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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The board we use has lots of LoS blocking terrain. It almost always to my
Disadvantage since it means can't fire my army at his whilst he can shoot mine. You get vicious choke points. Your army gets slowed down by area cover. When we play on the normal 6 x 4 boards with a load of craters I kill more stuff.

Iron Warriors can't be routed by shooting. That's amazing.

You can't have that conversation. They believe they have balanced and fluffy armies. They would see it as an attempt to gain an unfair advantage.

Plus in a lot of cases i run out of heavy support slots. I can't take two heavy squads, Deredeo, both Sicarans and the plasma press even if I had the points to do so. At 4K you are basically forced to buy elites and troops which puts me at a disadvantage since Ultra infantry are rubbish. What is the point of spending 280 points on a tax Squad. It will never make its points back, it Contributes nothing to the army.

I don't see how lots of LOS blocking terrain work to your disadvantage considering you describe having large CC blocks for your all infantry army, and your bolter squads can hide an score without worrying too much.

Tbh, I don't think sicarians are all that, I sold mine a while ago and havent missed them, try dropping them and throwing in something to use as Fulmentarus for a game or two, I wish I had them for my IW. lol typical of Ultras to steal an idea and improve on it

Also maybe look at allies, Ultras used human auxilaries a alot, they can provide some cheap scoring units as well as heavy artillery to help bolster your back line. Can you give me a list of your Infantry ultra list? That will maybe help identify places where you can work on your list building.

agurus1 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The board we use has lots of LoS blocking terrain. It almost always to my
Disadvantage since it means can't fire my army at his whilst he can shoot mine. You get vicious choke points. Your army gets slowed down by area cover. When we play on the normal 6 x 4 boards with a load of craters I kill more stuff.

Iron Warriors can't be routed by shooting. That's amazing.

You can't have that conversation. They believe they have balanced and fluffy armies. They would see it as an attempt to gain an unfair advantage.

Plus in a lot of cases i run out of heavy support slots. I can't take two heavy squads, Deredeo, both Sicarans and the plasma press even if I had the points to do so. At 4K you are basically forced to buy elites and troops which puts me at a disadvantage since Ultra infantry are rubbish. What is the point of spending 280 points on a tax Squad. It will never make its points back, it Contributes nothing to the army.

I don't see how lots of LOS blocking terrain work to your disadvantage considering you describe having large CC blocks for your all infantry army, and your bolter squads can hide an score without worrying too much.

Tbh, I don't think sicarians are all that, I sold mine a while ago and havent missed them, try dropping them and throwing in something to use as Fulmentarus for a game or two, I wish I had them for my IW. lol typical of Ultras to steal an idea and improve on it

Also maybe look at allies, Ultras used human auxilaries a alot, they can provide some cheap scoring units as well as heavy artillery to help bolster your back line. Can you give me a list of your Infantry ultra list? That will maybe help identify places where you can work on your list building.

Because its blocks my supporting fire whilst a more mobile army can play wack a mole with my units via outflank, dreadclaws and storm eagles. Plus it blocks LOS on things like quad guns. My plan had been to plasma pred them in one game but the board essentially became a fortress with a huge killing ground between me and being able to shoot at them. My army needs to be able to soften the foe before the charge.

Versus the NL it was:

Praetor with paragon (with sword breachers)

Legion Herald (with other sword breacher)

MoS (with lascannon team)

10 Invictari in Phobos

20 Sword Breacher with fist

20 sword breacher with fist

20 tac with fist

20 tac with fist

10 volkite rifles

10 vokite rifles

2 contemptor with fist. One with assault. One with las.

Sicaran Venator

Deredeo

5 man lascannon team


Versus the DG it was:

Praetor (with sword vets)

2 x 20 tacticals with fists

10 meltaguns

20 volkite rifles

10 veterans with swords

10 Kata in a Spartan

Deredeo with auto and missiles

Plasma Predator squadron (3) with lascannons

Ok so first things first, lose the venator and the lascannon team. Venator really only worth it if you opponent is bringing superheavies to the table, and the lascannon squad isn’t big enough to make a difference imho. If you think you need to soften up your opponent before charging in, I would invest in some barrage weapons, Medusa’s, basilisks,Master Of Ordnance, or your special Ordnance Rhino. Maybe take your own flyer, remember Ultras were pretty fluid and adaptable. I would recommend a thunderbolt for dogfighting.

Also I can’t undersell the idea of using allies. Milita are cheap, and have acess to cheap but powerful Heavy Artillery batteries, and leman russ tanks that can lay down some supporting fire. Maybe just pretend your Ultras are traitors and use the Army of Dark Compliance theme? Ultras did have a history of working closely with human auxiliaries. You can explain away the negative stuff like your Legionnaires getting a better cover save if they are behind milita units as the loyal Militia men selflessly throwing themselves in the way of incoming fire to protect their lords. Lol. Best thing is you can fill in your compulsory troop slots with 50 point Militia squads and then trick out your ultramarine section of the list.

In addition you might want to consider the new Ultra right of War from book 6. It gives all your allied infantry Infiltrate would could be a big boost to getting to grips with a gunline opponent or an opponent who tries to play wack-a-mole, jumping out from behind cover and dancing away. Send in tons of cheap Militia squads to tie down those quad mortars turn 2 and your Ultras can advance unmolested.

 Formosa wrote:
We get +1 to hit with all swords if have the SAME WS as the target we are hitting, so no hitting on 2+

We get +1 str power swords for 10pts, not free, if a unit already has a power sword, you can swap it for free.

The +1 to hit is pretty situational as against normal units its a nice little extra, worthless against dedicated CC units and the Praetor only gets to use it if he is in combat with something WS6, so its kinda meh.

Thanks for that. I lost the thread for a minute and felt it was a bit late to clarify the DA rules, but good to know there's more of us out there!

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
We get +1 to hit with all swords if have the SAME WS as the target we are hitting, so no hitting on 2+

We get +1 str power swords for 10pts, not free, if a unit already has a power sword, you can swap it for free.

The +1 to hit is pretty situational as against normal units its a nice little extra, worthless against dedicated CC units and the Praetor only gets to use it if he is in combat with something WS6, so its kinda meh.

Thanks for that. I lost the thread for a minute and felt it was a bit late to clarify the DA rules, but good to know there's more of us out there!

No worries, I play them at least twice a week (Ironwing Bro!) and know that our legion traits are not good at all, its our gear thats good and our rites of war.

People say that +1str PS is good but we work better as a shooting army, between ironwing and ravenwing protocals we are encouraged to play that way (for now).

So to summarize it, your opponents seem to play the stronger units but don't want you to play them? That just looks like they aren't the kind of people you want to play with. They literally disallow everything that would make lots of infantry playable (apos, artificer armour etc), while bringing hard counters.

On an other note, did the amount of units you don't play with increase since last year? Because the very similar thread of you from last year definitely had less mentions.

Jorim wrote:
So to summarize it, your opponents seem to play the stronger units but don't want you to play them? That just looks like they aren't the kind of people you want to play with. They literally disallow everything that would make lots of infantry playable (apos, artificer armour etc), while bringing hard counters.

On an other note, did the amount of units you don't play with increase since last year? Because the very similar thread of you from last year definitely had less mentions.

One of the posters specifically asked for army lists as opposed to a general analysis of the Ultramarines which is the OP.

Its essentially the same army, I haven't purchased any new Ultra units since that tourney in middle of last year when I had just got two new Sicarans. I've been preoccupied with my Sisters of Silence and Imperial Fists. I've toyed with ideas like getting a leviathan with a grav flux, kheres dreads, volkite culverins, a second Spartan, a Storm Eagle or Caestus. However I am reluctant to throw anymore money into an army where I am compensating for trash legion rules. It is already a stupidly huge army.

 Formosa wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
We get +1 to hit with all swords if have the SAME WS as the target we are hitting, so no hitting on 2+

We get +1 str power swords for 10pts, not free, if a unit already has a power sword, you can swap it for free.

The +1 to hit is pretty situational as against normal units its a nice little extra, worthless against dedicated CC units and the Praetor only gets to use it if he is in combat with something WS6, so its kinda meh.

Thanks for that. I lost the thread for a minute and felt it was a bit late to clarify the DA rules, but good to know there's more of us out there!

No worries, I play them at least twice a week (Ironwing Bro!) and know that our legion traits are not good at all, its our gear thats good and our rites of war.

People say that +1str PS is good but we work better as a shooting army, between ironwing and ravenwing protocals we are encouraged to play that way (for now).

Not to mention that the characters that can take a +1str PS would usually be better off fishing for some AP2 in a fist (or axe if on a budget). I put them on everyone because I like the fluff of it, but it has almost never mattered since they usually bounce off an opposing 2+ Sv sergeant as nobody wants AP3 hitting a PA squad in any form. Functionally, that +1 to hit with bladed weapons rule only kicks in on tac squads or veterans running into each other (which then forces me to shell out the extra points on tac squads for the additional CC weapon).

DA can be made good, but that relies on things like vets with stasis missile launchers or scimitar jetbikes with acid heavy bolters. Things that cost points. Default, our Legion rules are pretty much hot garbage being that of the two, one of them literally gives points to our opponents. But hey, Ultramarines have it bad too, I guess? I'm probably just bitter because full DA release was bumped one black book further out.

Imagine waiting all that time and one of your rules technically doesn't do anything. Then someone else gets a better version of your wargear for free....

pm713 wrote:
Imagine waiting all that time and one of your rules technically doesn't do anything. Then someone else gets a better version of your wargear for free....

?


I mean with regards to interlocking fire. White Scars get re-roll to wound provided the units moved, meaning they get it almost all of the time and don't have the rule dependent on a supporting unit.

Functionally, a single unit of Ultramarines only has the leadership 10 on fear and regrouping bonus rules. You actually don't get special rules and lost stubborn/furious charge when the ultra got their legion rules. I mean try interlocking tactics and multi-charges in zone mortalis? Please enlighten me on how I am supposed to beat WE in ZM?

In fact in this Amatura campaign I might make a point of counting the exact number of enemy models killed because of interlocking fire.

 Tamwulf wrote:


You are correct! 30K is not about MSU, it's about big squads. The only armies I consider "borderline OP" in 30K are IH and Mechanicum. Custodies just suck to play against. LOL

Sorry, this is off topic to the OP but I wonder why you don't consider the Thousand Sons considerably OP? And the Custodes seem considerably more difficult to take on than mechanicum and certainly more so than Iron Hands, especially with an all-comers list as you might take to a Tourney or pick up game.





As to the OP, at least rejoice at your legion-specific units being bloody hardcore. Alpha Legion Headhunters are frankly garbage.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:


You are correct! 30K is not about MSU, it's about big squads. The only armies I consider "borderline OP" in 30K are IH and Mechanicum. Custodies just suck to play against. LOL

Sorry, this is off topic to the OP but I wonder why you don't consider the Thousand Sons considerably OP? And the Custodes seem considerably more difficult to take on than mechanicum and certainly more so than Iron Hands, especially with an all-comers list as you might take to a Tourney or pick up game.





As to the OP, at least rejoice at your legion-specific units being bloody hardcore. Alpha Legion Headhunters are frankly garbage.

Because I've never played them. We don't have any Custodes players unless you count my own Sisters of Silence force (more a large allied detachment) and while we do have two thousands sons players, one is an inconsistent attendant (though I have played his other army) and the other uses his other armies because he felt his Thousand Sons were OP. He is also the only guy with a mechanicum army and he doesn't use them for the same reason. The man has a lot of armies so I am unlikely to have played all of them.

Two of the Ultra special units don't have models and Invictari are disgustingly expensive and ugly models. £62 for 5? I think that's a joke. So most sane people will only have one squad of these because of practical limitations. I'd rather buy a tank or leviathan than 5 guys...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:


You are correct! 30K is not about MSU, it's about big squads. The only armies I consider "borderline OP" in 30K are IH and Mechanicum. Custodies just suck to play against. LOL

Sorry, this is off topic to the OP but I wonder why you don't consider the Thousand Sons considerably OP? And the Custodes seem considerably more difficult to take on than mechanicum and certainly more so than Iron Hands, especially with an all-comers list as you might take to a Tourney or pick up game.

As to the OP, at least rejoice at your legion-specific units being bloody hardcore. Alpha Legion Headhunters are frankly garbage.

There is only one model that makes Thousand Sons OP- their Primarch Magnus, The recent Red Rule Book and the changes to psychic powers has really reined in his power level. He is still in the top 3 Primarchs with the right powers, but manageable. In my meta, we had a "guest player" playing Thousand Sons, but it was a fun game, and I found them to be just like any other Legion. Based on what I saw at Adepticon and the amount of Thousand Sons players, I might have to take another look at them. I think it just might be a combination of pretty cool models and some good rules that makes them popular, but not OP.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:


You are correct! 30K is not about MSU, it's about big squads. The only armies I consider "borderline OP" in 30K are IH and Mechanicum. Custodies just suck to play against. LOL

Sorry, this is off topic to the OP but I wonder why you don't consider the Thousand Sons considerably OP? And the Custodes seem considerably more difficult to take on than mechanicum and certainly more so than Iron Hands, especially with an all-comers list as you might take to a Tourney or pick up game.

As to the OP, at least rejoice at your legion-specific units being bloody hardcore. Alpha Legion Headhunters are frankly garbage.

There is only one model that makes Thousand Sons OP- their Primarch Magnus, The recent Red Rule Book and the changes to psychic powers has really reined in his power level. He is still in the top 3 Primarchs with the right powers, but manageable. In my meta, we had a "guest player" playing Thousand Sons, but it was a fun game, and I found them to be just like any other Legion. Based on what I saw at Adepticon and the amount of Thousand Sons players, I might have to take another look at them. I think it just might be a combination of pretty cool models and some good rules that makes them popular, but not OP.

My friend played against them and said the main issues he had was the cheap 2w terminators, asphex rounds on sniping veterans and rotor guns with that and rending psychic powers. Completely wrecked his IW gunline army.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Basically this is the list of things you are encouraged to avoid:

Your local meta sounds absolutely terrible.

Indeed. That list reads like a lot of sour grapes.