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 Lance845 wrote:
The standard imperial Aquila.

I don't get why people don't realize that the imperium is an oppressive fascist hell hole. Every symbol of the imperium is basically the swastika and the imperium itself is grinding forward on nazism looking for purity, hating the xenos and the abhuman and dragging people away to concentration camps to be killed or turned into weapons if they show any signs of abnormality.

Yea I was going to say the exact same thing.

This is the closest in game symbol to a swastika by a mile.

Perhaps do it upside down, or with only one wing if you want it to be defaced?

Or are you looking for something more simple?

Skulls could also work - they are officially part of the Imperiums symbols (remembering the emperors sacrifice), and using a reminder of the emperors sacrifice as a symbol of your sacrifice in a suicide squad is nicely heretical or radically pro imperial depending on point of view. Works for extreamists both ways.

You could give them varying ones - human for the above, alien (pro alien or as a threat), necron like ones, historical totenkopfs, orks.
Add a few suspiciously horned ones or nearly khonite ones and you have a bunch right on the edge.

Lance845 wrote:The standard imperial Aquila.

I mean the question is pretty clear:

hootoiv wrote: Surely there must be one, the symbol that is always agressive and anti-social

He wants to know what the Imperium regards as dangerous, something that threatens it and that it fought a war against, that you wear because of being a reprobate. He explicitly links to an article where a college student goes to serbia looking for the rush of being shot at and murdering an elderly bosnian woman. He wants to know, in the Imperium, what the kind of reprobates who join white supremacist militias would wear. I.e., wouldn't they wear chaos icons, or ork or necron, or possibly ancient human religious ones like a cross or crescent for the Catherics we know to have existed in 30k, something that represents a challenge to the Imperial order.

Lance845 wrote:I don't get why people don't realize that the imperium is an oppressive fascist hell hole. Every symbol of the imperium is basically the swastika and the imperium itself is grinding forward on nazism looking for purity, hating the xenos and the abhuman and dragging people away to concentration camps to be killed or turned into weapons if they show any signs of abnormality.

The Emperor and the space marines weren't unemployed veterans funded by industrialists to beat up and kill striking workers. That's what fascism is, did that happen in the Imperium? There was a depression, and doing business was hard, so business people used out of work soldiers to beat up workers, and because they used anti-semitism they didn't have to pay these mobs salaries, they just bought uniforms and cars for the parties. Does the Imperium have private capitalist companies? When the fascists took power, their function was to transfer government money, both taxes and what they looted from the communities they oppressed and murdered, to private companies for building factories with slave labor and enrichment of the owners.

Ok so it's political, it is very political for you to say that the Imperium is fascist, that fascism is when you wear a certain kind of boot or hat, because that pretends, and propagates the pretense, that hatred was weaponized for the benefit of people who owned I.G. Farben, Bayer, and Mercedez, and any other business in question.

pelicaniforce wrote:
The Emperor and the space marines weren't unemployed veterans funded by industrialists to beat up and kill striking workers. That's what fascism is, did that happen in the Imperium? There was a depression, and doing business was hard, so business people used out of work soldiers to beat up workers, and because they used anti-semitism they didn't have to pay these mobs salaries, they just bought uniforms and cars for the parties. Does the Imperium have private capitalist companies? When the fascists took power, their function was to transfer government money, both taxes and what they looted from the communities they oppressed and murdered, to private companies for building factories with slave labor and enrichment of the owners.

Ok so it's political, it is very political for you to say that the Imperium is fascist, that fascism is when you wear a certain kind of boot or hat, because that pretends, and propagates the pretense, that hatred was weaponized for the benefit of people who owned I.G. Farben, Bayer, and Mercedez, and any other business in question.

Dude you're description of fascism is entirely wrong. You described the rise of the Nazi party in Germany during the early 1900s. Fascism is this;

wikipedia wrote:Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism (replace "nationalism" with "imperialism"), characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

I've bolded all the bits where I think the Imperium can be said to be like this.

The Imperium is one of the most clear allegories in all of 40k.

Indeed, the Aquila is the symbol of the Imperium when it comes to Guardsmen. It's on the Cadian flak jackets. On their lasguns. On tanks. To me, the Aquila is the symbol of the Imperium.

Also the Imperium is, in my mind, Fascist. It also has many of the calling cards of Communism, regarding the ultimate control the Government has, but there's no implication that this is for the good of the people. It's done for the elite [Emperor / High Lords] and nothing is suffered that opposes that total domination.


The "heroes" see this as following their duty. Religious or otherwise, the Guardsmen are considered by themselves and the people of the Imperium to be honorable.

Nazis are considered [correctly] to be donkey-caves. As such, their symbols are regarded as belonging to donkey-caves. BECAUSE THEY LOST. Thankfully. If they'd won, symbols from other countries would have been considered wrong. Off the top of my head, the Star of David would likely hold the same revulsion from the common folk as the Swastika does now, because it would represent something considered lesser.


To find something that would compare in 40k, you'd have to find symbols of DEFEATED powers. Something like the defeated factions of the Religious wars, or from the Dark Age of Technology, or maybe the Men of Iron? The AI that tried to destroy the Imperium?

Something like that would be analogous. The symbol of a defeated enemy that wishes to rise again to overthrow the established order. Imagine a rogue Mechanicus force that bore the Iconography of the Iron Men? That's some Heresy for you.

Ultimate control? LOL do you guys even read the sourcebooks? the central government of the IoM has a VERY TENOUS control. Put simply so long as a planet fills it's quotas and worships the emperor they don't care what the planet does. Now some PLANETS in the IoM are likely facist hell holes, but there's proably also room for democratic Utopias. The central government doesn't care. they're results driven (to the point of being grimdark)

Force is the tool of the oppressor, and if so moved, any planet can be forced. Democratic or Anarchic, if anyone from the central government of the Imperium decides to look at your planet, you're doing what they say or you aren't going to live very long.

Ultimate control.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Lance845 wrote:The standard imperial Aquila.

I mean the question is pretty clear:

hootoiv wrote: Surely there must be one, the symbol that is always agressive and anti-social

He wants to know what the Imperium regards as dangerous, something that threatens it and that it fought a war against, that you wear because of being a reprobate. He explicitly links to an article where a college student goes to serbia looking for the rush of being shot at and murdering an elderly bosnian woman. He wants to know, in the Imperium, what the kind of reprobates who join white supremacist militias would wear. I.e., wouldn't they wear chaos icons, or ork or necron, or possibly ancient human religious ones like a cross or crescent for the Catherics we know to have existed in 30k, something that represents a challenge to the Imperial order.

He was asking about it from the perspective of a regiment made up of convicts who were forced into military servitude.

From the perspective of the regular citizenry of the Imperium the Aquila IS the Nazi symbol that represents agressive and anti-social behaviour. From the perspective of brain washed space marines, the inquisition, the religious zealot sisters of battle and the escalarchy. Yeah. It's a symbol of their pride in all their "good works".

Lance845 wrote:I don't get why people don't realize that the imperium is an oppressive fascist hell hole. Every symbol of the imperium is basically the swastika and the imperium itself is grinding forward on nazism looking for purity, hating the xenos and the abhuman and dragging people away to concentration camps to be killed or turned into weapons if they show any signs of abnormality.

The Emperor and the space marines weren't unemployed veterans funded by industrialists to beat up and kill striking workers. That's what fascism is, did that happen in the Imperium? There was a depression, and doing business was hard, so business people used out of work soldiers to beat up workers, and because they used anti-semitism they didn't have to pay these mobs salaries, they just bought uniforms and cars for the parties. Does the Imperium have private capitalist companies? When the fascists took power, their function was to transfer government money, both taxes and what they looted from the communities they oppressed and murdered, to private companies for building factories with slave labor and enrichment of the owners.

Ok so it's political, it is very political for you to say that the Imperium is fascist, that fascism is when you wear a certain kind of boot or hat, because that pretends, and propagates the pretense, that hatred was weaponized for the benefit of people who owned I.G. Farben, Bayer, and Mercedez, and any other business in question.

The imperium does weaponize hatred. It's mostly all it does. It suppresses, violently, any sign of thought that goes against that.

BrianDavion wrote:
Ultimate control? LOL do you guys even read the sourcebooks? the central government of the IoM has a VERY TENOUS control. Put simply so long as a planet fills it's quotas and worships the emperor they don't care what the planet does. Now some PLANETS in the IoM are likely facist hell holes, but there's proably also room for democratic Utopias. The central government doesn't care. they're results driven (to the point of being grimdark)

I think he was just simplifying with regards the word "government". What he meant was the ruling elite, in this case - the High Lords of Terra and prior to that the Emperor himself.

"You can think what you like as long as you don't disagree with us on these key things" is one of the hallmarks of a fascist state. In addition - a lot of fascist states operated under the pretense of democracy.

If you want to figure out if the IoM is a fascist hellhole, ask yourself what would happen if you in any way openly criticised the Emperor or High Lords or if you disagreed with a facet of the Imperium in any way. If the answer is die slowly, die quickly, get lobotomised or otherwise tortured/enslaved/killed then yea it's a fascist hellhole alright.

Of course this is only our current understanding of fascism. The meaning and relevance of words like this might have changed in 38,000 years. I mean they have in 500.

Well would the aquilla "may" be the equivalent of the swastika from our point of perspective. but if the nazis won wouldn't some allied symbol be their version of it?

id say they would probably be using some sort of rebellion/chaos like icon. something that is opposing the status quo.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

wikipedia wrote:Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism (replace "nationalism" with "imperialism"), characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

I've bolded all the bits where I think the Imperium can be said to be like this.

The Imperium doesn't have “control of industry and commerce” that much, does it?
The strange thing about the Imperium is that the “central government” has some very very strong diktats on some things, but leaves a LOT of leeway on most things. I don't think we have real world governments that had this approach.
Also there is the fact that unlike in the usual fascism that we have on earth, where there basically always is one “supreme leader”, there is no supreme leader of the Imperium (in practice, because the Emperor doesn't actually rule). It's all governed by a bunch of different organizations with conflicting interests, as illustrated by the composition of the High Lords.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

wikipedia wrote:Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism (replace "nationalism" with "imperialism"), characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

I've bolded all the bits where I think the Imperium can be said to be like this.

The Imperium doesn't have “control of industry and commerce” that much, does it?
The strange thing about the Imperium is that the “central government” has some very very strong diktats on some things, but leaves a LOT of leeway on most things. I don't think we have real world governments that had this approach.
Also there is the fact that unlike in the usual fascism that we have on earth, where there basically always is one “supreme leader”, there is no supreme leader of the Imperium (in practice, because the Emperor doesn't actually rule). It's all governed by a bunch of different organizations with conflicting interests, as illustrated by the composition of the High Lords.

They might for sure have full control on Terra and any near by systems. but from what i understand the imperium at large is mostly loosy goosy about how you actually govern your own planet so long as you pay your taxes.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The Imperium doesn't have “control of industry and commerce” that much, does it?
The strange thing about the Imperium is that the “central government” has some very very strong diktats on some things, but leaves a LOT of leeway on most things. I don't think we have real world governments that had this approach.
Also there is the fact that unlike in the usual fascism that we have on earth, where there basically always is one “supreme leader”, there is no supreme leader of the Imperium (in practice, because the Emperor doesn't actually rule). It's all governed by a bunch of different organizations with conflicting interests, as illustrated by the composition of the High Lords.

You raise an interesting point - I think the Imperium has at least some control of industry and commerce by virtue of the fact that innovation and development is forbidden. Certain items (rare artifacts, weapons etc) are literally owned by the Imperium and not the person who uncovered/found them. Industry seems to revolve around producing weapons, munitions and other supplies to feed the war effort of the Imperium as a whole. Hive worlds are Imperium owned manufacturing centres.

The Imperium is EXACTLY like the ancient Roman Empire. What you have described - leeway on many things as long as you pay your taxes is exactly how they operated, even to the point of allowing conquered nations to retain their own gods. They literally absorbed them into the Roman pantheon and allowed the worship of "Aliasiagae" counts as "Aphrodite" for example.

I'd say the Emperor was the supreme leader of the Imperium and a big part of the reason for it falling apart is the infighting to assign a new supreme leader (aren't they called "Guillimans" until, well, Guilliman?).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The Imperium doesn't have “control of industry and commerce” that much, does it?
The strange thing about the Imperium is that the “central government” has some very very strong diktats on some things, but leaves a LOT of leeway on most things. I don't think we have real world governments that had this approach.
Also there is the fact that unlike in the usual fascism that we have on earth, where there basically always is one “supreme leader”, there is no supreme leader of the Imperium (in practice, because the Emperor doesn't actually rule). It's all governed by a bunch of different organizations with conflicting interests, as illustrated by the composition of the High Lords.

You raise an interesting point - I think the Imperium has at least some control of industry and commerce by virtue of the fact that innovation and development is forbidden. Certain items (rare artifacts, weapons etc) are literally owned by the Imperium and not the person who uncovered/found them. Industry seems to revolve around producing weapons, munitions and other supplies to feed the war effort of the Imperium as a whole. Hive worlds are Imperium owned manufacturing centres.

The Imperium is EXACTLY like the ancient Roman Empire. What you have described - leeway on many things as long as you pay your taxes is exactly how they operated, even to the point of allowing conquered nations to retain their own gods. They literally absorbed them into the Roman pantheon and allowed the worship of "Aliasiagae" counts as "Aphrodite" for example.

I'd say the Emperor was the supreme leader of the Imperium and a big part of the reason for it falling apart is the infighting to assign a new supreme leader (aren't they called "Guillimans" until, well, Guilliman?).

Or the united states. Isn't the imperial method of governance just a federation?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The Imperium doesn't have “control of industry and commerce” that much, does it?
The strange thing about the Imperium is that the “central government” has some very very strong diktats on some things, but leaves a LOT of leeway on most things. I don't think we have real world governments that had this approach.
Also there is the fact that unlike in the usual fascism that we have on earth, where there basically always is one “supreme leader”, there is no supreme leader of the Imperium (in practice, because the Emperor doesn't actually rule). It's all governed by a bunch of different organizations with conflicting interests, as illustrated by the composition of the High Lords.

You raise an interesting point - I think the Imperium has at least some control of industry and commerce by virtue of the fact that innovation and development is forbidden. Certain items (rare artifacts, weapons etc) are literally owned by the Imperium and not the person who uncovered/found them. Industry seems to revolve around producing weapons, munitions and other supplies to feed the war effort of the Imperium as a whole. Hive worlds are Imperium owned manufacturing centres.

The Imperium is EXACTLY like the ancient Roman Empire. What you have described - leeway on many things as long as you pay your taxes is exactly how they operated, even to the point of allowing conquered nations to retain their own gods. They literally absorbed them into the Roman pantheon and allowed the worship of "Aliasiagae" counts as "Aphrodite" for example.

I'd say the Emperor was the supreme leader of the Imperium and a big part of the reason for it falling apart is the infighting to assign a new supreme leader (aren't they called "Guillimans" until, well, Guilliman?).

mmm outside of a few things a lot of the certain items thing is more the admech isnt it? arent they mostly their own thing will still being part of the imperium?

The eight-pointed star of Chaos is a good starting point.

I think it would vary based on regions.

Near Ultramar? Tau, Dark Eldar, Genestealer Cult, Necrons, Iron Warriors
Eye of Terror? Any Chaos Warband mark
Maelstrom? Red Corsairs or Astral Claws

It sounds like you want a symbol that indicates a certain distance from societally acceptable norms, something that your generic Imperial citizen might find a bit dodgy, but not something that would get the wearer executed on sight. In that case, I'd say that the Chaos Star and any obvious xenos symbol would be right out. As would any widely-accepted Imperial symbol such as the Aquilla.

I'd probably go for the pre-Heresy version of the Eye of Horus:


It's not overtly a Chaos symbol (unlike the post-Heresy version used by the Black Legion), and nobody but Roboute Guilliman himself or an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor is likely to recognise it in the 'modern day' Imperium. Anyone else would just think it was some sort of hiveworld gang sign. You'll note House Escher of Necromunda has a rather similar badge. But it's also clearly not an Imperial symbol. It also, of course, has the same sort of ancient feel as the swastika, being ultimately a relic of a pre-Imperial Terran culture.

It also lets your guys say "We're the Sons of the Warmaster," and then share a knowing look and a nasty grin and clarify that they of course mean Macharius or Slaydo or Solon or some other Imperial Warmaster. Definitely not Horus. No sir! (Just like certain people today might claim that they're not Nazis, no, just people who are really, really proud of their Northern European heritage...)

 Lance845 wrote:
The standard imperial Aquila.

I don't get why people don't realize that the imperium is an oppressive fascist hell hole. Every symbol of the imperium is basically the swastika and the imperium itself is grinding forward on nazism looking for purity, hating the xenos and the abhuman and dragging people away to concentration camps to be killed or turned into weapons if they show any signs of abnormality.

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

Give me a more positive symbol from the main factions of the setting.

Thing is, the imperium is a horrible, horrible place. But all of the alternatives are even more horrible. Yes, even the Tau. And especially the Eldar. The other factions go without saying.

I feel that the Imperial version of a swastika would more likely be a symbol associated with Vandires government in the Age of Apostasy. Basically the symbol of a government that ursurped the institutions of the imperium and created an even more brutal regime than the one already in place, something that is both a hated and embassesing history for the Imperium.

In-universe, I don't think the question makes sense. Being able to openly avow the sort of socially outrageous beliefs as suggested in the blog article you mention (this one, was it? https://johnnyantora.com/2013/11/07/marco-casagrande-the-mostar-road-hitchhiker/) rather relies in the society you're part of tolerating things that otherwise upsets/angers/disgusts it. The Imperium of Man doesn't really have that. If you go around wearing the star of chaos, you'll get killed. If you wear the eye of Horus, you might get away with it - until you come across someone who knows what it is - then you get killed. Same goes for references to Goge Vandire, I'd imagine. If the Savlar Chem-Dogs are penal regiments, then they're in there for "secular" or minor theological crimes - theft, assault, murder, accidental failure to tithe or interrupting official religious practices. More severe theological crimes - refusal to follow orders, blasphemy, heresy or consorting with the Ruinous Powers - is going to get even them an instant death sentence.

Do you think the Nazi legacy will last 38,000 years imto the future? Considering most people do not know it is a budist sun symbol i figure it has faded into the past.

But....people do understand that, and don't care because one it's the best system in the setting right now because it's grim dark and two it's a toy soldiers game in make believe land.

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
Do you think the Nazi legacy will last 38,000 years imto the future? Considering most people do not know it is a budist sun symbol i figure it has faded into the past.

Pretty sure this has nothing to do with op's question.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
In-universe, I don't think the question makes sense. Being able to openly avow the sort of socially outrageous beliefs as suggested in the blog article you mention (this one, was it? https://johnnyantora.com/2013/11/07/marco-casagrande-the-mostar-road-hitchhiker/) rather relies in the society you're part of tolerating things that otherwise upsets/angers/disgusts it. The Imperium of Man doesn't really have that. If you go around wearing the star of chaos, you'll get killed. If you wear the eye of Horus, you might get away with it - until you come across someone who knows what it is - then you get killed. Same goes for references to Goge Vandire, I'd imagine. If the Savlar Chem-Dogs are penal regiments, then they're in there for "secular" or minor theological crimes - theft, assault, murder, accidental failure to tithe or interrupting official religious practices. More severe theological crimes - refusal to follow orders, blasphemy, heresy or consorting with the Ruinous Powers - is going to get even them an instant death sentence.

As I see it, this.

To openly rebel against the Imperium is not tolerated like we tolerate things here. You can get away with chanting hatespeech, having Nazi symbols, and yeah, you'll get strange looks even in the most open of environments, and publicly shunned in most, bit you probably won't be killed for it (unless you REALLY mess up).

Compare to the Imperium where not only is knowledge of heretical symbols banned by the state, but those same symbols can metaphysically alter the world around you, and it's no surprising that holding the 8 pointed star would get you summarily executed. Defacing the Aquila would be a punishable offence, from what I remember in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, and probably punishable by death.

If your guys were to have a symbol of some kind, it wouldn't be any we've seen in 40k before. Anything Chaotic, Xenos, or defacing an Imperial sigil would be grounds for execution, not merely penal service. Religious crime has a zero tolerance policy in the Imperium, especially for guardsmen, who have very little in the way of political clout.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
In-universe, I don't think the question makes sense. Being able to openly avow the sort of socially outrageous beliefs as suggested in the blog article you mention (this one, was it? https://johnnyantora.com/2013/11/07/marco-casagrande-the-mostar-road-hitchhiker/) rather relies in the society you're part of tolerating things that otherwise upsets/angers/disgusts it. The Imperium of Man doesn't really have that. If you go around wearing the star of chaos, you'll get killed. If you wear the eye of Horus, you might get away with it - until you come across someone who knows what it is - then you get killed. Same goes for references to Goge Vandire, I'd imagine. If the Savlar Chem-Dogs are penal regiments, then they're in there for "secular" or minor theological crimes - theft, assault, murder, accidental failure to tithe or interrupting official religious practices. More severe theological crimes - refusal to follow orders, blasphemy, heresy or consorting with the Ruinous Powers - is going to get even them an instant death sentence.

As I see it, this.

To openly rebel against the Imperium is not tolerated like we tolerate things here. You can get away with chanting hatespeech, having Nazi symbols, and yeah, you'll get strange looks even in the most open of environments, and publicly shunned in most, bit you probably won't be killed for it (unless you REALLY mess up).

Compare to the Imperium where not only is knowledge of heretical symbols banned by the state, but those same symbols can metaphysically alter the world around you, and it's no surprising that holding the 8 pointed star would get you summarily executed. Defacing the Aquila would be a punishable offence, from what I remember in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, and probably punishable by death.

If your guys were to have a symbol of some kind, it wouldn't be any we've seen in 40k before. Anything Chaotic, Xenos, or defacing an Imperial sigil would be grounds for execution, not merely penal service. Religious crime has a zero tolerance policy in the Imperium, especially for guardsmen, who have very little in the way of political clout.

Mmmmm i think in cases you can get away with your life even if you worship some other dety or ideology. iirc warrior woman from last chancers is in the last chancers because she worshiped some unsanctioned religion. im going to assume straight chaos is a no go but some other idealogy or religion might almost be ok (enough not to get shot in the head)

I like the Sons of Horus pre-Heresy symbol idea, that is exactly the kind of symbol that works for what the OP wants. Unfortunately it would be incredibly obscure by the time of 40k due to 10,000 years of state suppression of the Traitor Legion identities. I suppose it is possible that the Savlar members in question hailed from a world that was brought into compliance by the SoH, and somehow retained this cultural awareness through the centuries. The Imperium is a big enough place for it to happen. Then it really would be a in-joke, so long as no Inquisitors in-the-know stroll past

I don't know of any other, similar symbols, except other Traitor Legions. Perhaps one of the symbols of the Legions that changed identity, like the Dusk Raiders or Warhounds would be better, because then it is even more obscure, and also associated with the Loyalist components of those Legions.

The Aquila is poor for this, because it doesn't subvert the Imperial norm in any way, and that is the goal here. See below.

Desubot wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
In-universe, I don't think the question makes sense. Being able to openly avow the sort of socially outrageous beliefs as suggested in the blog article you mention (this one, was it? https://johnnyantora.com/2013/11/07/marco-casagrande-the-mostar-road-hitchhiker/) rather relies in the society you're part of tolerating things that otherwise upsets/angers/disgusts it. The Imperium of Man doesn't really have that. If you go around wearing the star of chaos, you'll get killed. If you wear the eye of Horus, you might get away with it - until you come across someone who knows what it is - then you get killed. Same goes for references to Goge Vandire, I'd imagine. If the Savlar Chem-Dogs are penal regiments, then they're in there for "secular" or minor theological crimes - theft, assault, murder, accidental failure to tithe or interrupting official religious practices. More severe theological crimes - refusal to follow orders, blasphemy, heresy or consorting with the Ruinous Powers - is going to get even them an instant death sentence.

As I see it, this.

To openly rebel against the Imperium is not tolerated like we tolerate things here. You can get away with chanting hatespeech, having Nazi symbols, and yeah, you'll get strange looks even in the most open of environments, and publicly shunned in most, bit you probably won't be killed for it (unless you REALLY mess up).

Compare to the Imperium where not only is knowledge of heretical symbols banned by the state, but those same symbols can metaphysically alter the world around you, and it's no surprising that holding the 8 pointed star would get you summarily executed. Defacing the Aquila would be a punishable offence, from what I remember in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, and probably punishable by death.

If your guys were to have a symbol of some kind, it wouldn't be any we've seen in 40k before. Anything Chaotic, Xenos, or defacing an Imperial sigil would be grounds for execution, not merely penal service. Religious crime has a zero tolerance policy in the Imperium, especially for guardsmen, who have very little in the way of political clout.

Mmmmm i think in cases you can get away with your life even if you worship some other dety or ideology. iirc warrior woman from last chancers is in the last chancers because she worshiped some unsanctioned religion. im going to assume straight chaos is a no go but some other idealogy or religion might almost be ok (enough not to get shot in the head)

Yeah, I think aside from Chaos (which is the Archenemy for a reason) and any other symbol associated with a warp taint, and certain major xenos faction symbols (basically the main factions), the Imperium is unlikely to immediately execute you. They are, after all, fairly pragmatic in their approach, and "summary execution" is often commuted into "worked to death", be it manual labour, conscription into the Penal Legions, or being lobotomised into a servitor. Seeing as the Savlar Chem-dogs are raised from a Penal World and are members of the Penal Legions, they are already condemned to death. If they don't do anything dangerous enough to warrant instant execution (like Chaos), there isn't any reason to waste a perfectly good combatant because they are wearing a subversive symbol- they are still going to die for the Emperor in some suicidal combat role.

An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The Imperium doesn't have “control of industry and commerce” that much, does it?
The strange thing about the Imperium is that the “central government” has some very very strong diktats on some things, but leaves a LOT of leeway on most things. I don't think we have real world governments that had this approach.
Also there is the fact that unlike in the usual fascism that we have on earth, where there basically always is one “supreme leader”, there is no supreme leader of the Imperium (in practice, because the Emperor doesn't actually rule). It's all governed by a bunch of different organizations with conflicting interests, as illustrated by the composition of the High Lords.

You raise an interesting point - I think the Imperium has at least some control of industry and commerce by virtue of the fact that innovation and development is forbidden. Certain items (rare artifacts, weapons etc) are literally owned by the Imperium and not the person who uncovered/found them. Industry seems to revolve around producing weapons, munitions and other supplies to feed the war effort of the Imperium as a whole. Hive worlds are Imperium owned manufacturing centres.

The Imperium is EXACTLY like the ancient Roman Empire. What you have described - leeway on many things as long as you pay your taxes is exactly how they operated, even to the point of allowing conquered nations to retain their own gods. They literally absorbed them into the Roman pantheon and allowed the worship of "Aliasiagae" counts as "Aphrodite" for example.

I'd say the Emperor was the supreme leader of the Imperium and a big part of the reason for it falling apart is the infighting to assign a new supreme leader (aren't they called "Guillimans" until, well, Guilliman?).

It is basically an authoritarian oligarchy that is forced to rule through a feudal system due to the scale and poor communications of the Imperium. As mentioned, there are a few strict empire-wide rules, such as psyker policy, the general principles of mutants being bad, and tithes for planets, but then there is a light touch in most ways. Many planets are probably quite egalitarian, so long as you are not born a mutant, a psyker, or follow and anti-Imperial creed. So there are some absolute restrictions, but a lot of planetary variations. Therefore it has a lot of elements of fascism and communism and utilitarianism, but also imperialism and colonialism and feudalism and various other political philosophies. Like everything in 40k, it is nice and complex and sandbox. The overall Imperium is designed as a satirical representation of fascism, but also other extremist philosophies, so it cannot really be pidgeonholed into any one of them (except being broadly authoritarian). This allows it to satirise a broad range effectively.

It is still a disgustingly horrible state by our standards, but fairly average for 40k, and the 40k setting actually manages to justify it to an extent- that is part of the satire, the lengths they have to go to to justify an authoritarian hellhole. Literal daemons trying to eat everyone's souls for example

In fact the right world in the IoM might be reasonably pleasent, if it was prosperous, the government was capable and competant, course those worlds tend to be the ones prone to SUDDENLY DEAMONS

BrianDavion wrote:
In fact the right world in the IoM might be reasonably pleasent, if it was prosperous, the government was capable and competant, course those worlds tend to be the ones prone to SUDDENLY DEAMONS

To fair, it is still only pleasant if you are the right kind of person- a sufficiently pure human, and some basic freedoms are always restricted, like freedom of religion

What about symbols representing pre-unification nations on Terra? Think Hy Brazil or what have you? Symbols that have faded in importance, might not get you shot, but in some way represent a subversion of imperial rule, and a return of a previous world order?