of dexterity and development of muscles/fine motor skills in their hands. In turn their writing is suffering because they cannot manipulate a pen or pencil correctly. This is being blamed on children largely engaging with technology (tablets/smart phones etc.) and not playing with traditional toys.

Now, since the OP blog post talked lovingly of writing army lists and such, we need to consider that if the next generation can't grip a pencil properly our hobby may well need some short cuts worked in if we want to attract new blood. Jeez, never mind army lists, what about holding a paint brush?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/children-struggle-to-hold-pencils-due-to-too-much-tech-doctors-say

Spoiler:
Children are increasingly finding it hard to hold pens and pencils because of an excessive use of technology, senior paediatric doctors have warned.

An overuse of touchscreen phones and tablets is preventing children’s finger muscles from developing sufficiently to enable them to hold a pencil correctly, they say.

“Children are not coming into school with the hand strength and dexterity they had 10 years ago,” said Sally Payne, the head paediatric occupational therapist at the Heart of England foundation NHS Trust. “Children coming into school are being given a pencil but are increasingly not be able to hold it because they don’t have the fundamental movement skills.

“To be able to grip a pencil and move it, you need strong control of the fine muscles in your fingers,. Children need lots of opportunity to develop those skills.”

Payne said the nature of play had changed. “It’s easier to give a child an iPad than encouraging them to do muscle-building play such as building blocks, cutting and sticking, or pulling toys and ropes. Because of this, they’re not developing the underlying foundation skills they need to grip and hold a pencil.”

Six-year-old Patrick has been having weekly sessions with an occupational therapist for six months to help him develop the necessary strength in his index finger to hold a pencil in the correct, tripod grip.

His mother, Laura, blames herself: “In retrospect, I see that I gave Patrick technology to play with, to the virtual exclusion of the more traditional toys. When he got to school, they contacted me with their concerns: he was gripping his pencil like cavemen held sticks. He just couldn’t hold it in any other way and so couldn’t learn to write because he couldn’t move the pencil with any accuracy.

“The therapy sessions are helping a lot and I’m really strict now at home with his access to technology,” she said. “I think the school caught the problem early enough for no lasting damage to have been done.”

Mellissa Prunty, a paediatric occupational therapist who specialises in handwriting difficulties in children, is concerned that increasing numbers of children may be developing handwriting late because of an overuse of technology.

“One problem is that handwriting is very individual in how it develops in each child,” said Prunty, the vice-chair of the National Handwriting Association who runs a research clinic at Brunel University London investigating key skills in childhood, including handwriting.

“Without research, the risk is that we make too many assumptions about why a child isn’t able to write at the expected age and don’t intervene when there is a technology-related cause,” she said.

But Barbie Clarke, a child psychotherapist and founder of the Family Kids and Youth research agency, said even nursery schools were acutely aware of the problem that she said stemmed from excessive use of technology at home.“We go into a lot of schools and have never gone into one, even one which has embraced teaching through technology, which isn’t using pens alongside the tablets and iPads,” she said. “Even the nurseries we go into which use technology recognise it should not all be about that.”

Although the early years curriculum has handwriting targets for every year, different primary schools focus on handwriting in different ways – with some using tablets alongside pencils, Clarke said.

Karin Bishop, an assistant director at the Royal College of Occupational Therapists, also admitted concerns. “It is undeniable that technology has changed the world where our children are growing up,” she said. “Whilst there are many positive aspects to the use of technology, there is growing evidence on the impact of more sedentary lifestyles and increasing virtual social interaction, as children spend more time indoors online and less time physically participating in active occupations.” she said. ends

• This article was amended on 9 March 2018. An earlier version misattributed a quote to Mellissa Prunty, which should have been attributed to Barbie Clarke.


   
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 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Blimey. So much hatred towards Joe McFrostgrave for posting a link to his blog. I don't think he'll care less about hits to his site. I expect it was more about the hassle of laying out the same story again.


We've only got a couple of rules and it falls into the spam one I'm pretty sure. Honestly, not even providing even a bit of content just "here's mah blog" and leaving just kills any thread from the start cause there's no content here. Also after seeing the copy paste of it here it's a bit funny that that's how he opened a thread about streamlining/convenience in wargaming and how it can be a bad thing.


I'm actually glad it's streamlining really; there's more options out there now but nothing stops you from doing things yourself.
   
Made in nl
Moustache-twirling Princeps




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Blimey. So much hatred towards Joe McFrostgrave for posting a link to his blog. I don't think he'll care less about hits to his site. I expect it was more about the hassle of laying out the same story again.


The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text?

I trust the point is made.

It's bad form to just post a link, blogpost links go in two places - sigs, and at the end of the post on the forum where you do people the courtesy of laying out the argument you expect them to discuss on the platform you expect them to discuss it.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
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Stonecold Gimster






 Yodhrin wrote:
 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Blimey. So much hatred towards Joe McFrostgrave for posting a link to his blog. I don't think he'll care less about hits to his site. I expect it was more about the hassle of laying out the same story again.


The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text? The hassle of copying & pasting some text?

I trust the point is made.


Because I'm clearly not smart enough to have never seen copy/paste?
Thanks for the input.

I went to the blog page and noticed it was interspersed with pictures. Linking those into the article on dakka could be a pain and time consuming depending on where they're stored and if linking is allowed from the storage site.

Granted, he could have pasted the text only onto dakka along with the link.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






I also note that Easy E never seems to get this sort of vitriol for only posting the first paragraph of a rules review then linking to his blog for the rest of it.
   
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Swift Swooping Hawk





 Elbows wrote:
I've avoided posting in any of the threads related to this blog post, but to me it's really quite simple.

Wargaming is a niche. It was more of a niche long ago than it is now, because we do have access to a number of easier introductory games/systems, etc. However, with that comes the broadening of the definition of "wargamer" as a person who enjoys the hobby. If, say in 1992 you were a wargamer, you were likely investing a lot of time, money, etc. into pursuing the poorly supported hobby. For the most part other people who categorized themselves as "wargamers" were in the same boat. You may have had differing budgets and levels of skill or enthusiasm, but generally speaking you both bought pewter or lead miniatures, paintstakingly glued them to squares of cereal packet - dusted them with primer and painted them...then tossed grass flake on the base, etc.

Nowdays with the broadening of the hobby, a person who considers themselves a "wargamer" is much more vast. A man in his 50's with 2,000+ 28mm painted Napoleonics may run into a 14 year old kid who owns a boxed set of X-Wing he shoves under his bed when he's not playing. They're both "wargamers" by definition, but the common ground is perhaps far less common.

It's the same when you run into a person who says "Oh, I'm such a geeky gamer!" because they watched Stranger Things once and play a handful of app-games on their cell phone. They have relatively little in common with a person building custom PC rigs to run 1,000s of hours in a clan in their MMO, etc. Again the common ground is minimal, but the term "gamer" is broad, etc.

So, I think wargaming is still much as it was to many people in the 80's and 90's, but our hobby has expanded in so many directions that there is less and less common ground amongst the community as a whole. There are still gaming groups dedicated to Advanced Squad Leader (if you want complex...holy shitballs, look at that game...a binder of hundreds of pages of 6-font type.). They're just lost in the crowd now.


As an "old blood" myself, this is pretty much how I see the evolution of not only wargaming, but pretty much all leisure activities out there - early days in the history of existence of each and every hobby are times of struggling and improvising in a small niche, which in turn generate completely different mindset than entering a well developed and consumerised activity. Is it bad or good is debatable/subjective/depends on context, but it is most certainly different.
   
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Albany, NY

Alex Kolodotschko wrote:It was much harder back in the day. I was a kid, got meagre pocket money, spent loads of time at school, couldn't drive to the games store, friends houses or the hardware store, was worse at reading, writing, arithmetic, was worse at painting, didn't have computer access 24/7, didn't have any tools or space to use them etc
...
Take a look at the struggles that any youngster from your flgs, club, gw is having getting into wargaming.
They're still playing with dice borrowed from every game in the house, rules hand copied off websites, mum's sewing tape, an all to small kitchen table or a section of carpet with some books on it, clipping out models with nail clippers or kitchen knives, using awful cheap brushes and a tiny selection of paints, packing models into icecream containers, sharing rulebooks between a group etc
*flashbacks to somewhere around 22 years ago, shudders*
-Loki- wrote:The thing is, people like different things about the hobby.
And I think a thing worth noting is how much of the hobby different people enjoy engaging with. One of the reasons I left WMH was frustration at how few people painted their minis - but for many of those gamers painting minis wasn't what they wanted from the game, and with nobody saying they had to paint, they didn't. Likewise why I prefer to play GW games at one of my LGS over the other: because people at one store paint their armies and they don't at the other. Coincidentally the painted store also has more older, seasoned gamers who are generally less interested in powergaming, or are aware of the meta but know when to go full tournament mode (tm) and when to casualhammer. Spoiler: because I myself value modeling + painting as part of the mini gaming hobby, which only some of the time manifests in game format.

Anyway, more to say on hobbying as part of wargaming, as well as the converse, mini games that don't really have a hobby (i.e. most mini-based boardgames in my experience) and their limited engagement for me.
 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Mind you, even though 40k and WFB (AoS) are apparently simpler, they're still pretty lousy systems compared to some of the really great rule sets out there these days.
At this point, my chief reason for abandoning AOS (after trying the first couple years) is the lack of crunch. Obviously Good Things are obviously good, games are pretty straight forward wombo combo affairs that last ~30 min once setup is over, and, more than anything, the game can't stick in my mind. I've been obsessively coming up with 40k armies since the late 90s, even through the time I didn't play (5E-7E), and I do the same with KOW now all the time. I bounce between sweet modeling concepts, engaging themes, stories that I could tell in mini form, all connected to a ruleset or two that give me something to hold onto. AOS, lauded for its extreme simplicity (4 pages of rules everybody!), just can't find purchase. Essentially, it can't sustain a hobby for me, I can't take it with me to work and grind it over, similar to how board games don't hold my attention outside of the game.

I'm reminded of the campaign for Heroes of the Storm when it was just coming out, vying for some of that sweet MOBA game space against the titanic League of Legends (which I played at the time). Ads and my friends (Blizzard lackeys that they are) would try to entice me: Don't you want shorter games? Don't you want to skip the farming phase? Don't you want instant action? Don't you want less item / upgrade management? My answer to all of them was no, I wanted long ass games with a slow build up, small skirmishes building up into larger brawls, along with meaningful levels of upgrade minutiae. HOTS was exactly what I didn't want as a LOL player. I didn't want simple, I didn't want instant gratification. I wanted to do mostly my own thing and then team up and kick butt when the time came.

Sometimes I feel arguments like the OP here are similar - when it comes to games I don't always want it simpler. As I loudly heckled a bunch of board gamers (read: not mini gamers) at a house party a year ago, King of New York is far superior to King of Tokyo precisely because it's more complicated. Also set in NY

- Salvage

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2018/03/14 14:47:52


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Canada

Yes, people see this as "click bait" and seems a rather selfish means of creating a "discussion".
It is a simple matter of a copy/paste with a spoiler used if very wordy.
Add to the "community" or be ignored.

<edit> I would say that many "geek" pursuits I had, I did BECAUSE they were hard to do.
Rather than be inclusive, it was a means of "showing off" and seeing others of similar skills join and get to talk about a shared passion without "posers" injecting their uniformed opinions.

I am MUCH less of a snob/elitist/judgmental turkey than I was way back when.
BUT I can see a multitude of other reasons for pointing out "Wargaming getting too easy" but it those arguments lead toward exclusion not inclusion.
X-wing as pointed out has been a boon for getting a much larger variety of gamers out to play.

I do not see this "too easy" trend as a bad thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/14 14:58:42


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Chicago

Brief comment on the clickbait.

I find the one sentence and a link off-putting but I clicked anyway because it's a topic that interests me.

When I post related to my blog -which I often do- I nearly always include an intoductory statement, a few sentences of introduction (not a quote from the blog) and if possible a picture or two.It's not hard and it shows that I'm interested in what the forum members have to say. Perhaps just as importantly I try to pay attention to what is posted and replye to what is posted on the blog AND the forum.

That the OP did none of the above, does tend to indicate that he was just looking for clicks, but who really knows.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/14 17:12:10


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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I also note that Easy E never seems to get this sort of vitriol for only posting the first paragraph of a rules review then linking to his blog for the rest of it.


I know. It makes me sad. I would rather have vitriol than apathy!








Related to "getting clicks", he could make more money usng the time to find and recycle cans in the ditch than getting clicks on his blog. I know from experience.

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San Jose, CA

 Easy E wrote:




Related to "getting clicks", he could make more money usng the time to find and recycle cans in the ditch than getting clicks on his blog. I know from experience.


recycling cans gets me a bunch of paints or sometimes models. But blog click $£€¥ takes a fair amount of clicking.

but really it is kinda weak how the OP did it tho.
   
Made in us
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At this point, the differentiation between board game and miniature war game is becoming increasingly blurred. I call it the "Dudes On a Board" genre. There are miniatures (possibly a lot of miniatures), but it is still played on a board. Even within that hybrid genre, there's a spectrum. For instance, Imperial Assault is more board game than miniatures game, while Walking Dead: All Out War is more miniatures game than board game (but there's still dudes and still a board).

I think that's really where the majority of the growth in this industry is right now. I think that's where a lot of players are most comfortable being (building terrain, measuring movement, painting figures - not their favorite), and it tends to deliver an experience similar to wargaming, but generally without the hardcore community. Many miniature game companies are creating their own Dudes On a Board game (Shadespire, Aristeia, Deadzone/Star Saga, Dark Souls, Monsterpocalypse, Betrayal at Calth, Warhammer Quest) as a way to ease gamers into miniature wargaming, while a few companies that excel at Dudes On a Board are using that as a springboard into the more lucrative hobby miniatures ecosystem (FFG -> Runewars, SW Legion, CMON -> Game of Thrones). Because of this, you can't just go, "oh, Imperial Assault is a board game because FFG is a board game company". Is X-Wing a miniatures game or a board game? Honestly, fans of both claim it as their own.

So I guess my point is that wargames haven't gotten easier (I dare you to call Infinity "too easy", but that the definition of what we consider part of the group has grown to encompass a larger variety of experiences that have fewer expectations of the player, but also engender less support and loyalty as well. The end result is that the "average" wargame has changed.

This has benefited wargamers in a lot of ways. For instance, wargames are now covered by board gaming sites because the line has become more blurred, and it has lead to increased exposure and awareness. Online communities are seamlessly able to move from miniatures to board games without missing a beat. The hybrid experiences have added new players accustomed to the convenience, who demand (and more importantly purchase) conveniences, like premade terrain, plastic tokens, and play mats. I think wargamers would've always welcomed these things, and changes in manufacturing have made it more commonplace (MDF), so that could just be happenstance.

It hasn't been entirely pleasant, as the dilution of the wargaming community has lead to changing standards in behavior and expectations, and has resulted in games requiring conveniences rather than simply offering them. Similarly, due to the ease of making miniatures these days, new miniature games are popping up every other day on kickstarter (now with more Pacific Rim), and dying off just as suddenly, making the adoption of new wargames more fad based and temporary. Developers working on their second wave of figures now have to compete with the unrealistic promises of Kickstarter games still two years away. Wargames, unlike board games, require more time to build their community of players.

I've kind of lost my thread of thought here, but I guess I'm saying that while the wargaming community hasn't really grown that much (in my opinion), it bumps uglies with the board game community which has grown substantially in the past decade. This has affect wargaming in many ways, but because the community is so dedicated and insular, it hasn't completely been absorbed. The Dudes On a Board genre is already larger than wargaming, and it threatens to grow larger - possibly to the point where wargaming becomes a subset of it.

Sorry for the rambling. It's late and I'm tired, and I'm not completely sure that I'm making any sense.

 Eilif wrote:
Observe that in the past 2 years the company at the forefront of pre-painte games has brought out two well supported games with traidional-paintable-miniatures in Star Wars Legion and Runewars.
Not sure I'd consider Runewars well supported. Not lately. If there's no news on the unreleased boxes after Legion drops, I'm going to assume FFG killed the line.
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Easy E wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I also note that Easy E never seems to get this sort of vitriol for only posting the first paragraph of a rules review then linking to his blog for the rest of it.


I know. It makes me sad. I would rather have vitriol than apathy!

I see no problem with it. At least you're giving SOMETHING at that point, and a review should be a long and detailed enough read that it could merit an individual post somewhere. This gives absolutely nothing, and expects everything from the reader.

Related to "getting clicks", he could make more money usng the time to find and recycle cans in the ditch than getting clicks on his blog. I know from experience.


There's many valid reasons to not want to click random links on the internet beyond giving someone a tenth of a penny.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Seven Year War Afficianado






Chicago

 Sqorgar wrote:
At this point, the differentiation between board game and miniature war game is becoming increasingly blurred. I call it the "Dudes On a Board" genre. There are miniatures (possibly a lot of miniatures), but it is still played on a board. Even within that hybrid genre, there's a spectrum. For instance, Imperial Assault is more board game than miniatures game, while Walking Dead: All Out War is more miniatures game than board game (but there's still dudes and still a board).


I'd suggest that this is nothing new. There's always been alot of products you might crossover games. From "back in the day" through the present there have been many on both sides of the wargame/boardgame market: Legions of Steel, Space Hulk, Blood Berets, Battletech, Battlemasters, Heroquest, Heroscape, D&D miniatures, various clix games and many, many others.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some fast-play, indie gaming in the windy city.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/

Complete Guide to Brush Dipping.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2012/01/16/with-liberty-and-brush-dipping-for-a/l

My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page 
   
Made in us
Napoleonics Obsesser




MN

 Eilif wrote:
 Sqorgar wrote:
At this point, the differentiation between board game and miniature war game is becoming increasingly blurred. I call it the "Dudes On a Board" genre. There are miniatures (possibly a lot of miniatures), but it is still played on a board. Even within that hybrid genre, there's a spectrum. For instance, Imperial Assault is more board game than miniatures game, while Walking Dead: All Out War is more miniatures game than board game (but there's still dudes and still a board).


I'd suggest that this is nothing new. There's always been alot of products you might crossover games. From "back in the day" through the present there have been many on both sides of the wargame/boardgame market: Legions of Steel, Space Hulk, Blood Berets, Battletech, Battlemasters, Heroquest, Heroscape, D&D miniatures, various clix games and many, many others.


I agree. It is not new. Howevert, it FEELS (icky word!) like board games have been growing rapidly, and been dragging wargames reluctantly along with them.

 daedalus wrote:
 Easy E wrote:

Related to "getting clicks", he could make more money usng the time to find and recycle cans in the ditch than getting clicks on his blog. I know from experience.


There's many valid reasons to not want to click random links on the internet beyond giving someone a tenth of a penny.


Totally agree!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/15 16:31:35


Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Eilif wrote:
 Sqorgar wrote:
At this point, the differentiation between board game and miniature war game is becoming increasingly blurred. I call it the "Dudes On a Board" genre. There are miniatures (possibly a lot of miniatures), but it is still played on a board. Even within that hybrid genre, there's a spectrum. For instance, Imperial Assault is more board game than miniatures game, while Walking Dead: All Out War is more miniatures game than board game (but there's still dudes and still a board).
I'd suggest that this is nothing new. There's always been alot of products you might crossover games. From "back in the day" through the present there have been many on both sides of the wargame/boardgame market: Legions of Steel, Space Hulk, Blood Berets, Battletech, Battlemasters, Heroquest, Heroscape, D&D miniatures, various clix games and many, many others.
Yes, but the majority of those games were by Games Workshop. The rest were either marketed as toys (Heroscape, Battlemasters) or used cardboard standees or chits (Legions of Steel, Battletech) and were sort of more in line with the Avalon Hill type wargaming experience. At the time, I think board games were either seen as toys or a super niche hobbyist market like D&D or wargaming, and it's really only been in the past decade or so that board games have sort of crossed the threshold and become their own separate entity. Dudes On a Board has always been a thing, but now it is not only explicitly a thing, it is perhaps the most popular genre of board games, going by Kickstarter successes (I don't think they even make Ameritrash board games without miniatures anymore).

Basically, as manufacturing has gotten easier and cheaper, it has allowed board game manufacturers to create products that come closer to what has traditionally been an exclusively hobbyist market - so much so that CMON and FFG are creating miniature games using their board game development processes, while Games Workshop is creating board games using their miniature game development processes. Depending on how you squint, the Dudes On a Board genre can be considered either wargaming or board gaming, and sometimes both simultaneously. This has changed the market and the expectation for how wargames are created and presented to the players, and I think the popularity of this hybrid approach threatens to overshadow wargames as a separate entity.

I mean, what is the difference between a Dudes On a Board game and a miniature wargame these days? Figure assembly/painting, measured movement, and... ?
   
 
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