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Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Marmatag wrote:
There's an HQ unit that has a command ability to improve a save by 1.

Guy with a lantern and maybe a Gryph-Hound, right? That's the Lord-Castellant. He has no Command Ability on his warscroll. If he's your General, he'd only have 'Inspiring Presence' available to him.

For him--it's not a Command Ability--it's just a thing he gets to do and it has a 12" range.

Not picking on you or saying "Gah! Noob!". Just making sure you know who he is and what he does for the future.

The Drake riders already have a 3+ rerolling 1s, and if they get a 6, they heal a wound.

So with that command ability, they have a 2+ rerolling 1s, and a save roll of 6 heals them.

Okay so we're clear, the Dracoth Riders only get that perk when they're within 12" of him. He has a lower move value than they do so it becomes a case of "can you separate the two".

He gives them a +1 to their save rolls(this is important to remember as there are terrain features and bits and bobs that can come into play that reduce the save rolls as well). Additionally, the healing ability is "until your next hero phase, each time you make a save roll of 7 or more for that unit, one model in the unit heals a wound.


Meaning, if you bring AP0 weapons against them, it's more likely you will heal them, then damage them.

I'm not qualified to do the math here for saves and the like, but with stuff like Dracoths and other beatstick units--their points become very limiting. Especially when they're not Battleline units.

IF you go after the Lord-Castellant, that regaining of Wounds is gone.
IF you hit them with anything that can reduce their armor save or their save rolls--that regaining of Wounds is gone.
IF you hit them with anything that inflicts multiple damage per Wound--that regaining of Wounds is reduced in efficiency.

Black Knights, because of the fact that if they charge they get +1 to their Wound rolls(3+ to hit 3+ to Wound), with 11 attacks in a bare minimum unit of 5 doing 2 damage per successful Wound...the math might not be great for them initially but it can get swung in their favor thanks to you just reviving models into the unit.
Hell--if you take a Wight King on Skeletal Steed(easy enough to convert/kitbash a good looking one!), his Command Ability can give them another attack with their Lance whomping it up to 17 attacks on 3/3 with 2 damage.

Even with +1 to save rolls and rerolling 1s, that becomes a bit harsh. And that doesn't include the steeds themselves!
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Yes, you're right about all that stuff regarding the Celestant. I forget the names and terms. This was my first game, after all, so noob definitely applies! I proudly wear the title in regards to AOS.

Okay - so, they have to be within 12" - that makes sense. We were playing smaller games with the models, and I found that our entire armies were within 12" of everything at all times. I was playing his Ironjawz. And, it is a 7+ save, but with the +1 that becomes a 6 if no rend.

With no AP, and a 2+ rerolling 1s, you have a 1/36 chance to fail the save & deal damage, and 7/36 chance to pass the save and heal a wound. In other words, it never becomes efficient with Rend0 weapons unless they're dealing high damage, essentially enough to kill one outright.

This is why the Hexwraiths jumped out to me.

The Black Knights charge, and with their 17 attacks expect to deal 0.42 damage. Meanwhile, they expect to heal 1.47 wounds.

Meanwhile, Hexwraiths never allow him to heal. Because they have -1 rend. And, if they move over the unit on the charge, and are at a full man unit of 5, then on that charge they should deal an expected 3.10 wounds (counting mortals and failed saves). Also with the ability to move over and through targets, they have a better chance to assassinate the leader.

Now, I am super new here. And, it is entirely possible that in a take-all-comers scenario the Hexwraiths are worse. But in this case, I think they are a clear winner.

That said, do the Black Knights offer some kind of benefit that i'm not seeing, for instance, a formation? I'm still not clear on how battlelines work, and why some units count as a battleline and others do not.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Marmatag wrote:

Meanwhile, Hexwraiths never allow him to heal. Because they have -1 rend. And, if they move over the unit on the charge, and are at a full man unit of 5, then on that charge they should deal an expected 3.10 wounds (counting mortals and failed saves). Also with the ability to move over and through targets, they have a better chance to assassinate the leader.

Aren't there spells allowing for things to gain Fly?

Now, I am super new here. And, it is entirely possible that in a take-all-comers scenario the Hexwraiths are worse. But in this case, I think they are a clear winner.

That said, do the Black Knights offer some kind of benefit that i'm not seeing, for instance, a formation?

You'd have to check your book for that.

I'm still not clear on how battlelines work, and why some units count as a battleline and others do not.

A certain percentage of your army has to consist of Battleline units to be considered 'legal' for Matched Play.

Some units are "Battleline"(meaning they're just always going to be that), others are "Battleline If..." and become Battleline when certain conditions are met(Allegiance Idoneth Deepkin and Akhelian King as general, for an example.).
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Also i'm playing around with the Warscroll builder. I don't understand why models that should be a battleline for Grand host of Nagash aren't counting towards my battleline requirement, despite having it selected.

My book is at home, so i can't immediately check these formations and rules just yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/23 19:55:52


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Marmatag wrote:
Also i'm playing around with the Warscroll builder. I don't understand why models that should be a battleline for Grand host of Nagash aren't counting towards my battleline requirement, despite having it selected.

My book is at home, so i can't immediately check these formations and rules just yet.

You have to have the right Allegiance and Army and in some cases the right General.
   
Made in gb
Small Wyrm of Slaanesh





 Marmatag wrote:
Also i'm playing around with the Warscroll builder. I don't understand why models that should be a battleline for Grand host of Nagash aren't counting towards my battleline requirement, despite having it selected.

My book is at home, so i can't immediately check these formations and rules just yet.


'Tis just a small thing that happens with some units in the warscroll builder. Morghast's just don't seem to count as battleline even if you click the right allegiances and make Nagash your general.


In regards to the Black Knights they are part of two formations whilst hexwraiths are not present in any, these are-
The First Cohort - Gives a guaranteed 3 wounds back on Nagash' return units ability and gives Morghasts a Look out Sir ability for Nagash.
Deathmarch - Gives 1 model back a turn per unit near the Wight king + extra movement


Black Knights in my eyes are ok, they're cheaper then the Wraiths and with a little support can take a little beating and their charge isn't all that bad, decent for objective taking.

Hexwraiths whilst far cooler do cost quite a lot, and with the recent change to stop them gaining any modifiers got a little bit less survivability but this is offset by their beefy buff to damage, with their ability to fly they can also become quite a nuisance in a back-line.

Both are fine for casual stuff, just depends what points you have going spare, obviously in the situation of a 2+ rerollable, 6 = healing save the Black Knights are thoroughly outclassed, but I don't think that they should be the ones to tackle that threat.
Luckily I believe the saddles can be interchanged on the kit as it sits on a little pin on the horse.


For a 2k with Nagash- 3 drops
Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Necromancer
Nagash
5 x Grave Guard
40 x Skeleton Warriors
5 x Grave Guard
2 x Morghast Archai
6 x Spirit Hosts
The First Cohort

Another variation I've seen is focusing on the graveguard making them the hammer...and the anvil, with morghasts fighting over them an an additional hammer.

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Nagash Supreme Lord Of The Undead
Necromancer
Necromancer
10 x Skeleton Warriors
10 x Skeleton Warriors
30 x Grave Guard
2 x Morghast Archai
The First Cohort


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/23 21:08:28


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

That makes sense regarding the warscroll builder. I was really struggling to figure out why it wouldn't work. Can you help me understand what it takes to get the legion command traits? Does your entire army have to be the same specific keyword? Kind of like, 100% grand host of nagash to get the nagash benefits? Or could it be grand host units + some deathrattle units, like skeletons and black knights?

Interchangeable models is music to my ears, really.

The start collecting has basically 1 model that might deal with those drakes, and that's the hero. Which is fine. He's a beast in his own right. The way i dealt with this before I was throwing a Megaboss into them.

Black Knights with an extra damage on the charge will outperform Hexwraiths against less durable targets. I can see the wisdom in using them, in a general sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/23 20:42:14


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Small Wyrm of Slaanesh





 Marmatag wrote:
That makes sense regarding the warscroll builder. I was really struggling to figure out why it wouldn't work. Can you help me understand what it takes to get the legion command traits? Does your entire army have to be the same specific keyword? Kind of like, 100% grand host of nagash to get the nagash benefits? Or could it be grand host units + some deathrattle units, like skeletons and black knights?

Interchangeable models is music to my ears, really.

The start collecting has basically 1 model that might deal with those drakes, and that's the hero. Which is fine. He's a beast in his own right. The way i dealt with this before I was throwing a Megaboss into them.

Black Knights with an extra damage on the charge will outperform Hexwraiths against less durable targets. I can see the wisdom in using them, in a general sense.


If you feel up to magnetising the Mortarch just magnetise the saddle and then you've got all 3 ready to go.

The Legions of Nagash and infact all of the different Legions (Night, Sacrament, Blood and Grand Host) is quite literally every death model, except old warscrolls such as Vampire on Abyssal Terror, the entirety of Flesh Eater Courts and until they update it the Forge World Mourngul. If you wish to ally in Flesh Eaters you can use up to 20% of your total points (400 at 2000 points) to get them in whilst maintaining your allegiance.

To get the command traits/relics for each individual legion you must choose which one you want to go for first off as this can affect your battle-line units. Then all that is left is to fill it up, luckily as mentioned above this can contain pretty much every death unit currently.

The only things that change per legion is Battle-line units, Relics, Command Traits and possibly your general.

Your Battlelines are-

Death/Legion of Blood/Sacrament/Night- Zombies, Skeletons, Dire Wolves
Nighthaunt- Spirit Hosts, Hex Wraiths
Soulblight- Blood Knights
Grand Host of Nagash- Morghasts (If Nagash is general), Graveguard, Skeletons, Dire Wolves, Zombies.
Flesh Eaters- Ghouls, Flayers/Horrors (Relevant Courtier as general)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/23 21:05:57


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Okay - that is super helpful - thank you! Since there is significant overlap, I can find myself with quite a few choices just by bringing Nagash and a few squads of skeletons + grave guards.

The only thing is that if i wanted to go Night Haunt, Hex Wraiths would offer me some extra efficiency in that I could optionally drop a unit of skeletons. Although, I'm not convinced that would be a wise decision, screening units & objective swarmers apply in generally everything.

I can't imagine running Nagash and not making him my general.

Any overall advice when looking at the relics & command traits? I do not have them committed to memory, now that i have a better understanding of how easily i can get any of these i'll have to take a more careful read through at home.

My immediate reaction would be to take things that protect Nagash since he is such a heavy points investment.

I think I will magnetize the characters in their respective saddles. That would be very easy, and i have some thin magnets that will do the trick nicely! To be completely honest double sided tape would work fine, too. This is one model where even though the cost is not back breaking, the time spent painting it is significant and it must be pre-painted in portions, making magnetization a worthy endeavor. The only thing is - would i ever find myself running more than one of those 3 heroes in a given list? I can't imagine doing that, considering that would be the entire list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, can someone explain how spells work?

I see that Nagash, and others, can cast far more spells than the number of spells that they know.

In an example, at his best, Nagash can cast an extra 5 spells. But, he only knows a few spells. I see that if you go with a Grand Host you can pick 3 extra spells for him.

It seems strange though as this is also true for Arkhan. He can cast extra spells.

Can someone explain this? Am i reading it right, that they only know what is listed on their datasheet? I also don't see a base number of spells per wizard.

Finally, if i use the ability to refill squads that have lost models, does this count for reinforcement points? I don't see this clearly spelled out in my codex. So if i use Nagash's ability to restore dead models to a squad, does that cost points? I also have a command ability to recreate a slain squad with him. I'm assuming this costs points? Or something? Not entirely clear.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 03:14:10


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Small Wyrm of Slaanesh





Spoiler:
the only thing is that if i wanted to go Night Haunt, Hex Wraiths would offer me some extra efficiency in that I could optionally drop a unit of skeletons. Although, I'm not convinced that would be a wise decision, screening units & objective swarmers apply in generally everything.


I know when I posted a list above I put spirit hosts in a legion list as they would help your problem of tackling the 2+ save stormcast, as they barely do any wounds that aren't mortal unlike the wraiths so they won't proc the heal as much.

But right now I think nighthaunt are a force best played by themselves as they currently need the herald and deepstrike to be effective and he's not in the legion's of nagash, nor is their behemoth the mourngul.
Regardless the hexeraiths and spirits both have their place in a. Casual list running legions. And my opinion on this may change as without allies they have no access to summoning/replacing currently. Theyre also rumoured to have an update coming up.

Spoiler:
can't imagine running Nagash and not making him my general.

Any overall advice when looking at the relics & command traits? I do not have them committed to memory, now that i have a better understanding of how easily i can get any of these i'll have to take a more careful read through at home.

My immediate reaction would be to take things that protect Nagash since he is such a heavy points investment


If you run the Grand host of Nagash amd include Nagash in your army he MUST be your general. He doesn't have to be if you run generic grand allegiance death but I can't see why you'd want to, there is no benefit.

With the lists I posted 2 posts ago the formation lets you pass wounds to morghasts nearby nagash this is a good formation to keep him alove, with the benefit of them being great in general.

You get one command ability (if using nagash as general ignore this as he has his own)

You get one command trait for free, however named characters cannot have these so if nagash is your general you lose the ability to take one. This mainly applies if you're playing pure death rattle as there is some good stuff in there for them.

Similarly named characters cannot have artifacts, so this will be dropped onto your spare leader units I.e necromancer , vampire or Wight king. If you have many skeletons in your list I'd reccomend the diadem on a necromancer which gives skeletons or graveguard two 6+ fnp against any type of wounds! Or if you want to try mess over a specific hero the hourglass which is ranged mortal wounds could be god I your situation to stop the +1 to save stuff from the stormcast guy.



Spoiler:
think I will magnetize the characters in their respective saddles. That would be very easy, and i have some thin magnets that will do the trick nicely! To be completely honest double sided tape would work fine, too. This is one model where even though the cost is not back breaking, the time spent painting it is significant and it must be pre-painted in portions, making magnetization a worthy endeavor. The only thing is - would i ever find myself running more than one of those 3 heroes in a given list? I can't imagine doing that, considering that would be the entire list.


In 2k probably not, although for casual 2 together would probably do fine in any combination , you'd struggle to fit one (probably Arkhan) alongside nagash let alone 2.



Spoiler:
can someone explain how spells work?

I see that Nagash, and others, can cast far more spells than the number of spells that they know.

In an example, at his best, Nagash can cast an extra 5 spells. But, he only knows a few spells. I see that if you go with a Grand Host you can pick 3 extra spells for him.

It seems strange though as this is also true for Arkhan. He can cast extra spells.

Can someone explain this? Am i reading it right, that they only know what is listed on their datasheet? I also don't see a base number of spells per wizard.



Nagash knows 4 spells base, his unique 2, the 2 everybody has (bolt, shield) and has access to 3 spells from legions which puts him at 7 spells. However nagash gains every death wizards on the battlefield spells for himself also which puts him at way above 8 the second you take another wizard.

Best in mind you cant cast the same spell more then once except in open play so you could either use the wizard or nagash to cast a spell dependant on situation.

I can't remember about Arkhan right now but I'm sire he has access to a good few as hes a pretty good caster.

Wizards always know shield and bolt and their unique spell on their data sheet however if in one of the legions all death wizards gain another spell from the appropriate table (death if necromancer, vampire if.....vampire)

Spoiler:
, if i use the ability to refill squads that have lost models, does this count for reinforcement points? I don't see this clearly spelled out in my codex. So if i use Nagash's ability to restore dead models to a squad, does that cost points? I also have a command ability to recreate a slain squad with him. I'm assuming this costs points? Or something? Not entirely clear.


No, this does not cost anything in the case of new death. You cannot return them above starting size either.

The exception is flesh eater courts units (Ab ghoul king, one courtier?) who can still use old style summoning and therefore adhere to the old rules, however most? courtiers function in the same sense as the new nagash summoning rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 11:42:41


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Does Nagash get that +3 if you are a part of Grand Host, or is that always a +3? I don't see why i wouldn't run him as a part of grand host.

The ability to fully revive an eliminated skeleton squad at no points seems pretty cool.

So even Arcane Bolt can't be cast more than once? In 40k you can cast smite numerous times, it just becomes more difficult to succeed.

Is it safe to assume that every wizard can cast a total of base 3 spells?

Is there any specific benefit to making Nagash my general?

Also, modeling update:

I've started building Arkhan/Neferrata/Carstein (forget all the spellings!). I've realized that much of the dragon is easier to paint if it is painted before it is built by in large. I've glued some of it together into pieces, and base coated them in white. I can already tell this is the right call. This guy would be insanely difficult to paint if you built him first.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 16:18:39


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Small Wyrm of Slaanesh





Nagash only gets the +3 spells in grand host I believe I don't have the book to and right now but would always get at least +1 from death.

Arcane bolt is indeed the same and can't be cast more then once which limits mortal wounds a little more.

Unless it says otherwise like Arkhan and Nagash all wizards cast only one spell a turn

I doubt you will ever see Nagash outside of the grand host, and you will always want him as your general his command ability gives rerolls of 1 to hit and saves to your entire army! Considering he can have a 2+ save easily rerolling ones and a 4+ against mortal wounds he can be quite durable.

Make sure to double check the gravesites rules regarding the summoning of whole units , that one may cost points I csnt quite recall the exact wording on that portion of it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 16:34:31


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 Moogypies wrote:
Nagash only gets the +3 spells in grand host I believe I don't have the book to and right now but would always get at least +1 from death.

Arcane bolt is indeed the same and can't be cast more then once which limits mortal wounds a little more.

Unless it says otherwise like Arkhan and Nagash all wizards cast only one spell a turn

I doubt you will ever see Nagash outside of the grand host, and you will always want him as your general his command ability gives rerolls of 1 to hit and saves to your entire army! Considering he can have a 2+ save easily rerolling ones and a 4+ against mortal wounds he can be quite durable.

Make sure to double check the gravesites rules regarding the summoning of whole units , that one may cost points I csnt quite recall the exact wording on that portion of it


Okay yeah, Gravesites setting up a whole new unit would cost reinforcement points. Whereas restoring slain models to a living squad is free.

Ah okay, so only the general can use command abilities. That makes sense. And, that is better than the artefacts and bonuses from command traits.

I can see why people would want larger squads of skeletons and other bodies on the table. Once they're eliminated, you can't bring them back, but as long as one model hangs on, you can restore quite a bit. Nagash brings back 3 wounds to 5 squads in Grand Host... if you had another guy doing that like Arkhan that's expected 5 per squad per turn. Good luck killing skeletons with that going on.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Larger units of skeletons are also cheaper, and when you run the probabiliity math, their bonuses for being so large is grossly more than the amount of poiints you pay for them.
   
Made in gb
Small Wyrm of Slaanesh





To fully revive a model you must roll above or equal to their wounds on the d3 I.e you need 2 to revive a hexwraiths or 3 to revive a spirit host on a single roll . No bringing back a 1 wound host.

Necromancers are an easy way to get more repopulation going on as is staying by gravesites
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 auticus wrote:
Larger units of skeletons are also cheaper, and when you run the probabiliity math, their bonuses for being so large is grossly more than the amount of poiints you pay for them.


This also gives a real reason to take the 2" spears... I kind of like this.

Although, I'm not sure i'll run another horde style army with skeletons. I'll probably have 1 unit of skeletons, 1 unit of grave guards, and 1 unit of Morghasts for my battle lines.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Small Wyrm of Slaanesh





 Marmatag wrote:
 auticus wrote:
Larger units of skeletons are also cheaper, and when you run the probabiliity math, their bonuses for being so large is grossly more than the amount of poiints you pay for them.


This also gives a real reason to take the 2" spears... I kind of like this.

Although, I'm not sure i'll run another horde style army with skeletons. I'll probably have 1 unit of skeletons, 1 unit of grave guards, and 1 unit of Morghasts for my battle lines.


Basic skellies are usually always given the spear option

With those unit choices its probably worth fitting in another deathrattle unit and taking "The First Cohort" Battalion which automatically gives Nagash a result of 3 wounds restored per unit he selects.

Unfortunately deathrattle units are usually more suited towards hordes.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Well my Tyranid army has like 150 models at 2000 points.

I don't mind running 60 models. That's not a big deal.

I figured doing 1 ~20 man skeleton unit, 1 ~20 man grave guard unit.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I'd advise a 40 man skeleton unit. The point discount plus the buff to their hit rolls makes them insane. Plus you can heal the unit.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 auticus wrote:
I'd advise a 40 man skeleton unit. The point discount plus the buff to their hit rolls makes them insane. Plus you can heal the unit.


Wouldn't i be better off with a 30 man grave guard unit?

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




The discount from the skeletons gives them a minor edge in probability calculations in terms of their efficiency point to point.

You can succeed with grave guard, its just that while they are giving the brainless steep discount to skeletons that they are giving, the skeletons defensive efficiency is higher, giving them a higher grade overall if thats what you are building toward.

[Thumb - Capture.JPG]

   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

I'm not sure what calculation you're doing to get those numbers, but I think I get the idea behind it.

1. The most points-efficient grouping of 4 squads of skeletons is as one big unit of 40, because the last squad receives a 50% discount.

2. The most attacks per skeleton come when the 4 groups of skeletons are in one big unit, as this raises the attack count of all the skeletons.

Having played Tyranids for some time, I have run Hormagants and Termagants in blobs of 30. Even with a 6" pile in and a 6" consolidate with Hormagants, as well as 8" of movement, it is immensely difficult to get all of the Hormagants in range to fight.

You do save 40 points, but it also comes at a cost - you have to spend 240 points before you can realize this discount. Further, the scope of the skeleton squad is limited in that it must move and remain in coherency as one gigantic unit. Finally, abilities that restore summonable units per turn are restricted to units, so the potential healing per round is reduced in effectiveness.

I see myself more likely to run 2x Squads of 20. The primary focus of a unit like this, for me, is to (a) control objectives and (b) employ general area denial principles, and (c) act as a tarpit. With 2 squads of 20 i can control 2 objectives far more easily, i can deny more board area, and i can tarpit more units, while also healing double the skeletons per turn. Lastly, 2 squads of 20 fill out 2x battleline requirements, rather than 1 for x40.

Of course, I'm still a total AOS newb, and this could be off base. I just don't see myself winning with volumes of dice like this. Hormagants are amazingly effective at dying, preventing action, and holding objectives. I feel the same principle applies here.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Small Wyrm of Slaanesh





 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not sure what calculation you're doing to get those numbers, but I think I get the idea behind it.

1. The most points-efficient grouping of 4 squads of skeletons is as one big unit of 40, because the last squad receives a 50% discount.

2. The most attacks per skeleton come when the 4 groups of skeletons are in one big unit, as this raises the attack count of all the skeletons.

Having played Tyranids for some time, I have run Hormagants and Termagants in blobs of 30. Even with a 6" pile in and a 6" consolidate with Hormagants, as well as 8" of movement, it is immensely difficult to get all of the Hormagants in range to fight.

You do save 40 points, but it also comes at a cost - you have to spend 240 points before you can realize this discount. Further, the scope of the skeleton squad is limited in that it must move and remain in coherency as one gigantic unit. Finally, abilities that restore summonable units per turn are restricted to units, so the potential healing per round is reduced in effectiveness.

I see myself more likely to run 2x Squads of 20. The primary focus of a unit like this, for me, is to (a) control objectives and (b) employ general area denial principles, and (c) act as a tarpit. With 2 squads of 20 i can control 2 objectives far more easily, i can deny more board area, and i can tarpit more units, while also healing double the skeletons per turn. Lastly, 2 squads of 20 fill out 2x battleline requirements, rather than 1 for x40.

Of course, I'm still a total AOS newb, and this could be off base. I just don't see myself winning with volumes of dice like this. Hormagants are amazingly effective at dying, preventing action, and holding objectives. I feel the same principle applies here.


A single 40 man Skeleton unit is found widely in most semi competitive death lists, however if i'm to throw another unit into the mix to consider;-

Dire Wolves are currently enjoying much play due to them having 2 wounds a piece, coming in blocks of 5 with a decent movement stat and being cheap to boot. These are you objective snatchers and fast screens currently, and would certainly fill up that battleline happily along with the Skeletons.

The problem being right now the Grand Host is very very numbers and battle of attrition based, you're going to want those large blobs to keep repopulating. Right now you may think 20 skeletons will survive, but when you come up against stronger ranged units or they focus a group, 20 Skeletons will turn to dust pretty quick and then they can't be repopulated at all. Not to mention to not forget about battleshock with smaller units, this obviously hurts us less with Bravery 10, and if you take Nagash him giving immunity, but strong units like Skyfires will wipe a block of 40 skeletons a turn easy if given the chance, let alone 20.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Okay, so the scale by which people deal damage in this game is a bit different from 40k. The thought of killing 40 models in 1 turn takes a significant amount of firepower... It is certainly not something I would consider commonplace.

Do you use grave sites to deep strike your Skeletons? Or just set them up with the knowledge they'll get pasted?

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Small Wyrm of Slaanesh





 Marmatag wrote:
Okay, so the scale by which people deal damage in this game is a bit different from 40k. The thought of killing 40 models in 1 turn takes a significant amount of firepower... It is certainly not something I would consider commonplace.

Do you use grave sites to deep strike your Skeletons? Or just set them up with the knowledge they'll get pasted?


Its not the most commonplace but depends on what your local area uses, hopefully you wont have that many Tzeentch players Outside of those not much is likely to mulch your stuff that quick without significant focus, especially if theyre not building competitive and those 2+save rerolling stormcast where just co-incidence.

It depends on battleplan, opponent and army.

For Grand Host of Nagash I'd usually just deploy them, as it has no real fast heroes to get to an advance gravesite to pull them up.

Legion of Night,and Blood there's a good case to put stuff in the grave. Sacrament could go either way.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I'm finishing up an app that lets you write up battle reports and include the statistics. It breaks down all the probabilities. I use it to load balance the games I write.

The numbers you are seeing are average number of wounds that can be inflicted per turn and average number of wounds the warscroll can soak up before being removed combined with their efficiency (how many points they cost vs what they can do... a model that is awesome but costs a lot is not as efficient as a model that is awesome and also severely undercost) which comes up with the total score I used.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 22:05:57


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

In regards to the Sigmar guy - i would assume not a lot of research was done. I imagine he looked at his codex and identified all of the ways he can deal mortal wounds and be ultra survivable.. and is pasting a list together with that in mind.

I would expect his army to have a high number of mortal wounds. Which is why I also am fine playing with skeletons... they're the perfect targets for mortal wounds.

My loose plan, thus far:

Nagash
Arkhan
30x Grave guard
30x Skeletons
2x Morghast Harbingers /w Halberds

Essentially the Harbingers and Arkhan do targeted heavy lifting. Nagash just casts spells and heals things. My understanding is that i can summon the Harbingers and get a 3d6 charge out of "deep strike."

Arkhan is probably not that smart of a choice, I could bring a mortis engine and a necromancer instead, but, i already have him, so i'll play him a bit.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




If you're playing even semi-competitively then yeah... spamming mortal wounds is pretty much one of the holy cornerstones of AOS.
   
Made in gb
Small Wyrm of Slaanesh





 Marmatag wrote:
In regards to the Sigmar guy - i would assume not a lot of research was done. I imagine he looked at his codex and identified all of the ways he can deal mortal wounds and be ultra survivable.. and is pasting a list together with that in mind.

I would expect his army to have a high number of mortal wounds. Which is why I also am fine playing with skeletons... they're the perfect targets for mortal wounds.

My loose plan, thus far:

Nagash
Arkhan
30x Grave guard
30x Skeletons
2x Morghast Harbingers /w Halberds

Essentially the Harbingers and Arkhan do targeted heavy lifting. Nagash just casts spells and heals things. My understanding is that i can summon the Harbingers and get a 3d6 charge out of "deep strike."

Arkhan is probably not that smart of a choice, I could bring a mortis engine and a necromancer instead, but, i already have him, so i'll play him a bit.


Looks good to me, but you WILL want the necromancers unique spell for a block of 30 grave guard getting to pile in twice and attack is huge with them , especially with the great blades. You also then can use your artifact instead of wasting it by not using it and give those grave guard more saves!

See the twitch tv game yesterday where they minced the idoneth big leader and his pals in one turn

Keeping it close to yours I'd reccomend -

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament
Nagash Supreme Lord Of The Undead
Necromancer
30 x Grave Guard
- Great Wight Blades
10 x Dire Wolves
2 x Morghast Harbingers

Nagash can abuse his giant positives to casting to get so many different spells off and dont forget he can take vampire ones too not just death!

Your necromancer gives pile in and attack to your gg , you have a block of wolves to take objectives quick and Arkhan can do is distraction tactics amd curse of years to take care of those pesky cavalry.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

That necromancer power is amazing. For some reason I thought Nagash could take it! But you're right being able to pile in and go choppy is really good in the psychic phase.

How do you protect the necromancer from ranged attacks? Can't anyone target anything in Sigmar regardless of wounds? (I mean, i know LOS blocking terrain is a thing of course but just wondering if that's something you can rely on in AOS).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 auticus wrote:
If you're playing even semi-competitively then yeah... spamming mortal wounds is pretty much one of the holy cornerstones of AOS.


Well i'm okay with him having a "competitive list," i will just need to adapt a bit. Nagash, Arkhan can spit out decent mortal wounds per turn.

Like me, he likes the big cool models. He'll be running a Stardrake. So any unit i bring with less than 6 wounds or a way to save mortal wounds will definitely be dead in 2 hero phases.


Are Fenrisian wolves an acceptable "counts-as" for dire wolves?

Also do you bother with a hornblower in grave guard squads? seems like overkill, and i wouldn't want to lose the attack with a great wight blade.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/04/26 16:19:30


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
 
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