Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sire122 wrote:
If I brought aImperial knight in a casual friendly game, would it make me TFG? I just mostly want it for the models and fluff reasons, but I'm not sure if I should.

Superheavies aren't superheavies because they're good. Superheavies are superheavies because they're big. Bring as many as you want. Honestly, you're more likely to hinder yourself than anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
If you bring a Knight, it is generally expected these days and most won't bat an eyelid.

Bring a Baneblade or Supremacy Suit and probably best to make your opponent aware beforehand.

Anything Warhound upwards you best damned well tell your opponent what is coming and don't be offended if they refuse to play you.

Most baneblade chassis are worse than knights. Even the good ones aren't fantastic.

 Karhedron wrote:

Stux wrote:

A naked Shadowsword (one of the cheaper AM super heavies) costs 404. That's the same price as 101 Guardsmen.

101 guardsmen rapid firing will do an anerage of 5.61 wounds a turn to the Shadowsword. As the Shadowsword has 26 wounds, that's 5 turns of sustained fire, if they don't incur any losses in the meantime.

Yes but how many Guardsmen will that Shadowsword kill over the same number turns? You have an anti-tank weapon vs a horde and anti-horde weapons vs a tank. I suspect that both players would die of boredom/old-age before you got a meaningful result.

The shadowsword kills ~5 a turn unless it goes into melee, I think.

Funny enough, if you drop a squad and put a plasma gun on each squad, you're doing about 12.5 wounds a turn to that shadowsword. It goes down in 2 turns if you add in a melee charge from the guardsmen.

I wouldn't even consider that a crazy optimization to kill the Shadowsword; that's just a natural build if you're taking a horde of guardsmen.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:


Bring a Baneblade or Supremacy Suit and probably best to make your opponent aware beforehand

Uh oh. Now you've gone and done it- You've completed the summoning ritual...

What, is Martel turning up?

I do agree with the previous comments regarding points efficiency but at the same time I think rocking up to a friendly unannounced with a warhound/reiver et al is bit off. Saying that, if they really are as bad in situ then it could make for a decent thematic friendly, just polite to give a heads up I guess.

I guess you haven't been keeping up with the points increases on them?

A warhound is 2000 points. If you spring that on someone then it'll be your whole army and it'll be dead in turn 2.

A reaver is 4000. If you typically play games big enough to be able to spring that on someone then you ought to be used to titans showing up. (and same problem as the warhound)

 Scott-S6 wrote:
A warhound is 2000 points. If you spring that on someone then it'll be your whole army and it'll be dead in turn 2.

A reaver is 4000. If you typically play games big enough to be able to spring that on someone then you ought to be used to titans showing up. (and same problem as the warhound)

You don't even need to bother killing him. It's one model. How much objectives you think it can hold?-) And played properly MAX it can kill is 3 units per turn(2 guns + close combat). That assuming it kills unit reliably with everything. Guns don't generally wipe any target in a turn and it's not CC monster either...

You don't need to even kill it. Just take objectives and win.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:


Bring a Baneblade or Supremacy Suit and probably best to make your opponent aware beforehand

Uh oh. Now you've gone and done it- You've completed the summoning ritual...

What, is Martel turning up?

I was thinking more a certain someone with their Baneblade army of only Baneblades that isn't very good because it has to be all Baneblades all the time.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:


Bring a Baneblade or Supremacy Suit and probably best to make your opponent aware beforehand

Uh oh. Now you've gone and done it- You've completed the summoning ritual...

What, is Martel turning up?

I do agree with the previous comments regarding points efficiency but at the same time I think rocking up to a friendly unannounced with a warhound/reiver et al is bit off. Saying that, if they really are as bad in situ then it could make for a decent thematic friendly, just polite to give a heads up I guess.

I guess you haven't been keeping up with the points increases on them?

A warhound is 2000 points. If you spring that on someone then it'll be your whole army and it'll be dead in turn 2.

A reaver is 4000. If you typically play games big enough to be able to spring that on someone then you ought to be used to titans showing up. (and same problem as the warhound)

You are correct, I wasn't aware they got hiked up to that degree - was that the result of Chapter Approved? Thanks for pointing it out.

Well colour me surprised.

Still polite just to let an opponent know in advance but as others have stated you would practically have to be bonkers bringing something like Reaver.

It's important to have a conversation before the game about what both players are expecting. I think this is true for every "friendly" game, regardless of if you bring a superheavy or not.

My personal opinion is that Superheavies are actually in a fairly good space in 8th as a general rule (i.e. just being "bigger" without having any special snowflake rules, generally). Some points adjustments need to happen (damn near every Forge World Superheavy is 50% or more too expensive, and Imperial Knights weep for what could have been). But as a general rule, they're fine, though for your first few games you may want to talk it out with your opponent.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

You are correct, I wasn't aware they got hiked up to that degree - was that the result of Chapter Approved? Thanks for pointing it out.

Well colour me surprised.

Still polite just to let an opponent know in advance but as others have stated you would practically have to be bonkers bringing something like Reaver.

Yep, CA increased their cost to the point that they're useless.

The concern with bringing a warehouse would be that its a really boring game rather than it being too powerful or too difficult to kill.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

The concern with bringing a warehouse would be that its a really boring game rather than it being too powerful or too difficult to kill.

Agreed.


Warehouses are pretty difficult to kill. (Sorry! I couldn't resist. At any rate, yes.)

Yeah titans are hot garbage this edition, considering you can take 2 shadow swords from the cost of half a warhound and blast it off the table in one turn, and potentially blast a reaver off the table.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Yeah titans are hot garbage this edition, considering you can take 2 shadow swords from the cost of half a warhound and blast it off the table in one turn, and potentially blast a reaver off the table.

I think they're excessively dependent on their void shield save, honestly. They can be a nightmare to deal with with hot dice - even Mortal Wounds have no purchase. On the other hand, they go down like a house of cards in a hurricane with cold dice.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Yeah titans are hot garbage this edition, considering you can take 2 shadow swords from the cost of half a warhound and blast it off the table in one turn, and potentially blast a reaver off the table.

I think they're excessively dependent on their void shield save, honestly. They can be a nightmare to deal with with hot dice - even Mortal Wounds have no purchase. On the other hand, they go down like a house of cards in a hurricane with cold dice.

Yeah their void shield nerf was really rough on them, seeing as how the second you get one shot through with a volcano cannon. you deal 2d6 wounds, and can reroll the damage

Xachariah wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Stux wrote:

A naked Shadowsword (one of the cheaper AM super heavies) costs 404. That's the same price as 101 Guardsmen.

101 guardsmen rapid firing will do an anerage of 5.61 wounds a turn to the Shadowsword. As the Shadowsword has 26 wounds, that's 5 turns of sustained fire, if they don't incur any losses in the meantime.

Yes but how many Guardsmen will that Shadowsword kill over the same number turns? You have an anti-tank weapon vs a horde and anti-horde weapons vs a tank. I suspect that both players would die of boredom/old-age before you got a meaningful result.

The shadowsword kills ~5 a turn unless it goes into melee, I think.

Funny enough, if you drop a squad and put a plasma gun on each squad, you're doing about 12.5 wounds a turn to that shadowsword. It goes down in 2 turns if you add in a melee charge from the guardsmen.

I wouldn't even consider that a crazy optimization to kill the Shadowsword; that's just a natural build if you're taking a horde of guardsmen.

Exactly. Hordes are still terrible at killing heavies (unless you give them specialised weaponry for the task). Just because it's now POSSIBLE for lasguns alone to kill a Baneblade, doesn't mean it would ever happen in a real game.

Heavies are also terrible at killing hordes though, and hordes are infinitely better at doing objectives, so the hordes still win in the abstract.

Stux wrote:

Xachariah wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Stux wrote:

A naked Shadowsword (one of the cheaper AM super heavies) costs 404. That's the same price as 101 Guardsmen.

101 guardsmen rapid firing will do an anerage of 5.61 wounds a turn to the Shadowsword. As the Shadowsword has 26 wounds, that's 5 turns of sustained fire, if they don't incur any losses in the meantime.

Yes but how many Guardsmen will that Shadowsword kill over the same number turns? You have an anti-tank weapon vs a horde and anti-horde weapons vs a tank. I suspect that both players would die of boredom/old-age before you got a meaningful result.

The shadowsword kills ~5 a turn unless it goes into melee, I think.

Funny enough, if you drop a squad and put a plasma gun on each squad, you're doing about 12.5 wounds a turn to that shadowsword. It goes down in 2 turns if you add in a melee charge from the guardsmen.

I wouldn't even consider that a crazy optimization to kill the Shadowsword; that's just a natural build if you're taking a horde of guardsmen.

Exactly. Hordes are still terrible at killing heavies (unless you give them specialised weaponry for the task). Just because it's now POSSIBLE for lasguns alone to kill a Baneblade, doesn't mean it would ever happen in a real game.

Heavies are also terrible at killing hordes though, and hordes are infinitely better at doing objectives, so the hordes still win in the abstract.

"Super heavies are terrible at killing hordes"
uhhhhhh my brawler blade would like to disagree.
Bane hammer with 4 twin linked heavy flamer sponsors, go ahead, charge me with your horde army.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Stux wrote:

Xachariah wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Stux wrote:

A naked Shadowsword (one of the cheaper AM super heavies) costs 404. That's the same price as 101 Guardsmen.

101 guardsmen rapid firing will do an anerage of 5.61 wounds a turn to the Shadowsword. As the Shadowsword has 26 wounds, that's 5 turns of sustained fire, if they don't incur any losses in the meantime.

Yes but how many Guardsmen will that Shadowsword kill over the same number turns? You have an anti-tank weapon vs a horde and anti-horde weapons vs a tank. I suspect that both players would die of boredom/old-age before you got a meaningful result.

The shadowsword kills ~5 a turn unless it goes into melee, I think.

Funny enough, if you drop a squad and put a plasma gun on each squad, you're doing about 12.5 wounds a turn to that shadowsword. It goes down in 2 turns if you add in a melee charge from the guardsmen.

I wouldn't even consider that a crazy optimization to kill the Shadowsword; that's just a natural build if you're taking a horde of guardsmen.

Exactly. Hordes are still terrible at killing heavies (unless you give them specialised weaponry for the task). Just because it's now POSSIBLE for lasguns alone to kill a Baneblade, doesn't mean it would ever happen in a real game.

Heavies are also terrible at killing hordes though, and hordes are infinitely better at doing objectives, so the hordes still win in the abstract.

"Super heavies are terrible at killing hordes"
uhhhhhh my brawler blade would like to disagree.
Bane hammer with 4 twin linked heavy flamer sponsors, go ahead, charge me with your horde army.

Haha! Fair enough there are exceptions.

Even that would take a few turns to deal with its own points in Guardsmen I'd wager though.

Stux wrote:
Even that would take a few turns to deal with its own points in Guardsmen I'd wager though.

Depends on a lot of factors. My regimental command tank for my superheavy tank regiment, Rodina, is exactly this: a banehammer with heavy flamer sponsons. It's own points in guardsmen is something like 140 guardsmen. If it can bring its 8d6 heavy flamer dice to bear, it can do alright, but yeah, it struggles.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

The concern with bringing a warehouse would be that its a really boring game rather than it being too powerful or too difficult to kill.

Agreed.


Warehouses are pretty difficult to kill. (Sorry! I couldn't resist. At any rate, yes.)

Curse you, autocorrect

Eh they arent that bad. the first "casual" game i played i faced one. I Sighed then by the end of the game i realized all my frustrations against it was from the last edition.

but then again you probably should let them know ahead of time just to avoid any chances of being called a surprise TGF if that matters to you.

I think they are fine, but I am not a fan of the super heavy detachment in 2k games. People should not be incentivized to spam super heavies.

Knights might need an exception if they want to keep them as a separate codex, but I would rather they some sort of alternative CP generating methodology.

Before 8th I would have thought Super Heavies over the top. However, in 8th with its "everything can wound", I am much more amicable towards those who want to play with SH.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Before 8th I would have thought Super Heavies over the top. However, in 8th with its "everything can wound", I am much more amicable towards those who want to play with SH.

But keep in mind, as people have said, just because my Gauss Flayers *can* hurt your Baneblade doesn't mean I can reliably kill it still.