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 Arachnofiend wrote:
Ignoring the fact that that's an illegal list, I think Nick's definition of spam might be different from yours; I doubt he would consider that list spam because while it includes a lot of mortars it's certainly not entirely mortars, and the Space Marine part of the list does a great job of addressing the weaknesses that an actual mortar spam list would have (namely a desperate need for screens and a way to interact effectively with the fight phase).

I'm not sure how you could argue that list is *not* spam. It contains multiple different detachments, sure. But each one essentially duplicates the same thing over and over. If that's not spam then you're using a definition I've never heard of before.

Note: I am not condoning or condemning spam per se. However, it is quite clear all the Adepticon top tables were dominated by it, Nick & Andrew's lists included.

Oh, just so everyone is on the same page, this was Nick N's Adepticon list (poxwalker farm):
.

MVBrandt wrote:
I don't know how many ways there are to say that the top players are not top because of their lists. The same people continue to do well simply playing within the framework the game presents as the meta by being exceptional at the combination of above and on table skill, sound problem solving, the affability and sportsmanship to not get blackballed, and generally just being excellent players.

I don't think people groan about spam because top players frequently use it in their lists. The problem with spam as perceived by non-tournament goers is that these spam lists become net lists and trickle down to the local gaming community. There clearly are no good data or information about whether this problem is real or not. In my personal experience that's not been a problem because if someone is bringing power lists to "friendly" games they'll just have trouble finding games and either shift their lists or find a group of players that want to play the game the same way. However, some areas don't have a very deep player pool so differing attitudes about the game is about will cause a bigger problem for everyone's enjoyment.

The area where a negative reaction to spam might be an issue is for continued growth of tournaments. If you can't convince players who want to game against a cohesive, themed army to participate, you're limiting the pool of players who want to play in events. I think the best way around that is the continued growth of narrative and friendly events. The bigger events are already seeing growth due to expanding demand for that experience. Giving people the option to pick what kind of organized experience they have will solve some of the groans about spam.

It is still spam no matter how you slice it at the end of the day.

 Primark G wrote:
It is still spam no matter how you slice it at the end of the day.

It's either a problem that has consequences that needs to be addressed or it's just a fact of warhammer life that has no impact on player participation. If it's the latter we can probably stop making the "SPAM!!" posts after every big event. Continuing to make those posts would be the equivalent of rushing to the computer every morning to note that the sun rose in the East.

I’m not big on house rules to nerf army lists. My advice is learn how to beat it consistently. My point was call a spade a spade.

bogalubov wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
It is still spam no matter how you slice it at the end of the day.

It's either a problem that has consequences that needs to be addressed or it's just a fact of warhammer life that has no impact on player participation. If it's the latter we can probably stop making the "SPAM!!" posts after every big event. Continuing to make those posts would be the equivalent of rushing to the computer every morning to note that the sun rose in the East.

The latter really.
The spam comments mostly come from casual players complaining that tournament players bring the best units and build redundancy by bringing copies in a tournament list.

Its like complaining your football club in a tournament fields its best players.

If we're mad about spam, would y'all attend a tournament that limited armies to three units of the same dataslate? Except Troops. Nobody wants to turn people away so maybe tax a few command points for spam violations?

The problem is the rules for other units really....Is to many units that are basically not worth bringing this edition---starting right at Marines and Chaos Space marines....they need fixed.

Cheap/low point units are way to efficient compared to, to many other options esp since they offer cheap CP.

bogalubov wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
I don't know how many ways there are to say that the top players are not top because of their lists. The same people continue to do well simply playing within the framework the game presents as the meta by being exceptional at the combination of above and on table skill, sound problem solving, the affability and sportsmanship to not get blackballed, and generally just being excellent players.

I don't think people groan about spam because top players frequently use it in their lists. The problem with spam as perceived by non-tournament goers is that these spam lists become net lists and trickle down to the local gaming community. There clearly are no good data or information about whether this problem is real or not. In my personal experience that's not been a problem because if someone is bringing power lists to "friendly" games they'll just have trouble finding games and either shift their lists or find a group of players that want to play the game the same way. However, some areas don't have a very deep player pool so differing attitudes about the game is about will cause a bigger problem for everyone's enjoyment.

The area where a negative reaction to spam might be an issue is for continued growth of tournaments. If you can't convince players who want to game against a cohesive, themed army to participate, you're limiting the pool of players who want to play in events. I think the best way around that is the continued growth of narrative and friendly events. The bigger events are already seeing growth due to expanding demand for that experience. Giving people the option to pick what kind of organized experience they have will solve some of the groans about spam.

First your post is 100% correct. You don't need validation of course but you nailed it. Two things.

A "cohesive themed army" use to be a thing at tournaments. It was called "Composition", it was a disaster. It went the way of the dinosaurs. Wanted to point that out.

Lastly, spam is in the eye of the beholder.

Spam is a thing but we don’t need to go so far as to start praising it.

chaos45 wrote:
The problem is the rules for other units really....Is to many units that are basically not worth bringing this edition---starting right at Marines and Chaos Space marines....they need fixed.

Cheap/low point units are way to efficient compared to, to many other options esp since they offer cheap CP.

I think a better way to put this is with perspective over time.

The game used to be a "troops game". If you will, most armies were "meat and potatoes" of their core faction. This includes chaos marines and of course vanilla marines. I honestly don't believe that they are "weak" today but rather they are the same as they have always been but there was an elephant in the room no one acknowledges: Special Characters. Due to synergy of their abilities most "special characters" don't just break the mold they atomize it. When combined with specific elites the synergy catapults certain options vastly ahead.

There was an age in 40K where NO special characters were allowed in Tournaments.. with good reason. The reason can be seen in any list from recent tournaments. When you have the option you'd be a fool to not take the majorly over powered and synergistic named characters. But GW wanted folks to buy special characters, so, that changed from no special characters to pack all of them that you can and reap those ridiculous synergies.

One of the things that chaps my hide about current 40k is the ability, due to complete moronic lack of forethought by GW, to make certain models unhitable in close and ranged combat... I am looking at you nurgle... This wasn't intended to be sure but GW hands out the negative modifiers like candy but the buffs like Scrooge or the food at Oliver Twist's workhouse. That coupled with the result of copy pasting without understand WHY rules worked the way they worked in 2nd results in smart folks being able to make unhitable and unshootable nurgle demon. Outrageous... special character by the way.. yet again.

TOs could throw a massive wrench into most army lists by banning special characters. The power level across the board drops. Also put back in 7+ to hit rules to prevent gaming the modifiers and gives a minuscule but possible chance to still hit or shoot.

I'll beat the drum of no special characters one last time by pointing out that army list on this page above. How many special characters? Abuse of synergy. Yeah.

 silashand wrote:


I am also under the impression he was the one who won the Nova Open with Kurov's Aquilla on a Primaris Psyker (again illegal and for the same reason).

Impressive he took a relic from a codex that wasn't released at the time of NOVA

 elphilo wrote:

 silashand wrote:


I am also under the impression he was the one who won the Nova Open with Kurov's Aquilla on a Primaris Psyker (again illegal and for the same reason).

Impressive he took a relic from a codex that wasn't released at the time of NOVA

It was also impressive that he did so with a completely different name... and he turned me into a newt!

 frgsinwntr wrote:

 elphilo wrote:

 silashand wrote:


I am also under the impression he was the one who won the Nova Open with Kurov's Aquilla on a Primaris Psyker (again illegal and for the same reason).

Impressive he took a relic from a codex that wasn't released at the time of NOVA

It was also impressive that he did so with a completely different name... and he turned me into a newt!

Did you get better though?

 elphilo wrote:

 frgsinwntr wrote:

 elphilo wrote:

 silashand wrote:


I am also under the impression he was the one who won the Nova Open with Kurov's Aquilla on a Primaris Psyker (again illegal and for the same reason).

Impressive he took a relic from a codex that wasn't released at the time of NOVA

It was also impressive that he did so with a completely different name... and he turned me into a newt!

Did you get better though?

Anyone have the list Jessica Bowman used for Necrons?

 frgsinwntr wrote:

 elphilo wrote:

 silashand wrote:


I am also under the impression he was the one who won the Nova Open with Kurov's Aquilla on a Primaris Psyker (again illegal and for the same reason).

Impressive he took a relic from a codex that wasn't released at the time of NOVA

It was also impressive that he did so with a completely different name... and he turned me into a newt!

He did have an illegal army list.

 frgsinwntr wrote:
It was also impressive that he did so with a completely different name... and he turned me into a newt!

Apologies then. That was what was reported in the other thread. I do not recall anyone correcting it there so figured it was accurate.

 Primark G wrote:

He did have an illegal army list.

Which was the point of my comment. The specifics may have been incorrect since I just pulled the data from a different thread, but the fact that he attended two major events with illegal lists is still valid.

What is the discrepancy in allowing him to win one tournament, and him "self disqualifying" in another, for seemingly the same infraction, an illegal list?

We all know many of the bigger tourneys don't have the spine to eject someone for not complying by the rules. It constantly gets swept under. Illegal list? No problem, well we can just rationalize away 3 pts over here, an extra bolt pistol over there, as long as it's a golden boy, it's all good...

In two major tourneys, to have an illegal list is either outright cheating, or at the very worst, among the sloppiest of listbuilding.

No wonder these try hards try so hard. They just get either rewarded or slapped on the wrist. Saying someone self disqualified is like saying oh sorry, I cheated most of my previous opponents, but it's all good, because I can see my mistake, now that it's been pointed out to the world.

perrin23860 wrote:
What is the discrepancy in allowing him to win one tournament, and him "self disqualifying" in another, for seemingly the same infraction, an illegal list?

We all know many of the bigger tourneys don't have the spine to eject someone for not complying by the rules. It constantly gets swept under. Illegal list? No problem, well we can just rationalize away 3 pts over here, an extra bolt pistol over there, as long as it's a golden boy, it's all good...

In two major tourneys, to have an illegal list is either outright cheating, or at the very worst, among the sloppiest of listbuilding.

No wonder these try hards try so hard. They just get either rewarded or slapped on the wrist. Saying someone self disqualified is like saying oh sorry, I cheated most of my previous opponents, but it's all good, because I can see my mistake, now that it's been pointed out to the world.

You are bringing your own post... off topic? Maybe create a new thread where you can...

back on topic... I really liked the variety. I'm thinking the terrain had a big impact on the overall winners/losers of the event. Sadly they had no stream... i was hoping to watch some great games like they did for NOVA and LVO.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

valdier wrote:
Anyone have the list Jessica Bowman used for Necrons?

I think if you go into the BCP app you can find it if you pay a small fee?

Edited by RiTides

Pretty sure the results of adepticon are on topic. I'm thinking of an ostrich meme in response, but I digress that would be off topic...

I too was glad they chose to use true line of sight instead of this abstract line of sight blocking first level terrain that's out there. Much prefer wysiwyg in my terrain, but that a personal preference. It was definitely a shooters environment.

perrin23860 wrote:
Pretty sure the results of adepticon are on topic. I'm thinking of an ostrich meme in response, but I digress that would be off topic...

I too was glad they chose to use true line of sight instead of this abstract line of sight blocking first level terrain that's out there. Much prefer wysiwyg in my terrain, but that a personal preference. It was definitely a shooters environment.

totally agree. 3rd ed had lots of weird abstract levels... and that was only for area terrain but most people, except dakka user Ghaz it seems and myself, noticed most terrain wasn't supposed to be areas. I digress... are there plans for a live stream next year?

 frgsinwntr wrote:

perrin23860 wrote:
Pretty sure the results of adepticon are on topic. I'm thinking of an ostrich meme in response, but I digress that would be off topic...

I too was glad they chose to use true line of sight instead of this abstract line of sight blocking first level terrain that's out there. Much prefer wysiwyg in my terrain, but that a personal preference. It was definitely a shooters environment.

totally agree. 3rd ed had lots of weird abstract levels... and that was only for area terrain but most people, except dakka user Ghaz it seems and myself, noticed most terrain wasn't supposed to be areas. I digress... are there plans for a live stream next year?

However area terrain rules are much better at actually representing what they are supposed to be. TLOS SUCKS in making playable terrain that actually makes sense.