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 Lion of Caliban wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
Yep. Firing plasma with a -1 (say if it's heavy and you moved then fired), A 2 counts as a 1. If you do that but at a flyer, then a 1,2 or 3 will all cause the overheat.

Furthermore, it's theoretically possible to hit and still take damage from an overcharge!

This can happen when firing overwatch and overcharging if there is a -5 to the roll. Modifiers do not determine whether a hit is scored in overwatch, but they are still applied to the roll. So in this instance a 6 is a hit, but also kills the firer!

I wasn't aware of that. Do you have the rule? I'm aware I'm probably going to look stupid for not knowing. But I just don't recall the rule of overwatch imposing a -5 to hit. Only that it is a shooting attack that requires a 6 to hit.

Overwatch doesn't impose a -5 to hit, I'm saying IF you have a -5 to hit and fire overcharged plasma on overwatch then this happens.

It's why I said theoretically, because it's so niche it's unlikely to come up in a real game! But it is RAW.

You'd need something like your target is Dark Angels character with the Eye of the Unseen (-1), within 6" of a Darkshroud (-1), you have had the Dark Angel psychic power Aversion used on the firing unit (-1), you're firing a Plasma Cannon after moving (-1) AND your mission has night fighting rules that are still in affect (-1). And on top of all that you decide to overcharge :p

 Lion of Caliban wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
Yep. Firing plasma with a -1 (say if it's heavy and you moved then fired), A 2 counts as a 1. If you do that but at a flyer, then a 1,2 or 3 will all cause the overheat.

Furthermore, it's theoretically possible to hit and still take damage from an overcharge!

This can happen when firing overwatch and overcharging if there is a -5 to the roll. Modifiers do not determine whether a hit is scored in overwatch, but they are still applied to the roll. So in this instance a 6 is a hit, but also kills the firer!

I wasn't aware of that. Do you have the rule? I'm aware I'm probably going to look stupid for not knowing. But I just don't recall the rule of overwatch imposing a -5 to hit. Only that it is a shooting attack that requires a 6 to hit.

That's because it is Just a rule that it requires a 6+ to hit. the rule is part of overwatch itself. A -5 modifier would mean no unit could ever hit as even BS2+ would only hit on a 7+ as there is no upper limit for dice rolls. on overwatch, there are no modifiers taken into consideration, its part of the overwatch rule itself that modifiers do not take part in the roll so you can only blow up on a natural 1.

Furthermore to the whole -1 meaning you blow up on a 2+, consider this scenario:

Guardsmen Vance is charging his plasmagun to fire at an accursed T'au Stealthsuit. He has the vile Xeno warrior in his sights and is carefully aiming his shot to secure the kill. However, the Xenos stealth field is making tracking it difficult, he adjusts his aim to compensate for the movement to the left, but did it? He checks the original position and tries to discern if it is still there, he quickly reasons that it's not and readjusts his aim to it's true target. Releasing his held breath, he mutters praise to the emperor before releasing the trigger... Or he would, had the weapon not suffered a catastrophic overheat and exploded, bathing him with molten metal and searing plasma as the Weapons priming chamber erupts into an iridescent blue fireball...

It's not necessarily that the weapon becomes less reliable, it's human error that causes it. Extended times lining up shots or not being aware of how long they have been charging the weapon.

He means that the -5 to hit modifiers exists on something that you are going to overwatch anyways. Not that overwatch imposes a -5 to hit.

But ultimately, people need to realize there is a simple profile in plasma that does not explode. And this is precisely the reason that plasma is so cheap compared to other special weapons. Because some times you have to go for the low profile.

If you overcharge during overwatch, the modifiers apply for that even if you don't apply modifiers to see if it hits. If you start stacking things like moving with a heavy weapon, supersonic Alaitoc flyer and (IIRC) some stratagems, or Alaitoc in cover with some other special abilities and stratagems,, someone worked a way for there to be a -5 for you to hurt yourself with the plasma rolling a 6 on overwatch, even it you hit.

 doctortom wrote:
If you overcharge during overwatch, the modifiers apply for that even if you don't apply modifiers to see if it hits. If you start stacking things like moving with a heavy weapon, supersonic Alaitoc flyer and (IIRC) some stratagems, or Alaitoc in cover with some other special abilities and stratagems,, someone worked a way for there to be a -5 for you to hurt yourself with the plasma rolling a 6 on overwatch, even it you hit.

Don't overcharge then honestly, choosing to overcharge on such an occasion would be extremely fluffy and stupid at the same time. Like a final "frack you" button. The "I'm taking you with me" response if you have it.

And, if you are more sinister, it could be an amazing strategy. Choosing to overcharge so that you deliberately kill 4-5 of your own guys, which then could be removed from the front and make a potential charge impossible to reach.

If you had that a 1 always fails (and less than one also does), are there any issues with allowing minus numbers at the moment?

Top of my head I can't think of any situations where you'd be forced to subtract a stat modified into a negative from some dice roll to turn it into a buff.

Unless there's a few odd cases where a charging unit could get forced back against a unit that was protected with a -3 move debuff

From the Designer's Commentary:

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?

A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the -1 penalty for moving if you moved during the previous movement phase? If so, it would be impossible to fire overwatch with that penalty as you would not have moved in the preceding movement phase.

 Lion of Caliban wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
Yep. Firing plasma with a -1 (say if it's heavy and you moved then fired), A 2 counts as a 1. If you do that but at a flyer, then a 1,2 or 3 will all cause the overheat.

Furthermore, it's theoretically possible to hit and still take damage from an overcharge!

This can happen when firing overwatch and overcharging if there is a -5 to the roll. Modifiers do not determine whether a hit is scored in overwatch, but they are still applied to the roll. So in this instance a 6 is a hit, but also kills the firer!

I wasn't aware of that. Do you have the rule? I'm aware I'm probably going to look stupid for not knowing. But I just don't recall the rule of overwatch imposing a -5 to hit. Only that it is a shooting attack that requires a 6 to hit.

That isn't what he is saying. He is saying if you fire overwatch and have a -5 to hit for other reasons, you'll both hit and explode on a 6, which is the truth.

 Happyjew wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the -1 penalty for moving if you moved during the previous movement phase? If so, it would be impossible to fire overwatch with that penalty as you would not have moved in the preceding movement phase.

Absolutely. EDIT: not. The rule is if the model moved it the models last movement phase. So if you move, then pass to your opponent's turn, you still get a penalty in that turn.

So if you moved in your turn and then fire overwatch with an overcharged plasma weapon then:

1-2 is a miss and the gun explodes (because the 2 is modified to a 1)
3-5 is just a miss
6 is a hit (because a 6 is always a hit on overwatch, regardless of modifiers)

Tristanleo wrote:
Furthermore to the whole -1 meaning you blow up on a 2+, consider this scenario:

Guardsmen Vance is charging his plasmagun to fire at an accursed T'au Stealthsuit. He has the vile Xeno warrior in his sights and is carefully aiming his shot to secure the kill. However, the Xenos stealth field is making tracking it difficult, he adjusts his aim to compensate for the movement to the left, but did it? He checks the original position and tries to discern if it is still there, he quickly reasons that it's not and readjusts his aim to it's true target. Releasing his held breath, he mutters praise to the emperor before releasing the trigger... Or he would, had the weapon not suffered a catastrophic overheat and exploded, bathing him with molten metal and searing plasma as the Weapons priming chamber erupts into an iridescent blue fireball...

It's not necessarily that the weapon becomes less reliable, it's human error that causes it. Extended times lining up shots or not being aware of how long they have been charging the weapon.

Yeah okay - I'll buy that

 Happyjew wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the -1 penalty for moving if you moved during the previous movement phase? If so, it would be impossible to fire overwatch with that penalty as you would not have moved in the preceding movement phase.

Ynnari charging on your turn would be one way

I think you missed the crux of my argument. Instead of thinking up clever quips and insults, or assuming about my likes or dislikes I play the rule as it is. I don’t imagine shots fired or any anecdotal explanation of why it is.

I was pointing out that.

That in the case of over charged plasma, with a -1 to hit, and a captain or the like nearby , in the same instance count 2’s as 1’s, and 1’s as 2’s.

I think this is where and why people get confused, and would be simpler if the rule for activating any thing where hard numbers.

Anyway I digress.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
Yep. Firing plasma with a -1 (say if it's heavy and you moved then fired), A 2 counts as a 1. If you do that but at a flyer, then a 1,2 or 3 will all cause the overheat.

Furthermore, it's theoretically possible to hit and still take damage from an overcharge!

This can happen when firing overwatch and overcharging if there is a -5 to the roll. Modifiers do not determine whether a hit is scored in overwatch, but they are still applied to the roll. So in this instance a 6 is a hit, but also kills the firer!

I wasn't aware of that. Do you have the rule? I'm aware I'm probably going to look stupid for not knowing. But I just don't recall the rule of overwatch imposing a -5 to hit. Only that it is a shooting attack that requires a 6 to hit.

That isn't what he is saying. He is saying if you fire overwatch and have a -5 to hit for other reasons, you'll both hit and explode on a 6, which is the truth.

Yeah several other people have said that now, and I understand what he meant now. His wording just confused me a little is all.