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 JNAProductions wrote:


Nurgle Daemons completely lack AP outside of HQs, which either 1) don't want to be in CC with Terminators, since they'll do a little damage, then get pasted, or 2) are GUOs, which suck and get focus fired down very quickly.

That's the only entire army I can name off-hand that lacks AP if you stay in-theme, but there's probably a good deal of army builds that lack large amounts of AP, making it easy to focus down what DOES have AP and would therefore render the Terminators completely immortal.


Good catch on the nurlge daemons. I was sure you were wrong. However, I think a 1+ save on terminators would still work, even with that niche army not having very much AP. (I'm not sure anyone playing this game actually brings an entire army without anti tank weaponry).

I didn't write this, originally, but I think having the +1 to save would work best vs shooting attacks only, so they would still be able to be harmed in the fight phase. Despite the current trend of needing everything to be able to harm everything, there were many editions when certain units were invulnerable to other units-- yet the game carried on. I don't think we need to go back to an edition style where we have tiers of useless models taking up space, but I think having single type of unit, an expensive unit, against which you have to marshal your heaviest guns.
   
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Just make them cheaper. Power armor horde!
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Just make them cheaper. Power armor horde!


I'm glad GW has that in their pocket. I think it's a good tool to keep the meta fresh, but, just my preference, in this instance, I'd prefer a solution that makes Marines feel more like the elite fighting force I imagine them to be.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




How about instead of throwing on patches, we just make them cheaper for now. Then when Marines get reviewed in an upcoming update (edition 8.1 if it ever happens) GW can just give them 2 wounds or whatever.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




SonofSlamguinius wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Just make them cheaper. Power armor horde!


I'm glad GW has that in their pocket. I think it's a good tool to keep the meta fresh, but, just my preference, in this instance, I'd prefer a solution that makes Marines feel more like the elite fighting force I imagine them to be.

This post hits the nail on the head. How do we keep them Elite without making them obscene?

Fixing Bolt weapons is a start, and making sure there isn't a lot of redundancy in choices would be the next part

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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That's basically "All is dust" but better.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 koooaei wrote:
That's basically "All is dust" but better.


Thats what i said and as a rubric player, sure ill take it, that means plasma is like getting shot with a bolter, still getting a 3+ armor save.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Define 'elite'?

They are more elite than the most elite still-human (in theory). But are they more elite than elite super samurai space elves? Are they more uber than uber-Soccor Hooligans? Are they a better standing army than the super numerous Emperor's Shield? Are they supposed to be more durable than ancient, slow, and unstoppable robot aliens?

Just what niche are they supposed to have?

The problem with saying "they aren't super enough" in this game, is that you're implying they should be more "super" than other factions. The table top isn't supposed to be reprsentative of the typical fight in the distant future - if it were, it'd be horribly one-sided, with one side just nuking the other from orbit, or overrunning at 10k points.

On the tabletop, you're taking your super elite Marines, who are super at every aspect of war (in theory), and facing factions that are super at one aspect or another. It's hard to feel epic when you go up against other equally-epic things. And what faction isn't epic in at least one way?
   
Made in us
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East Bay, Ca, US

Durability isn't the problem, it's offense, but you can fix both of these with some stratagems.

1CP - Battle Brothers
Use when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY unit has been targeted by a ranged attack. For the duration of this phase, units must subtract 1 from their wound rolls when targeting this unit, and the unit improves its save characteristic by 1.

1CP - For the Emperor
Use before an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit is chosen to fight in the fight phase. Add 2 to this units attacks characteristics for the remainder of this phase.

1CP - Rain of Fire
Use during the shooting phase. All ADEPTUS ASTARTES boltguns have their strength improved by 2, and automatically hit their targets.

1CP - Focused Fire
Use after an ADEPTUS ASTARTES infantry has targeted a unit with a boltgun. All boltguns targeting this unit improve their rapid fire characteristic by 1.

Also change chapter tactics a bit.

Imperial Fists - Improve the strength of Boltgun weapons by 1. Wound rolls of 6 are resolved at AP-2.

White Scars - Units affected by chapter tactics can advance and fire all weapons with no penalty.

Ultramarines - Ultramarines units affected by chapter tactics can shoot all of their weapons while locked in combat as normal. Units cannot fall back from combat with Ultramarines units. Dreadnoughts gain a 4+ invulnerable save.

etc.

Roboute Guilliman needs to be completely reworked. He should bonus all ADEPTUS ASTARTES and IMPERIUM, and also have a phase-by-phase buff he can grant within 12" that works on any ADEPTUS ASTARTES. For example, "in the fight phase, you may nominate an ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY or WALKER within 12" of Roboute Guilliman, models in this unit improve their attack capability by 4, and their strength & toughness by 1." So he's more targeted buffing and not restricted to blue marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 15:10:26


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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Some of those seem a bit too far.

Should UM Devs really be able to fire their Grav Cannons in CC, for instance?

Should Imperial Fists get the power of both FIre Warrior guns and Eldar guns, at no price point change?

UM could really use a better tactic. Something like units can shoot when falling back - like Fly, no penalty to hit. Or something to enhance their combined-arms engagements.

White Scars could use the shoot-at-minus1 when falling back coupled with "may charge". Not just the "may charge" (and both would be too powerful).

Big G doesn't need a buff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 15:29:57


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

They seem too far until you realize that fire warriors would still have better guns, and have a way longer range with good stratagems to support them. Marines are already more expensive, anyway.

All in all the marine traits are hot garbage across the board. They need massive redesign. Additionally, marines have maybe 2 semi-useful stratagems, those are also garbage.

And Roboute is only good for Ultramarines... and Ultramarines aren't that good, even with him in there.

How about we give every devastator marine a 3 damage, AP-3, strength 8 missile launcher, their PPM cost should be about 20, give them multiple firing modes on that missile launcher, and give them the ability to always hit on a 3+ regardless of modifiers. Also the sergeant can take a 2d6 mortar for a pittance. Sounds like you'd break the game, right? Right?

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Fire Warriors with rifles would have +6" range, but no AP vs the pseudo-rending Marines would have. Debatable which of the two is better, but I'd definitely think it's the Marine weapon. Which would still cost a little more, but still be a much better platform.

The RavenGuard trait is good, and the IH trait is ok would be good if it affected vehicles. The rest aren't good, I'd agree.

I'm not arguing that Reapers aren't OP. Further, you're basically making up FUD that doesn't help (it's only AP-2 and about 30ppm, not 20). But if we give Marines the same (even adjusted for the Marine's upsides), now everything else in the game is even *worse* off. Reapers need to be fixed. One-upping them with Marines is a bad idea.
   
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SonofSlamguinius wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Just make them cheaper. Power armor horde!


I'm glad GW has that in their pocket. I think it's a good tool to keep the meta fresh, but, just my preference, in this instance, I'd prefer a solution that makes Marines feel more like the elite fighting force I imagine them to be.


It's never been like that, and so I think it's safe to give up on that.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Bharring wrote:
Define 'elite'?

They are more elite than the most elite still-human (in theory). But are they more elite than elite super samurai space elves? Are they more uber than uber-Soccor Hooligans? Are they a better standing army than the super numerous Emperor's Shield? Are they supposed to be more durable than ancient, slow, and unstoppable robot aliens?

Just what niche are they supposed to have?

The problem with saying "they aren't super enough" in this game, is that you're implying they should be more "super" than other factions. The table top isn't supposed to be reprsentative of the typical fight in the distant future - if it were, it'd be horribly one-sided, with one side just nuking the other from orbit, or overrunning at 10k points.

On the tabletop, you're taking your super elite Marines, who are super at every aspect of war (in theory), and facing factions that are super at one aspect or another. It's hard to feel epic when you go up against other equally-epic things. And what faction isn't epic in at least one way?


No, I get that. But realistically, we can all agree that terminators are not worth the points, yeah? I don't think anyone disputes that. The solution is then, either to 1) make them cheaper. Or 2) make them better. If they were to become cheaper, then there would be a higher ratio of terminator to enemy. And what I am saying is that, while that's a good tool for game balance, it doesn't capture the feel (for me) of terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
SonofSlamguinius wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Just make them cheaper. Power armor horde!


I'm glad GW has that in their pocket. I think it's a good tool to keep the meta fresh, but, just my preference, in this instance, I'd prefer a solution that makes Marines feel more like the elite fighting force I imagine them to be.


It's never been like that, and so I think it's safe to give up on that.


Well... This is the proposed rules forum is it not? This whole thing is basically a huge thought experiment. I harbor no hope that GW is actually reading this post and taking notes from it, so basically, you could say that about any post here. I'm pretty sure we're all just engaging in a little bit of fantasy, same as when sports fans sit around the bar and talk about who the Giants should pick up.

However, if you want some historical perspective, when 3rd edition came out, terminators had a 2+ save and were getting wiped off tables everywhere. So, GW published a rules addendum in White Dwarf giving them the 5+ invulnerable save that they've had ever since.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/06 07:25:49


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd rather this be a Strategem where they make the armor go overboard or something. I dunno. I do like the Lucius trait as a potential one for a Marine Chapter, but as a regular thing they get...nah. The problem is offense, mostly.


So unscalable boost...Nah not everything should be strategems which are horribly unscalable to begin with.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
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 Marmatag wrote:
Durability isn't the problem, it's offense, but you can fix both of these with some stratagems.

1CP - Battle Brothers
Use when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY unit has been targeted by a ranged attack. For the duration of this phase, units must subtract 1 from their wound rolls when targeting this unit, and the unit improves its save characteristic by 1.

1CP - For the Emperor
Use before an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit is chosen to fight in the fight phase. Add 2 to this units attacks characteristics for the remainder of this phase.

1CP - Rain of Fire
Use during the shooting phase. All ADEPTUS ASTARTES boltguns have their strength improved by 2, and automatically hit their targets.

1CP - Focused Fire
Use after an ADEPTUS ASTARTES infantry has targeted a unit with a boltgun. All boltguns targeting this unit improve their rapid fire characteristic by 1.

Also change chapter tactics a bit.

Imperial Fists - Improve the strength of Boltgun weapons by 1. Wound rolls of 6 are resolved at AP-2.

White Scars - Units affected by chapter tactics can advance and fire all weapons with no penalty.

Ultramarines - Ultramarines units affected by chapter tactics can shoot all of their weapons while locked in combat as normal. Units cannot fall back from combat with Ultramarines units. Dreadnoughts gain a 4+ invulnerable save.

etc.

Roboute Guilliman needs to be completely reworked. He should bonus all ADEPTUS ASTARTES and IMPERIUM, and also have a phase-by-phase buff he can grant within 12" that works on any ADEPTUS ASTARTES. For example, "in the fight phase, you may nominate an ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY or WALKER within 12" of Roboute Guilliman, models in this unit improve their attack capability by 4, and their strength & toughness by 1." So he's more targeted buffing and not restricted to blue marines.


Yes let's get some eldar level cheese


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or I dunno maybe it's not cheesy. I'm just not used to having more than ATSKNF(which I never use) and falling back at -1 to hit so I don't know what it's like to be broken

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/06 16:21:38


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd rather this be a Strategem where they make the armor go overboard or something. I dunno. I do like the Lucius trait as a potential one for a Marine Chapter, but as a regular thing they get...nah. The problem is offense, mostly.


So unscalable boost...Nah not everything should be strategems which are horribly unscalable to begin with.

Max unit size is 10 most of the time, so basically you either really want to save that MSU or it scales like the Sternguard Strategem does (granted nobody uses it, really). What's the problem here?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Honestly primaris marines are what regular marines should be. Tactical marines with a bolt rifle, 2 wounds, 2 attacks base, and a chain sword standard, with more flexible special/heavy weapon options puts them in a good spot to be both decent in shooting, melee (3 attacks per model hitting on 3+) and more resistant to small arms/high volume of fire weapons. A 3+ armor is fine as is, they just really need another wound. (if you want to keep primaris around give them a 3rd wound and slight buffs to weapons.)
   
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Or just make primaris marines 13 ppm and call it a day.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Or just make primaris marines 13 ppm and call it a day.

Now that's a bit absurd. I can see arguments for 17 points, but anything below that is kinda too cheap.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Or just make primaris marines 13 ppm and call it a day.

Now that's a bit absurd. I can see arguments for 17 points, but anything below that is kinda too cheap.


Is it though? They are thoroughly ignorable for half the game, have no transports, no drop pods, no heavy weapons. IG would still stomp 13 ppm primaris into the dirt, because everything they're throwing is multi wound. Or at least, everything they pay more than 4 ppm for is.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/07 01:36:10


 
   
Made in us
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Think about this:

If a guardsmen with a lasgun is worth 4 points and a marine with a bolter is worth 13, guardsmen are:

82% better per point at killing T3 5+ in melee and shooting than marines.
62% better per point at killing T4 3+ in melee and shooting than marines.
44% more durable per point vs S2 AP0 than marines
62% more durable per point vs S4 AP0 than marines
95% more durable per point vs S4 AP1 than marines
95% more durable per point vs S5 AP1 than marines
56% more durable per point vs S6 AP1 than marines

The only thing a marine would be more durable per point against would be a S2 AP0 weapon, and i'm not sure any of those even exist.

This shows that the most important stat a infantry unit can have in this edition is a wound. Toughness and saves are currently over-costed, and with the way things are costed, it's better to have them as low as possible.

As weapons get better the durability of higher T or better saves gets lower.

For example:
--AP1 increases the number of failed saves taken by a marine by 50%, but only by 25% for a guardsmen.
--AP3 increases the number of failed saves taken by a marine by 150%, but only by 50% for a guardsmen.
--Going from T3 to T4 reduces your damage from S3 by 33%, S4 by 25%, S5 by 0, S6/7 by 20%, and S8/9/10 by 0.

Having 2 wounds is also not very useful at the current costs. It is priced because it is twice as good as having 1 wound vs 1 damage weapons, but there is a large enough number of high rate of fire 2D guns in the game that this durability is frequently bypassed. 3 or 4 wounds is better, since it triples/quadruple the number of 1D and doubles the number of 2D needed. 3W is the beginning a true durability from wounds, as you need to use heavy weapons or a large numbers of shots to take them down. A las cannon or missile launcher averages 3.5 damage per wound, so anything with more than 5 wounds is likely to require two heavy weapon shots, and D6 damage guns frequently have a very low rate of fire, so this is true one model durability.

Invul saves are also good, because they bypass the AP issue.

This is why almost anything in the game right that is supposed to be durable but doesn't have a 3 or 4+ invul and/or 4+ wounds just isn't in a great place right now. They pay a lot for wounds, high toughness, and good saves, but those all tend to have fairly high diminishing returns.
   
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Spoiler:
jcd386 wrote:
Think about this:

If a guardsmen with a lasgun is worth 4 points and a marine with a bolter is worth 13, guardsmen are:

82% better per point at killing T3 5+ in melee and shooting than marines.
62% better per point at killing T4 3+ in melee and shooting than marines.
44% more durable per point vs S2 AP0 than marines
62% more durable per point vs S4 AP0 than marines
95% more durable per point vs S4 AP1 than marines
95% more durable per point vs S5 AP1 than marines
56% more durable per point vs S6 AP1 than marines

The only thing a marine would be more durable per point against would be a S2 AP0 weapon, and i'm not sure any of those even exist.

This shows that the most important stat a infantry unit can have in this edition is a wound. Toughness and saves are currently over-costed, and with the way things are costed, it's better to have them as low as possible.

As weapons get better the durability of higher T or better saves gets lower.

For example:
--AP1 increases the number of failed saves taken by a marine by 50%, but only by 25% for a guardsmen.
--AP3 increases the number of failed saves taken by a marine by 150%, but only by 50% for a guardsmen.
--Going from T3 to T4 reduces your damage from S3 by 33%, S4 by 25%, S5 by 0, S6/7 by 20%, and S8/9/10 by 0.

Having 2 wounds is also not very useful at the current costs. It is priced because it is twice as good as having 1 wound vs 1 damage weapons, but there is a large enough number of high rate of fire 2D guns in the game that this durability is frequently bypassed. 3 or 4 wounds is better, since it triples/quadruple the number of 1D and doubles the number of 2D needed. 3W is the beginning a true durability from wounds, as you need to use heavy weapons or a large numbers of shots to take them down. A las cannon or missile launcher averages 3.5 damage per wound, so anything with more than 5 wounds is likely to require two heavy weapon shots, and D6 damage guns frequently have a very low rate of fire, so this is true one model durability.

Invul saves are also good, because they bypass the AP issue.

This is why almost anything in the game right that is supposed to be durable but doesn't have a 3 or 4+ invul and/or 4+ wounds just isn't in a great place right now. They pay a lot for wounds, high toughness, and good saves, but those all tend to have fairly high diminishing returns.


Have you considered sending away your math to that email GW uses for rule suggestions?
   
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Should come up with armor classes. Space marines would have plate armor and terminators would have heavy plate. And each weapon would be able to defeat certain classes of armor with an unmodified roll. Or modified roll if it has a very small chance of penetration. I was gonna create a realistic weapon vs armor system. Because the game is optimized to play fast. But some people would use house rules for added realism
   
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jcd386 wrote:
This shows that the most important stat a infantry unit can have in this edition is a wound.
This is precisely why every non-AM players say AM is top tier (admittedly no longer OP tier) because they have access to cheapest wounds that actually do stuff.

Also, to add, having 3 individual 1W model is more durable than a single 3W model due to how damages don't spill over.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 22:15:18


 
   
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I apologize in advance for this pseudo-necro.

Was looking at DKoK, in particular the "Augmented Mount" rule. This would be such an easy implementation to give marines across the board some decent durability buff as well as equalizing the number of dice rolled for 'elite' armies. The rule could be something like:

Astartes Built - roll a d6 everytime this model suffers a wound from attacks with strength 4 or less. On a 5+, it ignores the injury and the wound is not lost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 19:23:13


 
   
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Peregrine wrote:
No. Marines are supposed to be resistant to small arms fire, their armor shouldn't protect them against the heaviest guns. Getting even a 6+ save against a titan-scale weapon is absurd.

A better option, if you want to improve their durability, would be to give them a +1 save bonus against weapons with STR 4 or less. Now you get a 2+ armor save against the hordes of flashlight-armed cannon fodder, but heavy weapons still kill marines.
Dude - the whole game is absurd. You have 8 point wracks with 4++ saves blocking volcano cannons but a marine gets no save. Both should die true but if a wrack is getting a 4++ - what should a marine get?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 skchsan wrote:
I apologize in advance for this pseudo-necro.

Was looking at DKoK, in particular the "Augmented Mount" rule. This would be such an easy implementation to give marines across the board some decent durability buff as well as equalizing the number of dice rolled for 'elite' armies. The rule could be something like:

Astartes Built - roll a d6 everytime this model suffers a wound from attacks with ztrength 4 or less. On a 5+, it ignores the injury and the wound is not lost.
Just give them 5+++ all the time. Vs str 4 is meaningless. Marines can already get a 2+ save from most str 4 weapons anyways - it's special weapons that remove them far too easily. Consdiering about half the guns in your opponents army are special weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 13:49:49


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Vs s4 is only meaningless to MEQs who don't currently fear S4. Most GEQs would love it.
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






I gotta agree with Xeno, I'm not losing many Marines to mass splinter fire, I'm losing them to disintegrater shots or blasters, Lance's and such.

Over in one of the GK threads someone said Robin Cruddance said they were gonna look at changing the earlier codexes in this chapter approved. I hope it's true and I hope they talk about it long before they release it, A: because I can't wait and B: if it sucks we could say something lol
   
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Meqs take more damage from str 4 ap 0 than geqs. So i don't know what people are talking about.
   
 
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